Playing Defensively

Goit · December 29, 2000, 22:45

It's a shame the AI plays Morgan worse than probably any other faction because of its insistance on running FM in keeping with the Morgan character.

The whole point of Morgan is NOT to run Free Market! - Morgan being the only faction that you can have the all-important +2 Econ (from Wealth) and still maintain a large standing airforce.
With Morgan you can play a purely defensive game from Doctine:Air Power (even more so after Clean reactors) onwards - secure your little corner of Planet, build a large standing airforce, a bunch of probes and run Green/Wealth.

You simply don't need to attack and can move for either transcendence or economic victory as your ultimate aim.

What I'm wondering is, are any of the other factions viable for a defensive game?
Obviously, the Caretakers suggest themselves with their +50% on defense but I wouldn't like to have to rely on that.

[This message has been edited by Goit (edited December 29, 2000).]

RedFred · December 29, 2000, 23:16

Good to see a Morgan fan posting.

By running wealth and not FM you really don't have to be too defensive. I would contend that running a faction that requires FM for the extra energy per worked tile would force you to play more defensively. Even so, after p-spheres you should be able to build a big army in FM including an airforce and go on the attack.

For me defensive play is as much a state of mind rather than something determined by the faction you get. But clearly the high tech or high cash faction like, for example, UoP and the Pirates, will work better than a low tech faction like the Believers or the Cult.

Goit · December 29, 2000, 23:40

quote:

Originally posted by RedFred on 12-29-2000 10:16 PM
Good to see a Morgan fan posting.

What? People actually play the other factions?!

Seriously though, I find Morgan produces the most interesting games. Though I especially like Roze and the Pirates too.

quote:

Originally posted by RedFred on 12-29-2000 10:16 PM
By running wealth and not FM you really don't have to be too defensive. I would contend that running a faction that requires FM for the extra energy per worked tile would force you to play more defensively. Even so, after p-spheres you should be able to build a big army in FM including an airforce and go on the attack.

I wasn't suggesting defensive play because you have to, rather as a consciously chosen plan from the start. (Although you have to be a lot more flexible in MP games, though I've only scant experience in that arena).
If your objective is to win as quickly as possible then defensive play means you need to build fewer units than when on the attack. Hence your industrial capacity can be directed toward lab/economy enhancers.

quote:

Originally posted by RedFred on 12-29-2000 10:16 PM
For me defensive play is as much a state of mind rather than something determined by the faction you get. But clearly the high tech or high cash faction like, for example, UoP and the Pirates, will work better than a low tech faction like the Believers or the Cult.

Clearly, although one of the main incentives for a defensive/non-aggressive stance is that it seems more in keeping with the Morgan character.

RedFred · December 30, 2000, 04:22

Cool. My whole post was quoted. I'm going to have to start charging.

Right you are about role-playing being a fun aspect of the game. When I am a peace-loving mood I favour the Gaians. In my case, this means starting no wars. Mind you, if the AI attacks me I have no problem punishing them for it. I also enjoy being eco-friendly in my SE choices and terraforming options.

I haven't seen you around this forum before, Goit. Welcome. And since you are a fan of Roze, I hope to see some tips from you on how to play her. She is one of the factions that I am weakest at.

Zonk · December 30, 2000, 06:04

Welcome Goit, it sounds like you play Morgan from the same standpoint that I do. I fully agree with your opinion of the AI playstyle. However, I did experience the AI gain an economic victory early in one game. It was before anyone had DAP, and I couldn't get to him in time to stop him.
I run FM up until I require more than the minimum military, usually up to the point where i begin my Air Force. Running Green, Morgan can be an awesome force. Converting all that energy lets me compete with just about anyone tech-wise, and if I can't keep up, just build a few probe ships and voila, you're right up to speed in no time. By late game, I'm running about 10/10/80, churning out tech quickly.
I have had much success with late-game Morgan. I can always count on having enough cash by the time I can start Transcendence; usually enough to buy the project almost immediately. I have to admit, it feels like a shallow victory.
Morgan rocks! I would probably have my hat handed to me if I played him in MP, but he is cool when going up against AI. Only Roze has really given me any trouble when playing Morgan. And it's so easy to ally with Deidre when running Green, and to get all those early eco techs.

grimreap · December 30, 2000, 09:11

Talking of playing defensively i just thought that i'd mention that i am what i consider to be a defensive player, i have only really ever played the University and try to avoid conflict, i mainly aim towards building.
I usually cover any land mass I'm on, with each new colony building 1 or 2 new colony pods (also a defender and former each) before building base improvements.
University seems to be a dificult faction for this tactic to work (but i just can't bring myself to use another

) especially due to the -2 probe rating.
Also, probably because of my advanced research and the fact that i usually get every SP, the other factions just don't like me, they always want to fight, even the Gaians and Morgan (damn those morganic probes!).

I'd be interested to hear anyone's ideas on what they think the best faction for defensive play is.

grimreap

mark13 · December 30, 2000, 10:20

grimreap,

The University's probe deficit is only really an issue before the HSA (assuming SP) - anything after that is eliminated immediately. As such, I find them the best faction to play defensively - not least of which with a reasonable airforce.

That said, the disadvantages of running FM become clear wth an airforce. Drones. Even so, you can usually afford to 'spend' one drone on an interceptor, and use rovers/tanks for counter-attacking strikes.

Christantine The Great · December 31, 2000, 01:10

I think that the best defensive faction is the CC. If you can secure even only 5 cities you can (eventually) get your research down to 5 turns per tech by running Demo/FM/Knowledge/(Not there yet). Of course it takes alot of luck to get this off if you are playing Blind. Your main aim is to snag as many early SPs to get an advantage and to maintain a large amount of SPs throughout the game. Don't forget the importance of short wars, the CC's only way to keep up their research and to keep away enemies at the same time. If you happen to get Wealth before Knowledge then use that first to rake in the profits.

grimreap · January 2, 2001, 20:08

mark13, i tend to rely on the HSA but it does take a while to get usually. I can't belive that in SMACX there is nothing to protect against probes (as the HSA does), what a bummer.

BTW I tried playing with Lal but it's really hard to change strategy, don't you think?

grimreap · January 2, 2001, 20:11

quote:

Don't forget the importance of short wars, the CC's only way to keep up their research and to keep away enemies at the same time.

Christantine,
By this do you mean acquiring techs via the "Spoils of War" rule?

[This message has been edited by grimreap (edited January 02, 2001).]

Misotu · January 2, 2001, 21:28

I'm talking MP here, not SP. In SP, a defensive strategy rules, no question.

In MP, any decent builder faction can play a credible defensive strategy. My favourites would be PKs or Gaians - not UoP, strangely, although that's probably my weakness. I'm not fond of drones.

There are many players here who would say that there is *no* viable defensive strategy. These are people who beeline for nerve gas/air and then blast everything in sight with the objective of being Irradiated Desert Ruler

Well. Yes. There is a lot of truth to this. Defending is hard, because you have to defend *everywhere*. An attacker can pick a single point, and concentrate all their forces there. The defender cannot choose the point at which battle will begin - and therefore must expend huge resources reinforcing everywhere.

However, that is not the end of the story. The simplest defensive strategy is the one where you gain, and maintain, a strong tech lead. This will mean AAA, probability armour (at least), tachyon and ODPs plus the Hunter Seeker. Even in SMAX, this SP provides some protection. In order to get this far, you will already have tree farms and those critical food/energy/mineral orbital improvements. As a result, by keeping your empire *small* but highly developed, I have found it to be possible to play defensively and succeed.

It is easier to do this with a pop-boom-capable faction, which is why I would not consider the CyC to be an ideal candidate.

It is important to remember that the best form of defence is offence. Your goal is to watch constantly for possible attack, and be ready to counter it with ultimate force while continuing to build. To be successful, this strategy requires infiltration of all possible aggressors and a serious tech lead. And I mean *serious*. As in, you have ODPs before (preferably) but very soon after the opposition has buster capability. When they have air, you have air, MMI and tachyon.

It's not a winning strategy my friends

Get air, nerve gas, choppers and be ruthless. This is not what I do ... but I know that it's a better strategy. Just not to my taste.

Skanderbeg · January 3, 2001, 05:27

My opinion to defensive play:
In most parts of the game, especially if you play blind
research, weapon will be stronger than the armour availiable at the same time. Particle weapons kills synthmetal, chaos gun kills 3-res etc. (On the other hand, I remember one funny blind research game, in which for a long time the leading 3 factions, including me playing Yang, had photon(5) armour but only missile(6)weapon!).
So I think it is not a good idea to rely on the armour of your garrison if Your enemies rovers(especially if it's Miriam with her 25% attack bonus) appear.
So I normally play a "offensive defensive" stile, whish is suitable for nearly all factions. Each base has at least 1 offensive unit (best weapon rover or best weapon needlejet), front bases at least two offensive units to kill any enemy unit BEFORE it can attack my base. But I am careful by moving in enemy territory, even if I am in vendetta with a neighboured faction.
Only if I am sure that I am strong enough, I will make a fast strike with an overwhelming force (and of course the use of probe teams in the same turn), capture one base and offer peace (and the treaty to get more $).
Exception of course if someone pisses me really off. If I am stronger than him (or her), I don't stop war befor I hear him crying in my punishment sphere!

cbn · January 3, 2001, 10:01

I agree with the idea that the best defense is usually to have a strong offensive unit around to kill the attackers. I usually hate getting attacked since attackers usually win.

BUT-- last night the Caretakers came up as my random faction and (since I had never played them ) I decided to give them a whirl.

The 3r armour rules the early game. I ended up as very close neighbors to Miriam and Domai but with some adequate empty space to develop in the other direction. Defense was easy-- I just stacked 2 3r units on key points and concentrated on building. I built 0 offensive units as there were 3 captured worms for counterattacks.

When war came Miriam sent wave after wave of laser rovers at my units (3r -- 25% sensor, 25% Alien defense and 50% rocky)-- It was amusing and reminded me of Civ2 where the AI would bash unit after unit against stacked units on mountaintops. One unit lost to Miriams 14 thus far and I am essentially ignoring the war (other than rotating in fresh units and sending damaged ones to a nearby monolith) and developing as a builder.

Lessons ?? other than the fact that the aliens are as overpowered as everyone says --- This was a situation where defense worked and even then if the AI had impact weapons it would be much less effective. However the result is good terraforming and lots of facilities such that outproduction of neighbors will be a snap when it comes time to attack. HeHEHe

[This message has been edited by cbn (edited January 03, 2001).]

Velociryx · January 10, 2001, 08:55

Good to see that there are at least a few fans of ardent defensive play out there, and I quite agree with Mis on this....the game is fundamentally the same every time if you use the tried-and-true rover rush and nerve gas 'em all to death approach, and after a while, it's like watching reruns of MASH....just not overly entertaining.

The real fun for me lies in the subtleties of the game....and Builders (since they have heavy infrastructure) tend to have the full array of tricks and toys to play with. Not much is subtle about an x-chaos chopper. Effective, true, but why kill a fly with a sledge hammer when a flyswatter will do the trick?

Just my two cents...

-=Vel=-

Lord Maxwell · January 11, 2001, 03:56

You can play morgan with a defensive air force even in free market. It is the inability to play fm properly that cripples the computer, not fm per se.

For every 10-15 cities you have you designate an air force base city. You build a (total brain lag, the building that takes away all drones and talents, but halves research output), you crawler in enough minerals to support your 15 or 30 (do you want 1 or 2 planes in each real city?) interceptors, support them from that base, and move them to the bases to defend.

Any base within 8 moves from the air base can build an interceptor, it moves there in one turn and is supported from there ever after.

Thus you maintain the wild advantages of FM and can still be a huge defensive force.

If you want to go to war, just add a few fleet bases, and a land force base or two, support 15 to 30 units in each of em, and go to war.

With crawlers this can be real easy.

Off course, these bases need very little in the way of infrastructure, no need to build tech enhancing facilities, nor to build drone control facilities.