ELECTION: Minster of Diplomacy, Science and Trade

[mapfi]

This poll will be open for 5 days, till January 20th, approximately 7:15pm GMT

We have two candidates, Immortal Wombat and Locutus.

nomination thread

[Turambar]

So what are your views on the current Austrian situation?

[Locutus]

Writing as I speak...

[H Tower]

hopefully IW will find the time to write a campaign speech before the majority vote

[Frozzy]

I'm holding until the time comes.

[Locutus]

Honoured Citizens of Lemuria,

These are difficult times for Lemuria. We have barely established our first city and already are our borders threatened by the treaterous Austrians. We cannot trust these savages! Word goes that they serve monkey brains as a delicacy at the palaces of Vienna. Monkey brains! Poor cute little lemurs are being slaughtered to serve as meal for the Austrian empress We must destroy such evil vermin, we must wipe them from the face of the earth!!

However, the Austrians are powerful. The rumour goes that they have as many as a dozen powerful cities with mighty walls, and that their army is ten times larger than our own And their soldiers are equipped with magical weapons that can kill a man from a stone throw's disctance! We would not last an hour in a battle against such mighty and evil black magic! And we don't even know the location of a single of their cities, so even if we could defeat them, where must we go to fight them?

Therefore it is imperative that we befriend them. We must make them believe we are their friends and can be trusted enough for them to let their guard down. We should convince them that it is in our mutual interest if they were to provide us with their maps. We should pretend that this is merely to allow our forces to move around their territory and to allow our envoys to visit their cities and provide them with gifts, but in reality we must use these maps to plan our assault If this means that we must give away some of Lemuria's gold supply, the finest gold in all the world, then that is a sacrifice we will have to make. It will more than repay itself once our mighty armies stand on the smoldering rubble of Vienna! We shall wait for the right moment, when they trust us and won't see us coming, and then attack and crush them. In the meantime, we shall send our wise men to their cities and spy on them, see if the rumours of their magical weapons are true, and if so, replicate these for our own use. We can then fight them with their own weapons -- for evil must be fought with evil!

This is the policy that I will carry out when I am elected as Minister of Diplomacy, Science and Trade. This is what I believe to be the only right course of action for Lemuria. And I will be more than happy to sacrifice myself by visiting the smelly and polluted streets of Vienna and to endure the unpleasent presence of the arrogant and snobby 'empress' Maria. And I will even pretend to the Austrians that I enjoy it, to convince them that we are genuine friends and can be trusted. This is a harsh punishment to have to endure, but in the interest of Lemuria, I shall be honoured to do so.

If you wish Lemuria to triumph over Austria, vote for me!

I thank you for your attention,

Your humble servant,

Locutus

[H Tower]

locutus, your speech only covers one third of your office. And I also question your use of sensationalism in your speech. Dead monkeys and 12 cities indeed

[Locutus]

I covered the Science too ('evil magic weapons that kill from a stone throw's distance'), even though that will probably involve little work during the next term. We must gain Ballistics ASAP, but there's not too much that can be done to speed up the process. Only building a 2nd city will accelerate that process, or a goody hut resulting from exploration. But both require peace with the Austrians, so those factors are dependent on the Diplomacy...

Until we invent Trade (which is still a good deal away), the last 1/3 of this office is non-existant...

[Maquiladora]

Locutus' vote against me in the MoD election decided for me, if i get into office i can only work best with people who want me there.

[Oerdin]

How would you go about increasing our rate of technology acquisition?

[Turambar]

Locutus attitude towards the Austrians is the same as mine so he gets my vote.

[HuangShang]

i see that IW is winning....

[mapfi]

a lot can change in 5 days and I'll certainly won't give my vote away while I haven't heard from both contestants - though I have to admit that I can't see how IW's policy will work out - mistakes have already been made.

[Devil of Truth]

IW did a great job! He certainly got us debating... But I have been waiting for Locutus to join the fray. So by the breadth of a neutrino’s squiggly bits - I’ll vote for Locutus.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Oerdin
How would you go about increasing our rate of technology acquisition?

A good question. There are number of ways in which this could be achieved:

1) Decreasing wages and maximizing science tax. At present however the wages are already at a minimum and the science tax at a maximum so there isn't much to be gained here. When our empire grows, lower morale amongst our people may force us to increase wages or rations or to reduce the workdays. If we would leave the wages at a minimum, this would mean either production or food collection would have to suffer, something which would probably not weigh up against the science benefit achieved with that. So I won't push too strongly to keep the wages as low as they are now. However, I will do everything in my power to make sure the science tax remains where it is now, this is imperative to ensure we keep up with our neighbours technologically.

2) Increase the number of commerce collected. This can be done in two ways: by making our existing cities grow and by acquiring more cities. Since I do not believe that acquiring cities by military force is a realistic option at this point, I will push for the creation of at least 1 Settler, who must found a new city for us. When determining the location of this city, I will do everything I can to ensure this location is suitable for commerce collection and thus favourable for our rate of technology acquisition.

3) To make our existing city grow, we could employ farmers, but I would be against this. This may in the long run increase our science and production output, in the short run it will severely hamper both, which is IMO not in our interest as we need to invent Ballistics and build Settlers and Warriors as fast as possible. So at least in the short run, I will oppose the use of farmers, although I do believe that it is imperative for our cities to grow.

4) The final option to increase the rate of technology acquisition is by exploration: we live in a large, mostly unexplored world, and there will no doubt be many lost tribes and abandoned villages which could serve us well by granting us new advances, cities or Settlers. I will push for seeking these out as fast as we can. This will serve two purposes: it will deny the Austrians access to these advantages, while we ourselves will benefit from them.



I hope IW will show up anytime soon as debating on my own is hardly how I had hoped this campaign would go...

[Immortal Wombat]

Bloody hell, the threads only been open 22 hours Locutus. I'll see if I can get in some campaigning tonight. I don't want to sell short the populace by outlining my campaign in 5 minutes using this awful PC in high resolution mode. Until then, I urge the citizens to restrain their vote until they have carefully weighed up the positions of both candidates.

[Martin Gühmann]

Well here is my question again: How would you get the map of the Austrians by only using peacfull means or also by the mean of threatening.

-Martin

[Locutus]

Martin,
I do not believe that threatening will be either needed or useful. The Austrians only slightly dislike us, giving 100 Gold will create a pretty large regard boost. Their trust of us should still be average. So after that an equal exchange of maps should still be accepted, especially if our Warrior leaves their land ASAP (if only temporarily). The only potential problem is that the generally AI only accepts map-exchange agreements every 30 or 40 turns and I'm not 100% sure that the counter only starts after successful trades and not after failed attempts. But I'm fairly certain that IW's screw-up doesn't have to be fatal.

If even after having given 100 Gold, the map-exchange still fails, I do not believe threatening will help much, but it won't do any harm either (a threat to the best of my knowledge has no significant effect on either regard or trust), so I'd certainly be willing to try it, if a majority of the community supports it (so I would start a poll over it).

I base this knowledge on my extensive diplomatic background: I win over 50% of my games through Diplomatic victories, so I am intimitely familiar with the rules and customs of CtP2's diplomacy. As some of you may remember, I wrote the book on diplomacy in MedMod2. So, although SAP's diplomacy works slightly differently than the MM2's, I have an extensive and proven background in this field and would IMO be more suitable for this function than IW, who has no proven record here. In fact, his only record is the screw-up he made with the map-exchange in this game

IW,
Yes, only 22 hours, but the first 24 hours are quite important: 1/3 of the community didn't want to wait for you and already voted. Because you remain absent, the people who voted for you have no idea what they are voting for! You announced policies may be the exact opposite of what they were expecting and they will have been let down. I care for my voters, so I want to make it as clear as possible to as many of them as possible what I stand for. That way they know what they are voting for. If you care for your voters, I urge you to do the same!

[ískallin]

Your speech seduced me Locutus

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Locutus
Martin,
I do not believe that threatening will be either needed or useful.

Sorry Locutus I was leaning toward you for the position, because of your experience and dedication to the game, however this statement swayed my vote. In all of my experiences with diplomacy in CTP2, regardless of the mod, threatening has always been necessary. Without it, the AI agrees to very little. On the flip side, if it's used properly you can almost always get your way. As an example, the use of nicely timed threats allowed me to get some rather quick diplo wins in the SP tournaments.

[Locutus]

Sorry, centrifuge, I should have been more clear. I do think threatening is useful, very much so -- it's one of the most powerful tools available to the diplomat. However, I was saying that is this specific situation it won't be needed or useful. I know from experience that under the present circumstances in the game it won't do much good. Later on in the game it *will* though.

Plus, why did you vote for IW over that issue? He hasn't responded here at all yet and so far also refused to threaten. I already stated in my previous post that am open to the idea if that's what the people want; for all we know, IW may be completely opposed to it...

[Immortal Wombat]

Well, I'm sorry I haven't been here for this thread so far, I have been having trouble finding time to get any posting in between exams and so forth, and the poll blindsided me a little.

Anyhow, my position is thus:
As I see it, the course of action to take does not require much open debate here, at all. The time will come when decisions have to be made, and as far as possible, I will leave it to the population to decide. Is this not a "democracy" game?
Indeed.
I wonder how many of you good people have read the GL entry for Virtual Democracy? In there, you will find that the system of government works because ever decision is voted on by the populas, via a cyber-voting system. Well, surely that is what we have now! In this forum, every citizen has as much right to an opinion as any other, and I firmly believe in this sacred truth.
As far as is humanly possible, I will endeavor not to take any decision without the backing of the majority of the population.

Now, Locutus has done a brilliant job of outlining our optimum strategy, and I cannot hope to better him, suffice to say this:
1. We are in a weak position relative to Austria, gifts of gold will work, but if we are threatening, we have to be sure our bluff will not be called, or we will face the wrong end of their big pointy sticks. This is not to say threatening is not a bad idea - let the people decide.
2. Locutus repeatedly mentions my "screw-up" in the map exchange. We cannot know for sure either whether a gift or a threat would have worked any better, and we are not, after all restricted in how many times we can offer exchanges.

The honourable candidate Locutus may have experience with the CtP2 diplomacy system, but has relatively little experience in Democracy Games. Having been a citizen of the Civ2 democracy game, and a registered member of the Civ3 Demo game, I have been present for many polls, both scientific and diplomatic.

I have seen how processes have worked and faltered, and I believe I can present the clearest case to the citizens.

My unconstitutional diplomacy poll may have been unofficial, and thus prone to bias and misinterpretation, but I genuinly believe that it was in the interests of the population to present the poll thus.
Above all else, I value your input.

There is no doubt in my mind, that either Locutus or I would make equally good Ministers, but my major concern is that if Locutus is made Minister, he will ruin us all er... not be able to perform as efficiently in his other duties.
Be honest, how many times have you seen Locutus say "I'm busy in RL at the moment"? Quite a few I suspect.

Locutus, as he at pains to point out, has a life. Well I for one have no such worries. I am not Moderator of three forums, I have no Newsitems to post, I have no mods to be making (quiet Hex ), and I have time to dedicate to the success of Lemuria.

I have the science polls well under control and organised, and following Case 002, a better understanding of how diplomatic polls can be arranged for the good of all. Having been Minister once, I have the experience necessary to follow up with a second term in office.

Don't let the well being of the forum suffer through Locutus' excessive workload, vote for me, and I will lead us to further success yadda yadda.


Your humble servant,
The Immortal Wombat


Anyone who votes for me will get sweeties!

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Locutus
why did you vote for IW over that issue? He hasn't responded here at all yet and so far also refused to threaten.

You're right, my vote was probably made with to much haste. I haven't been around Apolyton as much lately, so I haven't been able to keep up with all that has been going on. If IW refused to threaten, then he made a grave diplomatic mistake, which makes me reconsider my vote. The biggest error in casting a vote is to not do your homework beforehand

In the first meeting with the Austrians, a threat should have been made after they refused to exchange maps, this would likely have gotten the map for us. Their attitude toward us would then have increased simply due to the fact that we made a deal with them. However, this is most easilly done on the first meeting with them, now things may be different. If we wanted, it is very possible that we could have also had a peace treaty and military pact with them from our first meeting, had things been done right.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Well, I'm sorry I haven't been here for this thread so far, I have been having trouble finding time to get any posting in between exams and so forth, and the poll blindsided me a little.

And you're claiming *I* wouldn't have enough time to perform my duties?

As far as is humanly possible, I will endeavor not to take any decision without the backing of the majority of the population.

It goes without saying that I shall do the same, ordinarily no decisions shall be made without the backing of the people. And creating proper polls to investigate what the opinion of the people is, is something I have so far made less screw-ups in than you

However, as much as this is a Democracy, not under all circumstances can fully democratic decisions been made. The most notable situation is during turn-chats: a lot of decisions there have to be made very fast: a brief discussion between whoever is around (usually no more than a handful of Citizens) takes place but in the end the Minister is the one who has to make the call. For such decisions it's simply not possible to halt the game and spend three days to a week to find out what the people want. This situation should of course be avoided and anticipated as much as possible, but in some cases the Ministers will be forced to act on their own.

It is important for the Citizens to know how their Ministers will act in such situations, the Ministers must be able to represent their opinion without asking for it. Whoever votes for me knows what he can expect from me: if not offered the opportunity to poll, I will follow the policies set out in this thread. If people vote for you on the other hand, they have so far no clue of what they can expect.

1. We are in a weak position relative to Austria, gifts of gold will work, but if we are threatening, we have to be sure our bluff will not be called, or we will face the wrong end of their big pointy sticks. This is not to say threatening is not a bad idea - let the people decide.

Contrary to you, I do not fear the Austrian's sticks. However, as I said before, threatening will in this particular situation accomplish little, although I am still more than willing to do just that if it is what the people of Lemuria want.

2. Locutus repeatedly mentions my "screw-up" in the map exchange. We cannot know for sure either whether a gift or a threat would have worked any better, and we are not, after all restricted in how many times we can offer exchanges.

Well, this just proves that I know the diplomacy system better than you, because I *can* say for sure that the Austrians would have accepted the map-exchange if we had first offered them 100 Gold. If you want proof, feel free to find an old savegame and try it out. I'll eat my hat implants if they won't accept (do remember to leave 1 turn between giving the gold and asking for the map).

The honourable candidate Locutus may have experience with the CtP2 diplomacy system, but has relatively little experience in Democracy Games. Having been a citizen of the Civ2 democracy game, and a registered member of the Civ3 Demo game, I have been present for many polls, both scientific and diplomatic.

I may not have been an official Citizen but I *have* lurked various Democracy Games for a long time (Civ3, AC, CFC-Civ2, CFC-Civ3), so I've seen my share of polls as well. However, being a Citizen and being a Minister are two very different things. And I've helped set up this Democracy Game and am now active in setting up the CtP1-DG, which is IMHO more similar to a Minister's job than being a Citizen. So in this sense I feel I have actually more, not less, experience...

Be honest, how many times have you seen Locutus say "I'm busy in RL at the moment"? Quite a few I suspect.

That was before the Christmas Holidays, when I was indeed very busy. In the past 3 weeks though, I have had far more time and spent much of it on Apolyton. In fact, in this period I've made close to 20 posts a day, compared to a meagre 7 for you. I think mapfi, Pedrunn and H Tower can also testify that I'm usually been quick in performing any moderation tasks they required, even when I *was* busy. I will be equally prompt and loyal in my Minister functions.
Also, I'm signing up for this job now *because* I know that I will have time for it now. This will probably be much less so next month, so I will most likely not run for any office next month. Worrying about my schedule is something I can do very well myself, that's the last thing the Citizens of Lemuria will ever have to worry about...

[Immortal Wombat]

On the one hand, I'm tempted to waffle extensively and counter every point you make, and on the other I think to myself that clarity and brevity is more valuable. Is not clarity and unambiguity of paramount importance?

Whoever votes for me knows what he can expect from me: if not offered the opportunity to poll, I will follow the policies set out in this thread.

As will I. Those policies are the best course of action.

The real decision here is not what should be done, rather who should do it. I can promise both dedication and approachability, tolerance and flexibility, to see the constitution does not hinder our progress in an effort to keep the rules overly rigid.

Plus, my jokes are better.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by centrifuge
You're right, my vote was probably made with to much haste. I haven't been around Apolyton as much lately, so I haven't been able to keep up with all that has been going on. If IW refused to threaten, then he made a grave diplomatic mistake, which makes me reconsider my vote. The biggest error in casting a vote is to not do your homework beforehand

Ah, yes, you can leave it to IW to not give you a decent chance to do your homework

In the first meeting with the Austrians, a threat should have been made after they refused to exchange maps, this would likely have gotten the map for us. Their attitude toward us would then have increased simply due to the fact that we made a deal with them. However, this is most easilly done on the first meeting with them, now things may be different. If we wanted, it is very possible that we could have also had a peace treaty and military pact with them from our first meeting, had things been done right.

You are absolutely right. I must admit I forgot about this myself, but in the VERY first turn you meet, the AI is VERY receptive to threats. By threatening in the first turn, we could probably have closed any (reasonable) deal we could have thought of. But this only applies to the very first turn you meet them, so we no longer have this opportunity. Except for Martin, I don't think anyone else thought of this (and posted about it), so this was really a screw-up of (almost) the entire community

[Locutus]

dp

[Locutus]

On the one hand, I'm tempted to waffle extensively and counter every point you make, and on the other I think to myself that clarity and brevity is more valuable. Is not clarity and unambiguity of paramount importance?

Is that really what you believe or are you simply unable to counter my points? Most of my points were quite brief, it's just that I have a lot of them (contrary to some candidates)

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
As will I. Those policies are the best course of action.

Well, if you are gonna do whatever I would do anyway and are unable of coming up with better ideas, people might as well vote for me

The real decision here is not what should be done, rather who should do it. I can promise both dedication and approachability, tolerance and flexibility, to see the constitution does not hinder our progress in an effort to keep the rules overly rigid.

The very same goes for me and personally, I believe I have a better track record in this area than you

Plus, I can ban anyone who doesn't vote for me

[Immortal Wombat]

I believe I have a better track record in this area than you

No, you have a track record of fussing over every tiny detail which really doesn't matter.
Flexability is the key to organisation. Or something.

Keep talking,

Plus, I can ban anyone who doesn't vote for me

Trust this man with power folks, it's good for everyone

[Immortal Wombat]

[/lame ad hominems]