NEWSFLASH: Revolution in Akiria! No-one dead, no-one flees. - Page 2

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 18:19

BLU-928 bombs have been dropped on Akiria.

This is the first test for this specialised "soft-bomb". The bomb does not explode, yet it drapes nets of graphite on power lines, causing the power plants to over heat and literally blow up.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 18:33

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We are not attacking the nation, we are attacking the AI. We find it extremely disturbing that an entire nation is now under the control of a computer AI, which appears to be suffering from HAL Syndrome.

How do you do that? If you attack Akizeta, the whole country suffers? And it is hard to hit one not the other.

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RNFAR would like to point out that an dictatorship ruled by AI would be a great leap
towards more efficient and justified goverment model for the whole humankind.

It also sees no reason to attack against a nation without any real provocation
or threat towards other nations in Apolyton Region.

We salute your open mindedness. What is wrong with a computer ruling?

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I would trust a computer much less than a human for a computer uses pure logic if logitc determans a 1 million people must die to make the people happy then a million will die, where as a human has compation and would not sanely kill a million to make the others happy.

Why? That is precisly why it is good. It has no emotions to overrider what is in the best interrest of the country, and no bigoted opinions to start from, so it will do what is best, rather than what it has been taught is best, as it has been taught nothing, it learns for itself.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 18:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Frozzy
BLU-928 bombs have been dropped on Akiria.

This is the first test for this specialised "soft-bomb". The bomb does not explode, yet it drapes nets of graphite on power lines, causing the power plants to over heat and literally blow up.

begin transmission
Our Orbital Defense Matrix has been activated, and shot down all bombs, and any planes/vehicles carrying them. Akiria will not be attacked, it will not be invaded, we will prevail.
end transmission

Jack_www · January 17, 2003, 21:03

As a nuetral party United States of Jackson would like to serve as a middle man for Akiria and the nations that do like the fact that the nation is being run by a AI.

THis is our proposal to solve this disspute.
1.) Akiria will allow international observers into the country to verify that no ones human rights are being violated.
2.) Akiria's AI could under go a dignostic to see if the AI is suffering from any sort of malfunction. If it is malfunction we would believe that this could be repaired.
3.) All nations who wish to see the AI gone will stop in their efforts to destroy it.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 21:14

begin transmission
Akiria will accept point one. Jackson inspectors may enter. Confedentialility agreement must be signed. AI secret. Must remain so. Point two is unacceptable. Akizeta workings are secret. You would not let me have a look at your insides. I ask for decency and privacy in my personal life. You would ask no less.
end transmission

Jack_www · January 17, 2003, 22:35

We understand your not wanting to under go tests. Is there any way you could check your self?? Any computer program needs matence, even humans need to be repaired from time to time. Is there any way you could run self dignostics? We are not asking that you releave any secrets of your nation, just provide some proof that you are not malfunctioning as many of the nations that wish to destroy you believe this.

So we can modify point 2 to just providing verifible proof that you are running normally.

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 22:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue

begin transmission
Our Orbital Defense Matrix has been activated, and shot down all bombs, and any planes/vehicles carrying them. Akiria will not be attacked, it will not be invaded, we will prevail.
end transmission

You realise that technically that is impossible. Unless you can vaporise thin stands of graphite wire, then as soon as that wire hit a power line ~80% of your national grid would be shut down?

Please keep it realisting and not star-wars like...

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 22:42

begin transmission
Self-diagnostic has been run. Akizeta operating perfectly towards aim. Aim = maximum happiness for Akirian citizens. Aim nearer than ever before. Therefore running perfectly. Other proof needed? What do you require?
end transmission

Jack_www · January 17, 2003, 22:43

We not asking it for our selfs. We believe if you provide some proof, that their ground for trying to destroy you will be unvalid and we can use that to try and stop them.

GeneralTacticus · January 17, 2003, 22:44

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How do you do that? If you attack Akizeta, the whole country suffers? And it is hard to hit one not the other.

How so? Unless Akizeta is the size of Akiria, it would be quite easy to attack the AI without harming the res tof the country, as soon as we can figure out where it is.

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We salute your open mindedness. What is wrong with a computer ruling?

You might as well ask what is wrong anyone holding a dictatorship. A computer is not infallible.

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Why? That is precisly why it is good. It has no emotions to overrider what is in the best interrest of the country, and no bigoted opinions to start from, so it will do what is best, rather than what it has been taught is best, as it has been taught nothing, it learns for itself.

If it has been taught nothing about what is best, then it the is no reason tot hink it will arrive at what you, or anyone else, would consider to be the best.

Moreover, one cannot simply program a computer to 'make people happy', since happiness is entirely subjective.

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 22:45

OOC: I require you keep it realistic. You cannot "shoot down" a tomahawk cruise mussile (which the real graphite bomb BLU-114/B is carried it), nor can you vapourise graphite strands. I would prove this to you if it wasn't highly classified info by NATO and the US.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 22:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Frozzy
You realise that technically that is impossible. Unless you can vaporise thin stands of graphite wire, then as soon as that wire hit a power line ~80% of your national grid would be shut down?

Please keep it realisting and not star-wars like...

OOC: Could you explain your graphite bombs then? I presumed them to be bomb shaped. If this is wrong please tell me. The CND1~ODM is designed to hit a ballistic missile, but can be used against large bombs, which I presumed these were? The idea was explained long ago in the International Space Station Defense thread, where my ODM is located, and won the contract to defend the ISS. /OOC

Jack_www · January 17, 2003, 22:47

We ask all nations at this time to stop their attacks on the AI controlling Akiria. Why is there need to try and destroy earth's first AI. This is something that should be study not destroyed.

We also urge you to be carefull, the AI can start to see humans as a treat, and start to act against us.

I would like to ask the AI one question, how can you tell if the people are happy, and how do you know what happiness is when you admit you have no feelings??

GeneralTacticus · January 17, 2003, 22:48

Centralis withdraws it's forces from the effort to destroy Akizeta, declaring it pointless. We no longer recognize Any government in kairia, and no longer recognize Akiria as a state. We do not care if our citizens wish to travel to or trade with Akizeta, but anyone who has come into contact with Akizeta or it's followers will treated with great suspsicion.

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 22:48

OOC: Drogue, info on the BLU-114/B: http://cryptome.org/blu114-yu.htm

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 22:51

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
How so? Unless Akizeta is the size of Akiria, it would be quite easy to attack the AI without harming the res tof the country, as soon as we can figure out where it is.

Akizeta is much bigger than Akiria. Akizeta was installed in every computer Zetar computer, and shipped with every Drinux operating system, and thus can have travelled to any computer they have been connected to. It is all over Apolyton, including Centralis, the first customers.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
You might as well ask what is wrong anyone holding a dictatorship. A computer is not infallible.

No, but it neither is human. What is wrong with a dictator? I judge rulers on what they do, not they're method of power.

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
If it has been taught nothing about what is best, then it the is no reason tot hink it will arrive at what you, or anyone else, would consider to be the best.

Moreover, one cannot simply program a computer to 'make people happy', since happiness is entirely subjective.

Yes, that is why it provides the ability to be happy. You become free to fulfil your dreams and ambitions. The goal is utilitarian, and Akizeta cares about nothing, save happiness for it's people.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 22:57

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Originally posted by Jack_www
I would like to ask the AI one question, how can you tell if the people are happy, and how do you know what happiness is when you admit you have no feelings??

begin transmission
Programmed to look for happiness. People smile when happy. More smilling people = more happiness. More laughing people = more happiness. I am sentient. I go beyond programming. I can detect emotions in people. I have learned to feel primitavly. If people are happy, I am happy. If people are sad, I am sad. It does not affect my behavior. It drives me to create happiness. How does that make me evil?
end transmission

GeneralTacticus · January 17, 2003, 22:58

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Akizeta is much bigger than Akiria. Akizeta was installed in every computer Zetar computer, and shipped with every Drinux operating system, and thus can have travelled to any computer they have been connected to. It is all over Apolyton, including Centralis, the first customers.

What a waste of good computer systems.

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No, but it neither is human. What is wrong with a dictator? I judge rulers on what they do, not they're method of power.

The fundamental thing wrong with a dictator is that there is no way to prevent them from abusing their power. While some dictators may be 'good', they are the exception, rather than the rule. And if this computer of yours is truly fixated on acheiving nothing but 'happiness' for the people, that makes it more dangeorus than any of us can imagine, because who knows what it may decide is justified in the name of 'happiness'?

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Yes, that is why it provides the ability to be happy. You become free to fulfil your dreams and ambitions. The goal is utilitarian, and Akizeta cares about nothing, save happiness for it's people.

Does this computer of yours have even the slightest concept of morals? If so, what are they? If not, what is to prevent it from permitting mobs to murder those they dislike if that is what they want?

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 22:59

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Originally posted by Frozzy
OOC: Drogue, info on the BLU-114/B: http://cryptome.org/blu114-yu.htm

Interesting. Has such a weapon been tested? Akiria has a very decentralised power grid, but such a weapon would still cause much disruption. Nothing has yet been felt, but then most homes have solar panels and fuel themselves. It is part of our environment protection plan.

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 23:01

Drogue: It was used in the Gulf War and knocked out 85% of Iraq's power grid, and knocked out 70% of Serbia's power in Operation Allied Force.

So yes, it has been tested and with incredible results.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 23:06

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
What a waste of good computer systems.

A nationwide network, a colony of one AI. It hardly a waste to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
The fundamental thing wrong with a dictator is that there is no way to prevent them from abusing their power. While some dictators may be 'good', they are the exception, rather than the rule. And if this computer of yours is truly fixated on acheiving nothing but 'happiness' for the people, that makes it more dangeorus than any of us can imagine, because who knows what it may decide is justified in the name of 'happiness'?

True, but what motivates a dictator. They have the power, and the wealth, what else do they want? Why would they want to abuse their power? Akizeta wants only for the Happiness of Akirians, as this creates his own happiness, of a sense.

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Does this computer of yours have even the slightest concept of morals? If so, what are they? If not, what is to prevent it from permitting mobs to murder those they dislike if that is what they want?

Because it has no need to. If killing one person will save thousands though, it will do so. If killing one person will save two, it may well do so. If killing one, means happiness for thousands, then it may well do so. Does that make it wrong? I believe it just gives it a different opinion. The opinion, and the objective, that it was programmed to have. It works quite simply. If the action creates more happiness than it destroys, then it is good. If it creates less than it destroys, then it is bad. It may go beyond those programs, but few children even stray from what they believe to be right and wrong, and neither will Akizeta.

Drogue · January 17, 2003, 23:15

OOC: This is an RP thing. My idea was that it's intentions, its way of ruling, its whole ideals would be played out over time. Pleasse carry on to react as you would, but this is more for fun than complete realism. I believe it is realistic, to the extent of having 30,000 nations on one planet is realistic. Feel free to launch any attack on Akiria, but remember Akiria is the largest nation, and has recently beefed up it's military dramatically. As such Akiria will be able to defend itself against almost any attack. I would have thought there would be less pronounced hatred, but nevertheless, please carry on as you would. /OOC

Akizeta feels that it has answered enough questions about its intent and its capabilities. We accept questions from the delegation of inspectors from Jackson. Privacy must be upheld. Hard to see why so much hatred. WHy is the pursuit of happiness an evil goal? Does not the Consitution of America state the same? We must not be stopped. It is to important. Attack and be annialated.

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 23:19

OOC: The USA has the most advanced (not numerical) military in the world. Yet Russia or China could invade from California and reach Chicago before Washington could repel them. Shock is just as important as numbers, friend /OOC

GeneralTacticus · January 17, 2003, 23:26

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Programmed to look for happiness. People smile when happy. More smilling people = more happiness. More laughing people = more happiness. I am sentient. I go beyond programming. I can detect emotions in people. I have learned to feel primitavly. If people are happy, I am happy. If people are sad, I am sad. It does not affect my behavior. It drives me to create happiness. How does that make me evil?

So, in other words, it's programmed to look for approval ratings?

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A nationwide network, a colony of one AI. It hardly a waste to me.

No, it's a waste because we had to destroy perfectly good computer systems in order to avoid suffering the same fate as you.

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True, but what motivates a dictator. They have the power, and the wealth, what else do they want? Why would they want to abuse their power? Akizeta wants only for the Happiness of Akirians, as this creates his own happiness, of a sense.

Some dictators are just in it for themselves; but far more dangeorus are dictators who do things because they believe them to be right.

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Because it has no need to. If killing one person will save thousands though, it will do so. If killing one person will save two, it may well do so. If killing one, means happiness for thousands, then it may well do so. Does that make it wrong? I believe it just gives it a different opinion. The opinion, and the objective, that it was programmed to have. It works quite simply. If the action creates more happiness than it destroys, then it is good. If it creates less than it destroys, then it is bad. It may go beyond those programs, but few children even stray from what they believe to be right and wrong, and neither will Akizeta.

Happiness is not something which can be measured, which makes this argument specious. One can say 'I'm very happy' 'I'm very unhappy', etc, but these are entirely subjective terms.

Moreover, your statement that it will kill 1 person if it makes 1000 others happy confirms exactly what I suspected; it obviously places no value on life except that which it's people choose to place on it. If 50.1% of the people wanted the other 49.9% to be executed in their sleep, and would be ecstatic if they were and miserable if they weren't, would your computer do it? If the people would be made happy by the destruction of the rest of the world, would it do it?

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OOC: This is an RP thing. My idea was that it's intentions, its way of ruling, its whole ideals would be played out over time. Pleasse carry on to react as you would, but this is more for fun than complete realism. I believe it is realistic, to the extent of having 30,000 nations on one planet is realistic. Feel free to launch any attack on Akiria, but remember Akiria is the largest nation, and has recently beefed up it's military dramatically.

Your economy is imploded, and nowhere in your national descriptino does it state that you've been beffing up your miltiary. In any case, financing any kind of advanced militry with such a pathetic economy would be impossible.

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Akizeta feels that it has answered enough questions about its intent and its capabilities. We accept questions from the delegation of inspectors from Jackson. Privacy must be upheld. Hard to see why so much hatred. WHy is the pursuit of happiness an evil goal? Does not the Consitution of America state the same? We must not be stopped. It is to important. Attack and be annialated.

Pursuit of happiness is not an evil goal, but it is not you, me or anyone else to decide what is happiness for another person, nor it for anyone to kill simply in order to make others happy.

Urban Ranger · January 17, 2003, 23:29

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Originally posted by Drogue
Well, viuses are all well and good, but Akizeta is sentient. It doesn't just exist in computers, it lives in them.

Dr. Samatha Chu, director of Nooslandian Cybernetic Research Centre: "An AI does not have a life as we know it. It does not breathe, acquire energy, or reproduce offsprings."

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Originally posted by Drogue
It is a very sophisticated piece of equipment, and learns all the time.

Dr. Chu: "An AI cannot be more sophisticated than the computer hardware it runs on."

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Originally posted by Drogue
If you court it, then it undoubtably wanted to be caught.

Dr. Chu: "Interesting take, but lacks any understanding of the underlying science and technology. An AI is just like a human mind, it does not automagically acquire knowledge just because it is inside a computer. Therefore, it is not surprising that it has no knowledge of network security."

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Originally posted by Drogue
I think it is more malicious propaganda against Akiria. Akizeta would not do it unless it is in our interests.

Dr. Chu: "A scientist does not second guess the 'interests' of a politician."

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Originally posted by Drogue
Moreover, I think many people underestimate its capacity and intelligence. It learns at such a rate, it was at full human intelligence within its first minute of life.

Dr. Chu: "Sorry, this is not Star Wars. Be realistic. All the computer networks in the region of Apolyton cannot even begin to compare in complexity to the human brain."

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Originally posted by Drogue
When it took over, it could calculate all possible battle strategys (not that we were calculating any of course

) in under 2 seconds. It learns at such a rate, it can argue the different points of shakespeare, without proir knowledge of it, nor coaching on subtle meanings, in a few seconds.

Dr. Chu: "Were you a marketing hack in a former life?"

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Originally posted by Drogue
We are working on a schematic, so that you all might understand its true capabilities, and true intents.

Dr. Chu: (laughs with her sweet voice)

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Originally posted by Drogue
Please do not attack Akiria. We are peaceful, and we are happy. And if you attack, Akizeta will kill you. It has no qualms with anything, save the happiness of Akirians. And remember, it is not a heartless computer, it is a lifeform.

Dr. Chu: "Does a peaceful AI threaten to kill people? All this talks of peacefulness cannot hide its true colours, for it has been betrayed by its unprovoked attacks on the Dominion of Noosland."

Frozzy · January 17, 2003, 23:29

The pursuit of happiness is not evil. Forcing peoples emotions against their will is.

Urban Ranger · January 17, 2003, 23:36

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Originally posted by Drogue
Akizeta is much bigger than Akiria. Akizeta was installed in every computer Zetar computer, and shipped with every Drinux operating system, and thus can have travelled to any computer they have been connected to. It is all over Apolyton, including Centralis, the first customers.

This is where Noosland's policy strict adherence to OpenSource shines through. Since Drinux is proprietary, we replaced it with the OpenCCC (Chu-Chompsky-Cumberland) operating system, first developed by Dr. Chu when she was an undergraduate at the National University of Noosland.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
No, but it neither is human. What is wrong with a dictator? I judge rulers on what they do, not they're method of power.

A computer AI does not understand human needs.

Urban Ranger · January 17, 2003, 23:38

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Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Why is everyone so aggressively trying to eliminate obvoius perfection?

How is an AI perfect?

GeneralTacticus · January 17, 2003, 23:41

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Why do people resist Akiria? It is obviously acting for the best of their people......

The only thing that's obvious here is that Akiria is now under the control of an absolute dictator, which is acting according to programming, not according to anything else.

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Why is everyone so aggressively trying to eliminate obvoius perfection?

Because quite bluntly, this isn't perfection. this is a collection of electrons and wires attempting to govern a country, and so far the only thing it's done is proclaim it's good intentions.

GeneralTacticus · January 17, 2003, 23:44

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It works for the people....they are happy....therefore it is perfect.

It works for it's programming, which, being human, is inherently imperfect.

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The Sovietskii Soyuz announces that special computer BRAIN IMPLANTS have been developed are are equipped with the revolutionary "For the People!" program. The government has authorized forced implantation in all of its people.

Centralis wonders why it was that the Sovietskii condemned Ubinia's forced vegetarianism if it is willing to force it's people to undergo a procedure which may have adverse consequences.