The Everlasting CCCP !

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Why not? Given that the US block contained far more of the world than the USSR's did, and they still killed less people, I don't know how you can make such a claim.

The USSR block *was* more populated than the US block :
USSR population in 1990 : around 300 millions
USA population in 1990 : around 250 millions
And I think that the USSSR satellites were far more populated than the USA's satellites, but I cant be sure.

The thing about political repression in both blocks was that it was far more overt and violent in the USSR than the US. In the US, people were never forbidden from mentioning something upon pain fo death - they might be studiously ignored if they mentioned something inconvenient, but that didn't stop them fro speaking.

This is quite true, the soviet repression is more overt and violent - more direct, actually, while the USA's system of repression is indirect. But I'll appeal to a specialist opinion : Amnesty International, nowadays, consider that the two countries most wanted for breaking the Declaration of Human Rights are :
1. The United States of America
2. The Popular Democracy of China

Other examples would include the refusal of the US government to have an american judged by an international court, etc...

The US, throughout it's whole bloody history, would be hard-pressed to find an example of barabarism committed by it or it's proxies to match Stalin's genocide in the Ukraine - and that was just one of many Soviet crimes. The Americans committed many crimes, but they enver managed to match the Soviets in their sheer scale.

You cant ignore the massive deportation of black people, the genocide of Human Beings (continued by the US, though started by others), the constant wars in the rest of the world (Texas 1835-1836, Mexico, Hawaï, Cuba 1898, Panama 1903, Nicaragua 1912-1916, etc..., the constant undeclared wars (Vietnam, Yougoslavia, Korea, Guatemala, Combodgia, Laos, Grenade, Panama, Irak, etc...), the two nuclear bombs and their experimentations, and so on...
The fact that there is not a single example that is famously recognized as a larger genocide than Ukraine's must not refrain us to consider the larger variety, and larger number of US crimes. This mean that while USSR concentrated its crimes, USA's crimes were spread out.

[GeneralTacticus]

The USSR block *was* more populated than the US block :
USSR population in 1990 : around 300 millions
USA population in 1990 : around 250 millions
And I think that the USSSR satellites were far more populated than the USA's satellites, but I cant be sure.

Only if you include China and/or India in the Soviet block, and ignore everything outside the USA. Pretty much the whole of Latin America fell inside the US block, along with Indonesia (one of the most populous countries in the world), Japan, etc.

This is quite true, the soviet repression is more overt and violent - more direct, actually, while the USA's system of repression is indirect. But I'll appeal to a specialist opinion : Amnesty International, nowadays, consider that the two countries most wanted for breaking the Declaration of Human Rights are :
1. The United States of America
2. The Popular Democracy of China

Other examples would include the refusal of the US government to have an american judged by an international court, etc...

The US freely abuses human rights in other countries, but is rather mroe constrained within it's own borders. The US government doe shave some rather inconvenient constraints placed on it, as it's continued existence is dependant solely on the people continuing to suffer it, which means that they have to continuously keep their crimes hidden from view when they can't stop people from pointing them out.

You cant ignore the massive deportation of black people, the genocide of Human Beings (continued by the US, though started by others), the constant wars in the rest of the world (Texas 1835-1836, Mexico, Hawaï, Cuba 1898, Panama 1903, Nicaragua 1912-1916, etc..., the constant undeclared wars (Vietnam, Yougoslavia, Korea, Guatemala, Combodgia, Laos, Grenade, Panama, Irak, etc...), the two nuclear bombs and their experimentations, and so on...

I'm not ignoring them, I'm totalling them all up and they add up to something close to the Ukrainian genocide - which was merely a single Soviet crime.

The fact that there is not a single example that is famously recognized as a larger genocide than Ukraine's must not refrain us to consider the larger variety, and larger number of US crimes. This mean that while USSR concentrated its crimes, USA's crimes were spread out.

Doesn't mitigate them in any way.

[Jamski]

But the reason behind these crimes ?

USSR - Stalin's paranoia etc.
USA - National philsophy

Hmm?

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

I don't recall any part of the US national philiosohpy that involved napalming villagers or poisoning nations with depleted uranium. Do you?

And btw, Soviet crimes didn't exactly cease when Stalin died. They slowed down a bit, but that's it.

[Jamski]

Hmm, I thought US national philosophy was "Look after our own interests, whatever the cost" This would include nalpalming Viatnamese. Stalin was also looking out for himself only. After he was gone, things got (a bit) better.

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

Philosophy of the leaders != national philosophy.

[Jamski]

Disagree. Look at current situation with Blair vs English.

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

And this proves your point how? I think what it proves is that Blair definitely does not represent the national philosophy of his country.

[Jamski]

I thought you were saying that leader's philosphy=national philosopy? Hmm?

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

I said != - that is 'does not equal'.

[Jamski]

Ah - sorry I thought that was a typo. I think =/= is "not equals", or?

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

That's an alternative.

[Main_Brain]

and I always thought =! means 'should be'

[Archaic]

!= =/= =!

[Jamski]

-Jam

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Only if you include China and/or India in the Soviet block, and ignore everything outside the USA. Pretty much the whole of Latin America fell inside the US block, along with Indonesia (one of the most populous countries in the world), Japan, etc.

Take it US block against Soviet block or take it USA against USSR, the Reds are still far more crowded than the Yanks. And honestly, if you take Japan in the Western block, then europe should be in the Eastern block.

The US freely abuses human rights in other countries, but is rather mroe constrained within it's own borders. The US government doe shave some rather inconvenient constraints placed on it, as it's continued existence is dependant solely on the people continuing to suffer it, which means that they have to continuously keep their crimes hidden from view when they can't stop people from pointing them out.

I cant understand your point here. Maybe its just because im very ill at the moment, but can you try to explicit it ?

I'm not ignoring them, I'm totalling them all up and they add up to something close to the Ukrainian genocide - which was merely a single Soviet crime.

Okay, let's examine the total Soviet body count: 20-30 million. Total US body count: 8-9 million, tops. I'd say you've been caught in a factual error there, Pan.

Little Boy, Hiroshima : 130,000 + 200,000 in five years, and sqtill counting
Fat Man, Nagazaki : 70,000 + 150,000 in five years, and still counting
Korean Civilians : 3,000,000
Vietnamese soldiers : 1,100,000
Civilian Vietnamese : 2,000,000
Timoreans : 200,000
Iraki : 800,000

With this little list, we already are at 8-9 millions, and we havent been totalling all the crimes I told you about. Stop pretending the USSR was really worst than the USA.

[GeneralTacticus]

Take it US block against Soviet block or take it USA against USSR, the Reds are still far more crowded than the Yanks.

Latin America had hundreds of millions of people (Brazil alone was one of the world's most populous countries), as did Europe, Indonensia, Pakistan, etc. The Soviet sphere wasn't really all that big, especially after the 1960s, when they split with China.

And honestly, if you take Japan in the Western block, then europe should be in the Eastern block.

Are you serious? Japan has been a US client state ever since WWII. Geography had nothing to do with which sphere a state was in, it was ideology.

I cant understand your point here. Maybe its just because im very ill at the moment, but can you try to explicit it ?

I stated that US political repression was more covert and less extensive than in the USSR. You responded by saying that AI had condemened the US, along with China, for human rights violations. My point is that most US human rights violations occur outside their borders.

With this little list, we already are at 8-9 millions, and we havent been totalling all the crimes I told you about. Stop pretending the USSR was really worst than the USA.

I forgot to mention the Koreans (mainly because I've enver seen an established figure), and with that addition, the entire US list adds up to a bit over ten million. Atrocious, but still much less than the Soviet total of 20-30 million.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Latin America had hundreds of millions of people (Brazil alone was one of the world's most populous countries), as did Europe, Indonensia, Pakistan, etc. The Soviet sphere wasn't really all that big, especially after the 1960s, when they split with China.

We can disagree () about numerous things in the separation of the two blocks, should it be the whole sphere of influence, US/USSR plus their satellites. Maybe we should first agree on how we define these two blocks before we keep going about that.

Are you serious? Japan has been a US client state ever since WWII. Geography had nothing to do with which sphere a state was in, it was ideology.

Indeed, a US client state, not a satellite. And the two blocks are rather about geopolitics than about ideology. Tito's Yougoslavia cant decently be considered in the Eastern block, though they had a socialist ideology too. Europe cant be considered in the western block, though they had a capitalist ideology too. Wer should agree on how we define the trwo blocks I think.

[quoter]
I stated that US political repression was more covert and less extensive than in the USSR. You responded by saying that AI had condemened the US, along with China, for human rights violations. My point is that most US human rights violations occur outside their borders.
[/quote]
Indeed. but I dont think we can say that because they violated human rights out of their borders, they are nicer than USSR.

I forgot to mention the Koreans (mainly because I've enver seen an established figure), and with that addition, the entire US list adds up to a bit over ten million. Atrocious, but still much less than the Soviet total of 20-30 million.

At this 10,000,000, you have to add
the massive deportation of black people (cant be counted),
the genocide of Human Beings,
Cambodgia,
Mexican victims of the two colonization wars,
Cuban victims from 1898 and after,
Yougoslavia,
Guatemala,
Laos,
Grenade,
Panama...
I surely forgot some others large crimes of war, but just with these, its over 30 millions.

[GeneralTacticus]

We can disagree () about numerous things in the separation of the two blocks, should it be the whole sphere of influence, US/USSR plus their satellites. Maybe we should first agree on how we define these two blocks before we keep going about that.

If you're just going to talk about the US vs. the USSR, without counting the satellites, then you've just defeated yourself, because the US committed most of it's atrocities outside it's own borders, while the Soviets committed most of tehirs within them.

Indeed, a US client state, not a satellite.

They're the same f*cking thing. The East Europeans were Soviet client states AND satellites; they're just two different erms for the same thing.

Europe cant be considered in the western block, though they had a capitalist ideology too.

Western Europe was solidly within the Western block - they were some of America's closest allies.

Indeed. but I dont think we can say that because they violated human rights out of their borders, they are nicer than USSR.

I never said they were.

I surely forgot some others large crimes of war, but just with these, its over 30 millions.

I"m going to call BS here. Most of the crimes on that list were already taken into acount, and still total around ten millino, maybe a bit more, which means that you have to come up with another 18 million from somewhere else. And if you're going to include deporatations and so forth, then we really ought to include Stalin's banishment of entire nations to Siberia (the Chechens, for example), which would bump up the Soviet toal quite a bit too. Not to mention their use of German prisoners for slave labour.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


If you're just going to talk about the US vs. the USSR, without counting the satellites, then you've just defeated yourself, because the US committed most of it's atrocities outside it's own borders, while the Soviets committed most of tehirs within them.

No, we need to see if we're talking of the sphere of influence or of satellites, but obviously you cant make the difference.

[Client states and satellites] are the same f*cking thing. The East Europeans were Soviet client states AND satellites; they're just two different erms for the same thing.

No they are not, and that is why there is two expression to talk about it. Semantics, semantics
A satellite depends on the political or the economical power of the "mother state", while a client state places itself under the patronage of the "mother state".

Western Europe was solidly within the Western block - they were some of America's closest allies.

Allies, indeed, not vassals. Europe has always wanted to saty in the middle of the two, thats why they created the European Union under all its different forms.

I"m going to call BS here. Most of the crimes on that list were already taken into acount, and still total around ten millino, maybe a bit more, which means that you have to come up with another 18 million from somewhere else. And if you're going to include deporatations and so forth, then we really ought to include Stalin's banishment of entire nations to Siberia (the Chechens, for example), which would bump up the Soviet toal quite a bit too.

You can call it BS if you want, thats not. Im not very surprised to see your lack of understanding when faced to the proofs that USSR and its block is not worst than USA and its block. The crimes I stated in the last post werent taken in account. If you check the post before the last post you'll se we arrive at 8,000,000 without all the crimes stated in thre last post. And when I talk about the deportation of black people, I am talking of their deportation, followed by hard labour until death.Just like the nazis did with the jews, the americans did it with the black.

Not to mention their use of German prisoners for slave labour.

Not to mention the USA's use of German scientists for previous human experimentations... Dr. Menguele was very useful to the US development of chemical weapons.

[GeneralTacticus]

No, we need to see if we're talking of the sphere of influence or of satellites, but obviously you cant make the difference.

Satellites are clearly within the sphere of influence, by definition. And for the most part, both sides protected their spheres of influence by creating satellites, so I'm not quite sure what your point here is...

No they are not, and that is why there is two expression to talk about it. Semantics, semantics
A satellite depends on the political or the economical power of the "mother state", while a client state places itself under the patronage of the "mother state".

With precisely the same result: the client or satellite follows the lead of its patron. Whether or not it can do without a patron is another matter.

Allies, indeed, not vassals. Europe has always wanted to saty in the middle of the two, thats why they created the European Union under all its different forms.

Europe was nowhere near the middle of the two sides. They were rather more left-wing than the US, but in most cases they were loyal allies. They were part of the Wester block, no matter how amny times you try to deny it. One doesn't have to be a vassal state to be part of the block.

Im not very surprised to see your lack of understanding when faced to the proofs that USSR and its block is not worst than USA and its block.

I'm not at all surprised at your efforts to whitewash the crimes of the USSR by claiming that they killed fewer people than the US.

The crimes I stated in the last post werent taken in account. If you check the post before the last post you'll se we arrive at 8,000,000 without all the crimes stated in thre last post.

Produce the numbers, please. I'm not going to accept your claim that they add up x without seeing what numbers you were adding up.

And when I talk about the deportation of black people, I am talking of their deportation, followed by hard labour until death.Just like the nazis did with the jews, the americans did it with the black.

So why are there sitl black people in America?

Not to mention the USA's use of German scientists for previous human experimentations... Dr. Menguele was very useful to the US development of chemical weapons.

I have absolutely no idea why you brought this up - I talk about the Soviet enslaveemnt of German POWs, and you start talking about the US employment of Nazi scientists?

[lucky22]

So where did the thumbnail of Marx labelled 'baku' on my harddrive come from? I have a couple of ideas, but at least one of them bodes real-life war, so I feel like I should be a conscientious inquirer.

[GeneralTacticus]

WoA, I believe you wanted to discuss crime and punihsment in a free society?

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus WoA, I believe you wanted to discuss crime and punihsment in a free society?

Noooooo, make it stop!!

[GeneralTacticus]

Oh, and one other thing about the capitalist/communist war crimes debate: if you want to talk about ideologies, rather than countries (which you said you did in the the post that started this whole thing off), then you really should include China under Mao and Cambodia under Pol Pot, too.

[Jamski]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
WoA, I believe you wanted to discuss crime and punihsment in a free society?

You believe correctly, my dear General. (w/apologies to Cedayon ) I'm interested in how you come to the idea that restricting peoples' freedom can make others "more free" Everyone is subject to the same laws, yes?

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

Yes, they are. However, the reason I believe restricting certain freedoms can enhance others is that certain acts restrict the freedom of others (e.g. tying someone up and holding them prisoner). Thus, if you can prevent peole from doing this, or at the very least make it harder to do it (and hence make people less likely to do it), then freedom has been enhanced.

IOW - I believe that the government should impose certain restrictions in order to prevent worse ones from being created.

[Jamski]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
IOW - I believe that the government should impose certain restrictions in order to prevent worse ones from being created.

The question is whether this is effective, and whether this actually creates a "more free" society. The main problem with locking people away to stop them committing crimes, is that the crimes are already committed. How are we to say that the criminal will repeat his offences? Not to mention the fact that many people lose thier liberty when their actions have not affected the liberty of another. For example people jailed for shoplifting, drug dealing, pornography trading etc. Clearly the biggest cause of "crime" is the legal system.

-Jam

[GeneralTacticus]

The main problem with locking people away to stop them committing crimes, is that the crimes are already committed. How are we to say that the criminal will repeat his offences?

When, for example, they are psychologically compelled to commit them, or when they've been warned previosuly not to commit them, and yet they still do.

Not to mention the fact that many people lose thier liberty when their actions have not affected the liberty of another. For example people jailed for shoplifting, drug dealing, pornography trading etc.

The fault in that case is unjust laws, not the existence of laws in the first place. btw, I consider shoplifting to be a violation of liberty, as you're taking someone else's property without their consent.

Clearly the biggest cause of "crime" is the legal system.

Well, without a legal system, crime cannot exist, ebcause nothing is a crime.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Satellites are clearly within the sphere of influence, by definition. And for the most part, both sides protected their spheres of influence by creating satellites, so I'm not quite sure what your point here is...

We can define the blocks in sevreal ways :
- the mother country, their satellites, their client states, and their allies
- the mother country, their satellites, and their client states
- the mother country and their satellites
or
- the mother country

Which geopolitical definition should we use for the blocks ?

With precisely the same result: the client or satellite follows the lead of its patron. Whether or not it can do without a patron is another matter.

Definetly not the same result. The importance of the influence of the mother state is definetly not the same if you're a client state or a satellite, and the ways used to make this influence respected differs a lot too. Thats why they cant be included in the same level of dependance to the "mother country".

Europe was nowhere near the middle of the two sides. They were rather more left-wing than the US, but in most cases they were loyal allies. They were part of the Wester block, no matter how amny times you try to deny it. One doesn't have to be a vassal state to be part of the block.

1948 : Five European countries sign the Brussels Treaty for mutual defence
1949 : Twelve nations sign the North Atlantic Treaty in Washington DC
European states were allies (except UK, which remains a vassal until nowadays), and if you consider allies to be part of the block (see definitions stated above) then China, Yougoslavia, India, etc... were always part of the eastern block. It all depends on the definiton we'll agree on though.

I'm not at all surprised at your efforts to whitewash the crimes of the USSR by claiming that they killed fewer people than the US.

F*ck off. I never said that USSR killed fewer people than the US, I said that their crimes was of the same importance, and that US shouldnt be taken as a good guy facing the USSR. I know its hard for you to read, and that you only read what you wish to read, but stop accusing me of things I never promoted.

Produce the numbers, please. I'm not going to accept your claim that they add up x without seeing what numbers you were adding up.

Now, you want a full list of bodycounts... Ok, Ill get it to you, let me the time to search for all the numbers.

So why are there sitl black people in America?

Because some survived ? Just like there is still jews in Poland and Germany.

I have absolutely no idea why you brought this up - I talk about the Soviet enslaveemnt of German POWs, and you start talking about the US employment of Nazi scientists?

Well, you talk about Soviet enslavment of German POWs, and I talk about US enslavment of German POWs, and I precise they were scientists. Is that really so hard to understand.