Bureaucracy formula help... - Page 2

WhiteElephants · June 21, 2001, 15:35

Here are some preliminary testing results:

I choose Miriam and started each base with six population adding a holo theatre, rec common, and scout to offset the drones from having a size six base (-2 drones from the rec common, -2 drones from the holo theatre, and -1 from the scout, +1 for the regular worker = 6 workers). Transcend level, standard map size, and 0 efficiency.

Here's what I observed:

base 7 = 1 drone
base 8 = 2 drones
base 9 = 3 drones
BASE 10 = 6 drones!!!
BASE 11 = 9 drones!!!
BASE 12 = 12 drones!!!

Now this is the kicker!

base 13 = 11 drones +2 bright red super drones (SD's)
base 14 = 10 drones +4 SD's
base 15 = 9 drones +6 SD's
base 16 = 6 drones +10 SD's
base 17 = 3 drones +14 SD's
base 18 = 0 drones +18 SD's

What I mean is that not one base had more than one drone, though some had super drones and all had super drones after base 18 was placed.

base 19 = 0 drones +19 SD's
base 20 = 0 drones +20 SD's
base 21 = 0 drones +21 SD's

and so on, and so forth...

So, what are super drones you ask? Well, there not exactly worth two drones as it only takes one talent to negate it (I tested this by having the Human Genome Project built), yet in order to quell it you need +2 psych from say, a doctor or even allocating some of your labs or energy to psych in the SE screen.

Let me stress that at no point in this experiment did I have more than one drone, be it a regular drone or super drone, in any base. Again, the only difference was that after base 12 I began accumulating super drones, but only one per base.

What I’d like to try tonight is to create size 12 bases and see if I do, in fact, create more than one drone (or super drone) per base. My guess is that I will. I’m also wondering if, or at what point a base begins adding super drones. For instance, do I get two drones when I place base 13 or do I get one super drone, or do I get a super drone and a regular drone when I place down base 19 or do I get three regular drones?

What this experiment also suggests is that you could infinitely place bases and only get one drone, or super drone, as long as you keep the base to size 6 with the scout, rec common, and holo theatre. It also shows that bureaucracy drones only “convert” one worker under the protection of drone reducing facilities and police. If this were not true I would have seen more than one drone per base that I expect to in a larger sized base. Or perhaps, workers are continually protected from becoming bueracracy drones when protected/quelled by facilities. (I'll try this when I get home by reducing the base to size 5 and removing the scout to see if a drone still appears on the placement of a seventh base, if I can remember to do this tonight).

PS – Ned, if you don’t already know there is a bug with the calculation of drones that are represented in the base screen. Use the F4 citizen list to check drones. I also conceed that I was wrong about the addition of a single drone for every base past the sixth. As I found out it is only at the mid way point between the second warning that you only get one drone, after that three until you reach twelve where I believe that process starts over again in a somewhat similar fashion.

More later...

Ned · June 21, 2001, 22:00

WE, What I did is simply build up to size 4 bases, no facilities, psych or police and observe the F4 screen.

Bases 0-6 each have two content workers and two drones. I take that as a "base" figure. Thus the same base with 1 content worker and three drones has an "added" drone; and the same base with all drones has 2 extra drones; the same base with 4 drones, with one super drone, has 3 extra, and with two super drones, 4 extra.

I then look at the F4 screen count drones by first subtracting 2 from what I see with a size 4 base.

That said, your data seems to confirm mine. See the table where in addition to counting the drones, I noted which base numbers from founding the extra drones occured. The pattern was consistent and was repeatable. First extra drone appears in base 2. The next in 2 + b/w, which if it is 6, means base 8. The next in 2 + 2 * b/w, or base 14. Etc. Inspection of the table should yield the general formula.

Tonight I also did the following: I added a 25th base, got the b/w and observed 3 b-drones in all 25 bases, plus a fourth b-drone in bases 2, 8, 14 and 20. This is consistent with the pattern.

I then gave base 24 away. All remaining 23 bases continue to have 3 b-drones, just as if I still had 24 bases. I then added the next base, got the b/w!, with the results the same as if I had just founded base 25! even though I had only 24 bases.

I also, with 24 bases, boosted the efficiency first to +2 and then to + 4. The drones dropped just as if the b/w crossovers had changed. This was entirely expected. The total drones at +2 eff. dropped from 72 (3 per base) to 40, and to 24 at +4. The latter is number is consistent with the 24th base being at just below the second b/w, which it is at +4 efficiency. The +4 eff. b/w is 12.

What I would like to do next is add Children's Creches and Psych to see how they effect b/w's, if at all.

WhiteElephants · June 21, 2001, 22:57

Ned -- I think that in your example you should have 3 drones and one worker for a size 4 base on transcend, typo?

Anyhow, what I gather from your post you lost are workers at one point, correct? Bur you only had one to lose anyway, right? Since at transcend level you should have a drone after the the first worker.

What I'm wondering is whether or not you ever lose more that one worker to bueracracy drones, which seems to be supported by our tests, though inconclusive so far. The pattern I think I see is that one worker is changed to a regular drone per base, then it's upgraded to a super drone, then at that point your other drones begin to be changed to super drones. But, in my case I had no other drones, save the one from bueracracy, so after that was upgraded to a super drone no other drones were accumulated.

Ned · June 22, 2001, 01:24

WE, I think the SE was set on Transcend. Regardless, until six bases, all bases had two content workers and one drone. Therefore, any reduction in the number of content workers is due to the addition of a b-drone.

I had to increase bases up to size four to see four b-drones. This means in a size four base, there are two dark and two bright red drones. If the same base is only size 3, you see two dark and one red. So my conclusion is that a non captured base must have at least two dark drones, and every other drone can be a bright red super drone. So if a base potentially has 4 b-drones, you cannot see all of them until the base size is 4.

I also played with Children's Creches (no effect), Biology Labs (no effect), and Psych. Only the latter has an effect on drones. Every 2 Psych eliminates one drone.

I think we should now work on a general formula for b-drones. The pattern is very clear and repeatable. So if we deduce the rule, on can accurately predict exactly which bases will be hit with drones on the next base founding.

Ned

WhiteElephants · June 22, 2001, 18:12

I ran the test with size twelve population bases with holo theatres, rec commons, and a scout. One top of that I created three doctors, which changed my population to: 2 talents, 5 workers, 2 drones, and 3 doctors. Miriam, Transcend, Standard Map, 0 efficiency.

I went from 6 bases to 12 bases without a single drone created. BUT, upon placing my 13th base instead of creating a drone or super drone I lost two talents changing my poulation mixture it two of my bases to 1 talent, 6 workers, 2 drones, and 3 doctors. As expected, by the time a placed my 18th base I had lost one talent per base.

Then I went on to place the 19th through 24th and the same thing occured, so by the time I placed the 24th I had no talents leaving my population in each base to look like this: 7 workers, 2 drones, and 3 doctors.

It was only after placing the 25th base that I started accumulating drones, not super drones. The bases then looked like this: 6 workers, 3 drones, 3 doctors.

Another thing I noticed was that +2 psych didn't always create a talent as the data links suggest. In fact, it appeared as though I needed +4 psych in most instances to create one talent, except for the first talent created and that was only when more than one of the population was a worker.

I also noticed, as you have, that the drones appear in predictable bases, though I didn't bother to jot them down.

What I'm suggesting is that the bueracracy drones aren't neccessarily created by going over your efficiecny warning, but are the by product of some negative number applied to psych rating on a per base standard. Otherwise I would have accumulated drones in the above test, but what was actually happening was the reduction of talents, which are created by psych, so therefore I believe that the effects of breeching your base limit is a reduction to your psych rating. Of course if you have zero, which you had in your tests, you would generate drones.

I was also incorrect about the way drones and super drones are handled. The only way to get rid of drones is through facilities or changing them into specialists. Psych doesn't remove drones it only creates talents. So, adding a doctor is reducing drones only because that drone is changed into a talent, not because it creates +2 psych.

It is my belief that we're missing some psych formula and I have no clue as to how to go about creating one. Anyone else have anything to add? I'm at my wits end here. Help!

Edited out some typos.

Ned · June 22, 2001, 18:43

WE, I think we are on the same page here. When we speak of b-drones, we speak of a negative shift of one "happiness" level of a worker. Workers can range from bright red super drones to bright white talents. So, going from a talent to a content worker is the same as going from a content worker to a drone or from a drone to a super drone.

In the table I gave with a b/w at 6, the first b-drone as you pass any b/w occured in base 2. Other drones appeared in every base that in a multiple of the b/w, plus 2, i.e., 2, 8, 14, 20.

The next series of drones occur in bases one less than the previous base number, 7, 13, 19, with the exception of base 1. This process continues continues until all bases have one b-drone at the border of the next b/w, with base no. 1 receiving a b-drone in the last step.

I will attempt to verify whether the pattern with a six b/w holds for other numbers, particular if then number is an odd number.

If you or anyone could phrase this in terms of a formula, I woud appreciate the help.

Ned

Ned

WhiteElephants · June 22, 2001, 19:08

Exactly, so when the datalinks states that surpassing your base limit creates drones that would only be half-truth, as what it seems to do is create negative psych. The only instance in which drones are created are when you don't have any value left in your psych "pool" so to speak.

What I don't know is the negative psych value of a bueracracy drone and a super drone for that matter. My guess is -1 for a drone and -2 for a super drone, which our data seems to support.

One way I think this could be tested is if you create a thinker specialist (+1 psych and +3 labs) in a base under the first bueracracy limit. Then exceed that bueracracy limit till your reach the second warning and see if that base has a drone created in it or if it remains the same. My guess is that it remains the same, snd the other eleven base would each have one drone added to them, but if I'm wrong then we're still missing something. If I'm right, and the base remains the same, then what we are observing is a -1 psych doled out after the first bueracracy warning, and a -2 at the second, and so on, which would explain why my population didn't change after the first warning in my most recent test with the bases with twelve population points.

cbn · June 22, 2001, 23:43

Good stuff here gang.

I have one question though. Ned seems to consistently use examples where a population of 2 is content on transcend without psych, police or facilities and before consideration of b drones. Which faction are you using as a test faction? I suspect you are using Domai's Drones which get 1 more content worker versus all other factions. This should not impact the rest of your theories but does give a moment of pause where I say " How come he gets two content workers on transcend?"

You guys have piqued my interest on this enough that I am going to have to do some testing myself. Knowing where that dreaded b drone will show up would be such a great help. Ned's theories may make sense of something I had long considered random and help avoid unnecessary drone riots.

Ned · June 23, 2001, 02:22

CBN, By G*d, you're right! I am using Domai! I had no idea that he had one more content worker.

WE, I believe you and I are talking about the same thing. I run my tests from bases with no police, no psych or anything else that may affect the results. Once I know where the b-drones are, then I apply pysch, (using E and orbital satellites) unit by unit until the drone switches. I think that the super drones may switch at 1 pysch, and a regular drone switches a 2.

What we need to do is see if the pattern we have with a 6 b/w holds for other levels, particularly odd b/w levels.

Ned

cbn · June 23, 2001, 07:46

Ned
The Drone faction gets an extra content worker which is why I love them so. But it does throw off the numbers a little in drone calculations if the reader is unaware of the faction used.

I have bumped up an old thread that may be helpful --"Talent Creation". In particular in an early post, Tau Ceti puts forth the order in which psych reduces superdrones to drones, creates talents etc. There is also some commentary on b drones . Much of it seems to fit in with this discussion.

Ned · June 23, 2001, 18:04

Below are data for four different B/W's. One can see the pattern, so I did not finish the table with B/W = 18. The first b-drone is either at 2 or 1 + the b/w - 6. Other b-drones begin at offsets of multiples of the b/w from the first. They fill in as bases are added towards the first base. Finally, at the last base before the next b/w, the home base gets an additional b-drone.

Thus, at the end of each b/w sequence, i.e., just before the next b/w, all bases have the number of drones equal to the times one has passed a b/w.

I think we are done.

Code:

Bases	B/W=6
0-6	0
7	2
8	2, 7-8
9	2, 6-8
10	2, 5-8
11	2, 4-8, 10-11
12	1-12
13	1-13, 2, 8
14	1-14, 2. 7-8. 14-15
15	1-15, 2, 6-8, 12-14
16	1-16, 2. 5-8, 11-14
17	1-17, 2,  4-8, 10-14, 16-17
18	1-18 (2)
19	1-19(2), 2, 8, 14
20	1-20(2), 2, 7-8, 13-14, 19-20
21	1-21(2), 2, 6-8, 12-14, 18-20
22	1-22(2), 2, 5-8, 11-14,  17-20
23	1-23(2), 2, 4-8, 10-14, 16-20, 22-23
24	1-24(3)

Code:

	B/W =9
10	4
11	3, 4
12	2- 4, 11, 12
13	2-4, 10-13
14	2-4, 9-13
15	2-4, 8-13
16	2-4,7-13, 16
17	2-4, 6-13, 15-17
18	1-18

Code:

	B/W=12
13	7
14	6-7
15	5-7
16	4-7, 16
17	3-7, 15-17
18	2-7, 14-18
19	2-7, 13-18
20	2-7, 12-19
21	2-7, 11-19
22	2-7, 10-19, 22
23	2-7,9-19, 21-23
24	1-24

Code:

                    B/W=18
19	13
20	12-13
21	11-13
22	10-13
23	9-13
24	8-13
25	7-13, 25
26	6-13, 24-26
27	5-13, 23-27
28	4-13, 22-28
29	3-13, 21-29
30	2-13, 20-30
31	2-13, 19-31

Fitz · June 25, 2001, 20:26

WE, you seem to be looking at this from a strange perspective. Why don't you take the drone situation at the base as standard instead of insisting on 'negative psych'.

Example: Base with 4 citizens, 1 worker, 3 drones normal. at 2x b/w, it would have 4 citizens, 4 drones. at 3x b/w, it would have 3 drones, 1 superdrone. at 4x b/w it would have 2 drones, 2 superdrones.

Now, apply all the psych bonuses from facilities, doctors, & energy to this basis.

Speculation: Reducing drones for a facility (as in reccommons, holotheatre or researchhospital) could reduce a superdrone to a drone, a drone to a worker, but not promote a worker to a talent. I imagine that these would occur before the psych conversion affects the populace.

Ned, are you sure about "supertalents" with bright white backgrounds? That adds a whole new perspective for me.

WhiteElephants · June 25, 2001, 22:36

Fitz -- To tell you the truth I can't even remember how I came to that conclusion. I've given up the battle on this one. I can't seem to figure out why sometimes talents cost 2 psych and other they cost 4. Maybe if I worked through it in the opposite direction it would make sense. Your saying I should apply all the drones first, then apply the modifiers like psych and rec. commons last. Makes sense I suppose. I was looking at it in the oppisite way -- apply rec commons and such, then apply the drones. That's probably how I came up with the negative psych.

So, in essence what you suggesting is that say... a size five base with a rec common, holo theatre, and scout would never experience drone riots correct? In that instance regarless of the modifiers those facilities and that unit would cancel out 5 drones, right?

In my last test I created size three bases with one scout -- two workers and a drone -- but in one base I added a thinker (+1 psych, +3 labs). When I went to twice the base limit all my other bases had one worker and two drones, except the base that I added the thinker to. I assumed that it was because of the +1 psych, but what your suggesting is that the drone was removed from the mix because I effectively turned it into a thinker and then there would have been two drones, but the scout quelled one, right? Makes sense. I should have changed that thinker to a librarian to see if the population mix remained the same.

I'm also guessing that +2 psych only creates a talent when a worker is available (I could swear this isn't true though), otherwise it changes a super drone to a drone, then a drone to a worker.

Ned · June 25, 2001, 23:51

Fitz, What I meant to say is the super white worker is a talent.

Assuming it takes 2 psych per, it would take 6 psych to convert a super drone into a talent

Super -> Drone -> Content -> Talent

Assume, for the same of argument, that all bases had 1 and only one b-drone. On transcend, then, every worker would be a drone. To get this base into GA, you would have to convert every drone to content, and then half the contents to talents. This would take

Pysch(GA) = Base Size * 2 + 1/2 (Base Sise * 2) = 3 * Base size,

Psych. For a size 14 base, this is 42 Psych. This corresponds to my observations.

I believe that Tau Ceti reported that there may be a maximum number of psych that you can use, i.e., two time base size. However, I think it really is something like this

3 * Base Size - 2.

The reason I say this, without having conducted the experiments, is that if I even have one b-drone in a base, I cannot get it into GA with Psych alone (unless I have the HGP). However, I can do so so long as I have no b-drones.

As I said before, GA is the reason we need to understand b-drones, b/c GA + Wealth = +2 economy and also permits Yang, Aki and Sven to Pop Boom.

(BTW, I am currently playing Morgan. I am running Demo, Green, Knowledge and Thought Control and 20% Psych. All bases are in GA. As a result, I have +2 econ, +5 eff, +3 police with Astetic Virtures, +2 Planet and +2 morale. Morgan is a power.)

Ned