Outrageous

BigDork · January 12, 2003, 19:40

Hi all. I was playing last night and things were going good. Well the Aztecs kept cutting through my land to beat up on the Arabs so I told them to leave. So what do they do? Declare war. Morons. Anyway, I ask ole' Hannibal if he wants to get in on the action too. We just fought a war so he was furious with me.

Okay, I'll get to the point. I asked him what he wanted for a military alliance again the Aztecs and he wanted 442gpt, 16550(or something close to that), several strategic resources and luxuries and some tech. Umm...no. Actually I found it kinda funny. Lets say that just as soon as the Aztecs were done I taught Hannibal a thing or two about negotiations.

Anyway, I'm kinda wondering what kind of outrageous demands you all have recieved too.

BigD

Coracle · January 12, 2003, 20:23

Ridiculous and crazy demands and actions from the STUPID Diplomatic AI are typical in Civ 3.

I hated it when I would cut a good deal with a civ, and then, as a FREE BONUS, throw in SIX resources. The AI would insult me and cancel the deal. All that based on some alleged thing I did a thousand years earlier that caused a reputation hit (I never did it, actually). How stupid of the AI.

Cyclotron · January 12, 2003, 21:05

C, your argument is idiotic. You refuse to see the logic pointed out to you in several threads. Adding per turn resources to an instantaneous trade, making it a 20-turn deal, may cause they AI to turn it down for very obvious reasons.

aleion · January 12, 2003, 21:11

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7
C, your argument is idiotic. You refuse to see the logic pointed out to you in several threads. Adding per turn resources to an instantaneous trade, making it a 20-turn deal, may cause they AI to turn it down for very obvious reasons.

This is extremly true.

peterfharris · January 12, 2003, 21:33

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDork
Hi all. I was playing last night and things were going good. Well the Aztecs kept cutting through my land to beat up on the Arabs so I told them to leave. So what do they do? Declare war. Morons. Anyway, I ask ole' Hannibal if he wants to get in on the action too. We just fought a war so he was furious with me.

Okay, I'll get to the point. I asked him what he wanted for a military alliance again the Aztecs and he wanted 442gpt, 16550(or something close to that), several strategic resources and luxuries and some tech. Umm...no. Actually I found it kinda funny. Lets say that just as soon as the Aztecs were done I taught Hannibal a thing or two about negotiations.

Anyway, I'm kinda wondering what kind of outrageous demands you all have recieved too.

BigD

Under the circumstances, Hannibal was not being outrageous, he was saying "no". You just fought a war with him, why would he want to help you when he has good reason to prefer to knife you?

BigDork · January 12, 2003, 22:31

Quote:

Originally posted by peterfharris
Under the circumstances, Hannibal was not being outrageous, he was saying "no". You just fought a war with him, why would he want to help you when he has good reason to prefer to knife you?

I know he was saying no. And I understand why. But usually they just refuse. I've never seen the computer just ask for a hella lot of money before.

BigD

Kingof the Apes · January 13, 2003, 01:43

I agree with you, BigDork. When I negotiate with civs I have had wars with in the past ~500 years, they tend to turn down most of my offers. Usually it's my allies who demand crazy prices.

Hurricane · January 13, 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDork

I know he was saying no. And I understand why. But usually they just refuse. I've never seen the computer just ask for a hella lot of money before.

BigD

I guess you don't make 442 gpt and have 16500 gold all the time. They didn't refuse simply because you had so much money that they were willing to forget about your rivalry, but only for helluva price.

Bonaparte · January 13, 2003, 03:41

No matter how you look at it the AI, at least as far as diplomacy is concerned, needs a lot of work. Enemies and allies usually make crazy demands even when they have no muscle to back up their words. They hold grudges for hundreds and thousands of years. Heck, I couldn't get a right of passage with greece in 1950AD, because I violated a right of passage with germany (I declared war on them) in 3100BC...that's just plain nuts!
I noticed that the AI civs usually never like me upon first contact and that it is very easy to piss them off, but almost impossable to keep them as good friends. I am used to this and usually build up enough power so that I don't need them and don't care if they are mad at me or not, but that's not how the game should be.

Tattila the Hun · January 13, 2003, 04:40

Since you got so much money, maybe he though you could from some of it...

By 20th century, usually everybody is furious with me... Not to my blame...

So alliances aren't cheap.

aahz_capone · January 13, 2003, 05:28

it is outrageous that the AI will never negotiate with cities unless they are at war and about to die. In SMAC you could negotiate using cities during peace if the price was right and the city small enough.

Another thing is that when you offer to end a war in exchange for one of their techs, they say yes, and when you want to thorw in a tech of your own they won't take it. It's not like I'm limmiting this to 20 turns here...

theNiceOne · January 13, 2003, 06:28

The reason that Hannibal wanted so much, is partly because he wasn't in a good position for the war, and partly because he had ongoing deals with the Aztecs that he didn't want to break.

I cannot see anything outrageous about not agreeing to a military alliance when it's not in your interest. I regularly turn down military alliance offers from AI civs as well.

theNiceOne · January 13, 2003, 06:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
I hated it when I would cut a good deal with a civ, and then, as a FREE BONUS, throw in SIX resources. The AI would insult me and cancel the deal. All that based on some alleged thing I did a thousand years earlier that caused a reputation hit (I never did it, actually). How stupid of the AI.

Coracle: If you really want to give the AI six free resources, why don't you finish the trade you both agree on, and then suggest a new trade that only involves you giving the resources for free? This will give the same result, except for one thing - It wouldn't give you any reason to complain about how stupid teh AI is(but since it seems that the latter is your only reason for being here, I understand that you won't follow my suggestion)

theNiceOne · January 13, 2003, 06:41

Quote:

Originally posted by aahz_capone
it is outrageous that the AI will never negotiate with cities unless they are at war and about to die. In SMAC you could negotiate using cities during peace if the price was right and the city small enough.

I wouldn't say outragous, but it would be nice with an intelligent AI negotiator with whom you could trade cities. It's good that the big city trade exploit in the original game was closed though.

Quote:

Another thing is that when you offer to end a war in exchange for one of their techs, they say yes, and when you want to thorw in a tech of your own they won't take it. It's not like I'm limmiting this to 20 turns here...

Are you completely sure about this? IMHO, there are only three cases where the AI goes from accepting a trade to not accepting it when you adds something. Those three are:

1) If you add gold per turn above your current net income.
2) If you have a bad reputation and add gold per turn or a resource to a deal where the AI gives an instant goods (map/tech/gold).
3) If during a peace negotiation the AI agrees to give you a city, and you add anything.

Alex · January 13, 2003, 06:51

These outrageous demands are due to the simple fact that the AI is an AI, not a human.

aleion · January 13, 2003, 17:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
I agree with you, BigDork. When I negotiate with civs I have had wars with in the past ~500 years, they tend to turn down most of my offers. Usually it's my allies who demand crazy prices.

It's AI this is going to happen a lot.....sort of like Trent LOTT

justjake73 · January 13, 2003, 20:46

I handle aggressive AI in the following way:

Declare war on me once or twice, and I'll destroy some of your troops.

Declare war a THIRD time, I'm taking cities - and you better come at me with a peace for peace deal, or NO treaty.

The AI can be getting his butt handed to him and he will STILL demand 4 workers, 100 gp, and a technology "to stop the slaughter of your armies." Take 2 of his cities, and he turns into a meek, groveling dog. City seizure is the only language they understand.

Also, why can't you demand the same stuff the AI wants in trade? If YOU demand THEY give 200 GP and so much gold a turn they're "insulted." Fine, Cleopatra - I was offering Oil for spices, and I'm the ONLY one who has surplus oil. Let's see you try and build a modern army without oil, you idiot! You'll take my offer and LIKE IT, or you get NO planes, warships, or tanks!!!!!!

P.S. How many times have people seen the AI renegotiating deals where you trade them a vital resource, like oil? I have never had Cleo come and threaten to end trading for my Oil.

bobbo008 · January 13, 2003, 21:03

how does the AI demand workers? i thought you could only do that if you have some in your captial... do you?

also, will the AI pay anything for workers of theirs that you captured?

justjake73 · January 13, 2003, 21:08

I did have workers there, because they were waiting for pollution to appear.

I have never captured AI workers, as I have no real use for them. I have enough of my own.

Theseus · January 14, 2003, 00:57

For context, Lockheed Martin just won a jet fighter contract with Poland worth over $3.4 billion... subsidized / lent by the US government.

The $ get big, depending on what is at stake...

Going back to the original post, in-game all things have calculated value, be they techs or resources or diplo agreements.

So be it.

Use it.

You'll like it.

bongo · January 14, 2003, 08:37

The AI will actually understand when a war is not working to his advantage. The price he asks to end it usually depends on how hard pressed he is. I've seen several AI's come to me and beg for peace at a steadily decreasing price even when I'm not gaining territory. Only causing them heavy losses and possibly great WW.

Oh, sometimes they enter 'ID10T' mode and refuse to show any sign of intelligence.

Mad Bomber · January 15, 2003, 09:03

Quote:

Originally posted by justjake73
Declare war a THIRD time, I'm taking cities - and you better come at me with a peace for peace deal, or NO treaty.

You actually wait for two wars to pass before you take out the offending CIV, my you are generous. If a CIV declares war on me I will take at least 4 cities from them to teach them a lesson, and after that I am just waiting the 20 turns to finish them off....

BigDork · January 16, 2003, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by aahz_capone
Another thing is that when you offer to end a war in exchange for one of their techs, they say yes, and when you want to thorw in a tech of your own they won't take it. It's not like I'm limmiting this to 20 turns here...

I had a similar thing happen to me last night. I was trying to get a tech from the Arabs I think. I offered another tech for it and my advisor said that it was close to a deal. Well I offer 300 gold, up front, one time lump sum and all the sudden they're insulted. WtF? I'm not looking for a 20 turn deal, just wanna do a one time thing. Sometimes the AI can act like such an AI...er, yeah.

BigD

BigDork · April 13, 2003, 05:46

Hi everybody...

I'm posting the screenshot that had me start this thread more to test my new software than anything. It's basically just a test.

BigD

Panag · April 13, 2003, 15:28

hi ,

what did you do to make him "furious" , ......

maybe if he was friendly to you it would have cost far less , .....

have a nice day

Alex · April 14, 2003, 09:37

Read the thread, panag.

He had been at war with them recently.

Panag · April 14, 2003, 16:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexnm
Read the thread, panag.

He had been at war with them recently.

hi ,

done

when asked "what did he do" , well what did he do , burned all of his cities or so , .... or is this maybe the next or the same turn after peace , ......

it is a bit on the high side , a bit way to up , .....

have a nice day

BigDork · April 15, 2003, 20:31

panag...

Well this is going pretty far back for me. We're talking mid-January here. It had actually been a while since we'd been at war but I'd pretty much constantly been at war with Hannibal. I'd wait the 20 and then have at him again(I think).

But honestly I'm not too sure. This was one of my very first games and I wasn't too up on all the workings of diplomacy yet. I wouldn't be surprised if I RoP raped him or something. And I probably razed one or two. But like I said, I don't remember.I just had never seen and have never since seen such an outrageous demand.

BigD

BigDork · April 15, 2003, 20:32

Oh yeah, and I think I was trying to get the alliance so that our relationship would improve. Eh, didn't work and I crushed the SoB under the boots of my mighty army or something.

BigD

Blaupanzer · April 16, 2003, 16:16

What are you doing with that much money and income in the medieval era? If I was him, I'd want to libewrate your trasury too. How did you get your income so high? What level are you playing at?