Taming the Beast (i.e. Carthage)

[Sperricles]

Carthage has received a significant amount of attention in recent forums with an ever growing consensus promoting it as the "Civ of Civs". Indeed, those who play MP - and particularly in duels - against Hannibal can easily look at marching Numidians and picture his historic march on Rome. So the question this thread proposes is “How did Rome neutralize him then, and how can we do that now”?

The context of this discussion should pertain mainly to the MP environment where “simultaneous moves” seems to be the predominant choice. Consideration should also be given to the 1 vs. 1 "dueling" environment.

Sun Tzu and I would recommend enumerating Carthage's strengths and weaknesses and then studying methods to respectively neutralize or leverage them. So, here are the results of my personal brainstorming. I do not propose this as an exhaustive list, nor do I claim that all ideas are of equal merit.

STRENGTHS:

1. Industry
Faster roads/mines/tile improvements or equivalent speed with less sacrificed population
Quick, far-reaching road networks
Quicker roads to strategic and luxury resources
Increased trade and shields much earlier
Early access to city walls (as if the 3 defense was not enough)
Easy wonder planning (start with Pyramids and switch)
Extra shield for bigger cities

2. Versatile Numidian Mercenaries 2/3/1
Defense
Think twice about attacking a city defended by them
(3 times if there are city walls)
Attackers will need extra defense since even the city defenders can attack

Pillage
3 defense stops most attempts to remove the pillager
(Especially early on when units attack with a 2 at best)
2 Attack can retaliate on weak units sent to remove the pillager

Recovery
Injured Nums heal well on nearby hill/mtns without additional units to defend
After 1 turn rest they can probably defend from your pursuing unit there
Lure of killing a strong defender is good at bating units out of cities
Injured units not off the beaten path can quickly reach cities to heal

3. Roads + Nums equates to a far-reaching mobile defense with a moderate attack.
This is also useful in defending against pillages on the tiles 2 squares from city centers

4. Mathematics/Catapults
Easy to obtain when you start with Masonry and Alphabet
Numidians will sing songs as they escort catapults next to your cities
It will not take long for your city walls to fall (assuming you built them)

5. Commerce
Less corruption and that extra trade square for bigger cities never hurts


WEAKNESSES:

1. Unit Cost:
Nums are expensive at 30 shields

2. Unit Speed:
Nums are slow (if you can pillage roads or attack from a direction with none). Early exploration is also limited to slow warriors

3. Anarchy:
The nonreligious brutes will have a good period of anarchy sometime.

4. Iron:
Scientific and expansionist civs can find border iron first and claim it easier

5. Pillage:
Industrious workers will probably make plenty of squares to pillage
Fast pillagers (Jaguar/Impi) can succeed especially with "proper timing"

"Proper timing" means waiting just before turn ends to move pillager in.
Then immediately pillaging and running when the new turn starts.

6. Early Rush:
Hannibal does not start with bronze
A close starting player might be able fight warrior on warrior for the capital
(Especially if you are the Aztecs)
If lucky and he skips the warrior and waits for the Num Merc, you might walk in!

7. Science:
A scientific civ (or better yet sci/ind) could win the research battle.
By surviving to Middle Ages, cavalry could finally fuel a good attack.

8. Golden Age:
Exploring warriors can easily trigger Carthage's GA prematurely.

9. Improvements:
Carthage gets no discounts on rel, sci, or mil improvements
Rel civs can leverage temples for border culture flips (though rare)
Sci civs can leverage libraries and work for cavalry
Mil civs can leverage the barracks and walls

[Sperricles]

Having brainstormed and analyzed the above strengths and weaknesses, I will now suggest some non-civ-specific ways for dealing with Carthage.


To attack or not to attack? That should be the first question, and in most cases the answer should be a resounding "NO". Even if you know that war is inevitable the answer should still usually be a "NO, not until I have no better option". Now, let me explain.

When you truly analyze Carthage, you find that their core competency is building and securing an expansive empire. They have the roads to make it vast, the defense to hold it, and the decreased corruption to make it worth the effort. The first way to handle them is to expand as fast as they do and right at them to fill in the gap. And remember their strength is their defense, not their attack. It will still be hard for them to take cities from you. It's much easier to claim the territory yourself, than it is to reclaim it against a 2 or 3 defense. This applies to both them and you. Industrious civs will do well at matching the pace and will also be able to match all of the industry related advantages Carthage would otherwise have.

When the gap between you and them is filled, worries and desires for war will begin to abound. However, if Carthage still has other directions for expansion, the packed border may still not be a sure sign of war. Remember, they want to get those cities built and triple defended first, because it will be so hard for anyone else to take it from them and that is their biggest advantage.

When all land becomes scarce, then you must start worrying. If you are lucky, they will just try to grow the cities they already have, but don't count on it. They know a 3 defense is a good war characteristic as well. You must be prepared for war, and for their attempts to pillage you. One way to discourage their desire to pillage is, where reasonable and possible, leave your adjacent border squares undeveloped, and focus on inner empire squares as much as possible. If they "see" less to pillage, maybe they'll pick a different neighbor for those first easy pillages, or so they don’t have to build roads themselves when they take the city.

If you are not in a duel, work on building allies, and certainly don't exclude Carthage from your list of potential allies. Even they will struggle fighting two nations at once. If you are their ally, try to build their dependence on your luxury resources if possible which is much preferable to being a subservient tech ally only to see the techs you researched become implemented at industrial speed and then reversed on you.

Ok, now I'll admit at some point there will be war between you, and if it can't be delayed till after the ancient era, you have to do something.

Point #1, if you have to kill something early on that has a 3 defense, your odds are awful against his walled cities, bad in his territory, better in open field, good in your own territory, and best when defending your cities. If you have focused more on developing inner empire tiles and reserving adjacent border tiles for last, it will take him longer to find pillageable (how do you spell that anyway?) material and give you more time to respond without when you see him coming (since fortunately his units are once again slow on your roads (or your lack thereof). Also note that if he is fighting in your land he has many units "in inventory" meaning every single turn he has to support a larger army than you do. Why? Because on any given turn, some of his attackers are in transit whereas on any given turn your units are right in your empire or even born at the battle site! This means you can resist him with a slightly smaller number of units!

Point #2, Fight fire with fire! Remember those Mercs are only average attackers and cost 30 shields compared to the spearman's 20. Especially if you have to go to war in the early game, send your spearmen to do some revenge pillaging. If he sends Num Mercs to intercept, then he's wasting shields for an even 2 attack vs. a 2 defense. If he fortifies the improvements with Num Mercs, then at least they are not in your territory and again he has a 30 shield burden vs. your 20. If he decides to build archers for equal resource battles, then at least you are fighting something that anyone can build and you are used to, and it means fewer Num Mercs to have to deal with.

Point #3, Consider catapults. Catapults were designed to wear down the highly fortified places, and using them against Num Mercs fortified against your city is the one scenario (besides city wall destruction) that may actually justify these contraptions. If he is not counting on it, and you surprise him with enough catapults to badly damage those mercs escorting the iron attackers, he may actually think about pulling out when the odds become even.

Point #4, When you are certain that you are going to lose your city, pillage yourself for all you are worth, focusing on roads. Your 2 movement units are great for this task. Use the "Proper timing" principle to pillage squares adjacent to the city and get back to the city for an attack. If he has been counting on using your roads to continue the advance, it will take him a little still to get his workers there to rebuild and advance.

Point #5, Pray for iron and have workers away from the attack working furiously to road out to where it may be.

Point #6, (Ok, this is getting really desperate) If your lucky, and you think you can outguess and time his pillager's next move, thwart it with a spearman right before he moves in. I mention this only because if your opponent subscribes to the "proper timing" principle he may wait to move in for the pillage till the very end of the turn, when he thinks you are done moving. If you can spare a spearman, move him into the square you think he's trying to get to, and do it at the last second. You may be able to force his Num Merc into an unexpected attack battle with even terms (2attack 2defence). The "proper timing" principle is also good for capturing catapults/workers that end their turn 2 squares from your city and happen to be unescorted.

Additional Notes: Terrain makes a difference. If you have a large jungle/mountain expanse or of course a choke point, Carthage's roads may choose to ignore you. But be careful with the mountains since a 3 defense there is virtually unstoppable early on. Also, if Carthage is on a peninsula you should naturally be more cautious of war than if they are in the center of a Pangea.

[Sperricles]

Ok, this is the part I am counting on people disagreeing with. But I welcome the criticism and new ideas. In this section, I am proposing civ-specific strategies for taming the beast. Why? Because game setup gives you the option of planning who you will be and more so, in a duel, that is crucial.

Here are what I call the "Lion Tamer" civs:

Persians

By its industrial nature, Persia matches all the industrial advantages Carthage would otherwise retain. Persia also can research iron as its first advance, which may help overcome Persia's Achilles heel by allowing roads and expansion to be guided sooner... straight for that iron. (scouting warriors are critical here as well).

Everyone criticizes Persia for two reasons: Complete dependence on iron, and the 4/2/1 "Persian Expendables". While I agree with the first argument, I wish to renew respect and put the capital "I" back in the word "Immortal", whom I believe is really only misunderstood. Devoted Civers who truly love the Persians may claim that Immortals are good for conquest when in very large numbers. I believe they have a better use: defending cities.

Now I can hear the brotherhood of Immortals begin to rejoice and sing their ancient hymns because if anyone can peel Numidians off of your cities, Immortals CAN!! And what's more, the bigger the stack of Carthaginian units brought against your city, the more the Immortals will excel!!! This is because when attacking a stack of units, a victorious, but badly bruised Immortal does not leave his square...meaning he is still in the city where he will heal quickly and is protected with the Persian's walls and spearmen (both available from turn 0). The roads will allow him to peel off pillagers easily too and still return home, though he should try where possible to peel them off at the very end of the turn, so he can quickly return to base at the beginning of the next turn and minimize exposure.

If you are not in a duel, everything so far should be enough to convince Hannibal and everyone else to go home and look for someone easier. If you are in a duel, you need a little more. You can try the above mentioned advice marching a stack of 10+ immortals at a city, or you can just weather out the storm and beat Carthage down the tech tree. When you get Pikemen, the tide will turn in your favor! And if you can get enough of a tech lead to get Cavalry long enough before your opponent, you can launch your counter attack! In summary, there are 3 P's: “Persians, Patience, and Prayers for iron”.


Zulus

Num Mercs can be made to pillage, but nobody.....nobody beats the Zulus at their own game. It will be fighting fire with fire, but the difference is that every Impi was born with a motorcycle and a flame thrower. The Zulus must leverage their speed: speedy exploration, speed to the huts, speedy barracks, speedy fortified Impi on Carthage's Iron mountains and hills, and of course speedy pillaging. With a little luck, Impi speed can carry off workers that stray near Carthage's borders and even get an occasional settler. Also note that the bite of the Impi's pillaging speed DOUBLES when combined with the "proper timing" principle! And the defense of 2 with only 20 shields can put 30-shield, 2-attacking Numidians in a pickle.

The Zulu are less dependent on iron, and really only have one flaw here. The Zulus are a gas stove, quick to ignite and quick to go out. Carthage is an electric stove - slow to start, but difficult to turn off once it really gets going. If the Zulus are not effective at pillaging and doing it early, the flame may go out as Carthage's technology from roads, and broad expansion base pushes it far ahead and it becomes a microwave. The Zulus must QUICKLY and persistently paralyze Carthage.

Aztecs

Compared to the Zulus, the Aztecs ride bicycles and carry cigarette lighters, but don't underestimate them. While everyone who walks is trying to get a drivers license, jaguars can do twice the damage as an Impi for the same cost. And they don't have to wait for bronze working to start it. If they are lucky and start nearby, they may well get a warrior vs. warrior attack on your capital in the first turns, or just walk in.

Jaguars cannot rely on defense as much as Impi though, so they do well to pillage at intervals and/or in swarms. Unfortunately, jaguars can't sit on and hold Carthage's iron hills and mountains as nicely either, so swarms of pillagers attacking from all sides is even more crucial. Carthage will probably still be able to build that one city right on the iron hill though.

You may be tempted to send 3-4 veteran jaguars at that Num Merc and wear him down in a battle of hit points; This may be viable against non veterans unfortified outside of cities, but otherwise, will often prove to be a resource drain. Also, If Carthage gets a handle on the swarm, the same fate as the Zulus’ awaits, though the religious attribute may allow a little bit more graceful decay.

Ottomans

The Ottomans run the same game as the Persians, but with a much higher risk and a much higher payoff. Without the Immortals to defend lands and cities, they are unlikely to ever get Sipahi. But if they can somehow hold out and get Sipahi......Revenge is sweet!

America

America runs just like the Ottomans, except they may be able to leverage the layout, resources, and huts of the land.

Egypt

Egypt can be a good tamer if the game will be decided by score after a time limit. Cleopatra's industrial speed, cheap temples can be built in the blink of an eye and add up to 12 additional squares to your city border. Additionally, they make it easy to keep people happy, both points that make for a high score. Egypt can time its golden age with a chariot or with a single wonder (Pyramids) which will also help grow people to raise the score. They will not struggle with that government switch, and may even be able to flip some of Carthage's border cities to their side, or reclaim conquered cities by culture. Industry will neutralize some of Carthage's advantages, but there is still the issue of stopping pillagers. Maybe, the Babs could even attempt this score victory.

Celts

Celts could try to rely on their Gallic Swordsmen's ability to attack and retreat, but this still depends on iron and is a very expensive loss. Their swordsmen may also be able to ambush pillagers more easily and try to sneak past the front lines to pillage/block reinforcements, but it is still an expensive (50 shield) loss. The 2 movement may be useful in quickly sending reinforcements from other cities. Their abilities will either give them a chance or make them one of the worst choices possible, and I have not yet made been able to make that conclusion.

Iroquois

The mounted warriors can try the same strategy as the Gallic Swordsmen, attacking and hoping for retreats, but now cost the same (30 shields) as the Numidians. This should be done in defense of cities in similar fashion to the Persians. Like America, they may be able to leverage the layout, resources, and huts of the land with their scouts. There is also the Iroquois insurance policy of being able to derive a 3 attack from either horses or iron, both of which their scouts will likely find early. The quick transition to monarchy and cheap temples will also be a plus and may help with score. The Iroquois must remember to launch those spearman pillaging parties, or they will be buried under the industrious Carthaginian roads.

Greeks

Hoplites do not fear Numidans and welcome the num mercs 2 attack because with a 3 defense the hoplite will easily be able to help Carthage throw away 30 shields. The humble, focused hoplite can cause serious pillaging problems for the same reason (though agreed, they probably do dream at night about being able to attack the archers, warriors, and chariots that pass nearby, the way they see Numidians dispatch of them). Greeks must not fail to launch hoplite pillaging parties, or they will be buried by the same industrious Carthaginian roads as well.


Romans

3/3/1 Finally, a proud unit that can look down at, and spit on the Numidians :-) Hoplites may not fear Numidians, but Legionaries fight like Rocky in Rocky IV. They can taunt any overzealous Numidian and take all the punches, yet also unload with a top-notch punch of their own, and all for the same 30 shields. As a militaristic civ, barracks are so cheap that by the time Legionaries become available a 3-hit-point Legionary was probably only intended to confuse you. Now we can see that it was the 3/2 that must have gotten Hannibal all the way to Rome, but the 3/3 that must have finally sent him home.
Rome is ready for quick unit promotions as well. "Ooooo me! me!" you say? Well, beware! Once again, Achilles’ iron heel rears it ugly head. And without scouts, Rome and others may have to really work their way out of the dark to find iron. If you choose the gamble, don’t get so caught up with finding your iron that you forget the pillage with your spearmen, or you too can be buried by the Carthaginian industry with everyone else.


Japan
Probably not a good idea, though the thought of Samurai retaliating with pillaging vengeance is kind of enticing if militarism is enough to hold you through the ancient era.

Pillagers: Aztecs, Zulus, Greeks, Romans, ?Japanese?
Retreatables: Iroquois, Celts
Defenders: Persians, Greeks, Romans, ?Japanese?
Score-based: Egyptians, Iroquois, ?Babylonians?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, you've certainly done an exhaustive job of researching Carthage in PTW!

My question now is, with their incredible traits, why is it that when I play AS Carthage, I get routinely trounced by... the GREEKS? Why is it that a non-industrious, non-expanionist Civ always seems to out-expand me? These Greeks cause major problems. Do I have a lousy build order?

In other words, please tell me your Carthage strategy.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

And I must throw in one more "lion tamer" civ:

The CHINESE.

This Civ is not only a lion-tamer, is is "dog of war releaser". Sure, you don't want to take on the Carthaginians in the Ancient Era as the Chinese, but spend your time consolidating your empire, and if you happen to be near the Carthaginians, or pretty much anyone else for that matter, by the time you get Riders, set them free! The Numidians will put up a BIT of a fight, but the rider's awesome stats will nonetheless render Carthage inept in the end.

[Fried-Psitalon]

While I would agree with a few of the points made, I would respectfully disagree with some of what was posted about Carthage- speaking as someone who uses Carthage a great deal and also has fought against them (usually successfully.) Let me talk about the points one at a time.

Evaluation of Carthage as a Civ: I would agree generally with most of the remarks about the strengths of Carthage. The

1. Units are expensive. Relative to what? Other spearmen? Yes. Swordsmen? Same cost. Gallic Swordsmen are nearly double the cost of a Num Merc. As long as a player has the good sense to use his industrious workers appropriately, Num Merc costs aren't a major deal. Don't count on slow Num Merc production to save your bacon against them.

2. Unit Speed- yes, notable weakness. Unfortunately, few early-era Civs can claim speed; those that can have been noted correctly as "Carthage killers."

3. Anarchy- also true. But what of it? You're going to time your attack for when Carthage is in anarchy? You don't get advance warning, and unless your forces are already on the border, when you DO see Carthage in Anarchy, you won't get to them in time to capitalize on it.

4. Iron-searching- scientifics will research it faster, expansionists might find where it could be faster, but won't *research* it any faster unless goody-hut-luck is involved. (NEVER rely on luck.) Again, so what? I've won many games without ever researching Iron. A num merc's 2/3/1 stats mean: "Okay, I may have 2 attack instead of 3, but you aren't gonna retaliate. Shoo, fly." The only reason I go up the top of the ancient era tech lines is to get my hands on the Great Wall, the thing that makes Carthage immortal.

5. Improvement pillaging - absolutely. Carthage is vulnerable to this, if done *exactly right.* Otherwise, a smart Carthage player will meet you on the road you're about to pillage, spear in hand. An Impi has even odds in that environment; a Jag is likely to lose.

6. Early Rush- I emphatically, STRONGLY disagree with this point. Any Carthage player worth his/her salt goes immediately for Bronze working, and might even start working on something that takes some time to "insta-switch" to a Num Merc right off the bat. Yes, that means I can and will accept 1 Num Merc on turn 8 to go exploring with, rather than 2 warriors. Many times, it allows me a lovely surprise when I run into my neighbors.

7. Research- A scientific civ has *no* advantages in the Ancient Era, except in building libraries. Yes, if you can survive until the Middle Ages, cavalry are a threat- but by then, why is Carthage still using Num Mercs to defend with? Carthage is an ANCIENT war culture- if you survive to the Middle Ages, you've accomplished your goal. Carthage is betting on early initial poundings to get a strong enough lead to win out in the end. (Or at least the way I play them- Swissy uses a method that would be more vulnerable to what Sperricles is proposing.)

8. Golden Age- partially agree, partially disagree. True, a premature GA isn't ideal. It means my settlers move out sooner, and my early research is *somewhat* helped. Remember, Carthage is trying to get ahead sooner and use their lead to stay ahead. A GA with 4 cities is still a GA you won't get if you're not playing an Ancient Culture. And if your exploring warrior dies to my Num Merc, a lot of other factors just kicked in....like potentially me knowing where to look for YOU, and you not having that explorer to check into where to look for ME.

9. Improvements- Temples take Carthage awhile, definitely. That's a pain. In many games, I don't build them except in my main cities- why should I? My border towns have enough Num Mercs to keep the people in line. Culture flips? Pshaw. Libraries....working towards CAVALRY? PSHAW! Barracks, a valid point has been made. Walls? What do those cost again? 20, 30 shields? That's what "beating the people" is for.

Now let's move on to strategies against the Carthaginian machine. Before I continue, though, I would like to share a lesson my grandfather taught me about the game of Chess, when I was very young: "Always expect your opponent to see exactly what you are going to do, and plan for the worst possible response you can."

To attack or not to attack? My answer is a resounding YES! Carthage is a comm/ind, a combination which FLOURISHES when left alone. The Num Merc is a unit which is designed to get you to LEAVE Carthage alone. Leaving Carthage alone is signing your death certificate!

Sun Tzu once said that if you cannot attack the heart, you must harass the limbs...or something similar. Carthage's limbs are its workers and its terrain improvements. Even if all you have are warriors (build horsemen) get something into Carthage's face as early as possible! Hannibal-player must decide between forcing himself into a premature GA or letting you run rampant. Don't go for the cities- remember, Carthage needs to grow; Carthage's power is in growing through expansion - and that requires improvements!

By all means, expand to keep up with Carthage- but that's a truism for most cultures. It's not called the REX phase for nothing. Beware of Carthaginian pillagers trying to slow you down, though. Carthage can also devote some energy to Num merc production and still expand quickly- a smart player will keep a reserve ready; or at the very least, watchers posted along Carthage's line of advance.

A border with Carthage in the ancient era is a GUARENTEE of war if the player is intelligent. If there are other enemies, make yourself useful to the Carthage player- make them want to keep you around. Offer tech swapping, offer scouting information, anything to get Carthage's attention OFF YOU for the Ancient Era.

Sperricle's points are now up for examination. (Sperr, I admire you for being the one to attempt to challenge this cause. I hope you don't mind my frank examination of it. )

Point 1: Good and true all around except for one point: Don't let Carthage get TO your cities. Meet them in the open field (watch for rivers/hills,etc.) If you let Carthage get to your cities, a smart Hannibal WONT attack immediately. He'll fortify in the ugliest square he can find, and wait for friends. (Or, the truly cunning Hannibal will watch you marshall a defense there against his 5-6 Num Mercs....and hit you with 6 or 8 somewher else.) Meet Carthage on the plains! If you can, blockade Hannibal's men- force them to attack you on the plains to get by.

Point 2: Agreed. Get in there early. Don't be glad to see Num Mercs guarding improvements though. That just means he has an active reserve waiting for YOUR attack, sentinels for YOUR troops incoming, and you can bet the "Field Guard" will get battle orders when the army begins to move out.

Point 3: Agreed- with reservations. Catapults can wear down even the might Num Merc- but beware those catapults getting captured! Movement in Simulturn is finicky- and a smart Carthage will be looking for a chance to snipe your catapults; giving him a terrible advantage- great defense, and he can wear you down with YOUR own catapults, before launching his 2-attack!

Point 4: Agreed, but moot in Elim games. Query: Why are you wasting units outside the city pillaging your own improvements? Better to pack them all inside, enjoy the town's defensive bonus, and make Carthage pay for that city in blood. Remember: Num Mercs CAN attack, but it's not what they like to do. Give up nothing for free!

Point 5: Bah. Prayer is for religious Civs. By all means build roads, but have a plan for the days Iron isn't around. Make sure your frontier towns have roads first.

Point 6: Worthwhile, but that's playing the metagame. Know your opponent's methodology, and adjust for it. This is good advice for any Civ, at any time.

The Lion Tamer civs:

Perisa: This strategy might work, but while your Immortals are waiting in the towns for the Num Mercs to obligingly walk up, what do your fields and hills look like? Carthage will be able to tell you. Also, if you wait in a town, you let Carthage pick the square they are coming from. Say "Numidian Merc mounting the mountain" five times fast. Look! Over that RIVER, on that HILL! Num Mercs! Be careful waiting for them. Better to set out sentinels, and meet them in the field. Advice past the Ancient Era, again, is pointless. Perisa's best chance is field battles against Carthage early, in carefully picked terrain. Bad terrain actually gives Carthage a higher defense value than the Persian's attack!

Zulus

Possible THE number-one threat to Carthage. Definitely a potential "Carthage-killer." Evaluation is absolutely on the money, across the board. Just remember- Your impis aren't immortal, and if they aren't veterans, then they probably aren't retreating, either.

Aztecs

Eeeesh. Not sure I agree with this one. Don't count on luck. Num Merc roadways (and again, a smart player's sentinels) will stop the Aztecs from the surprise they need to pillage effectively. Remember: Jags have 1 defense, which means you are actually likely to lose if a Num Merc comes calling. The Aztec Bumrush, ever the terror of other Civs, is neutered against the Carthaginians. If you want to bumrush Carthage, take the Zulus, or go home.

Ottomans

"But if they can somehow hold out and get Sipahi......"

The phrase "Somehow hold out" is never a good sign. Persia without their Immortals has no hope against a determined, methodical Carthage rush. The Ottomans are the same. Remember: Carthage wants to get a big lead EARLY. They'll do it at YOUR expense.

America

America has almost as little chance against the Carthaginians as they do in a small map (which is usually what MP is) against the Aztecs or their Iroquois neighbors. Without ANY cultural unit possibilites, stompage is very likely to occur- whether or not the Americans can match industrial for industrial, expansionism's scouts can't measure against a Num Merc, unless you are fabulously luck with your huts. Possibility: use your scouts to watch for raiders.

Egypt

If you're playing a score game, then Egypt has a pretty good shot- if war is banned. Otherwise, things aren't so keen. Your war chariots have a better chance than most against the Num Mercs in large enough numbers, though, since they can retreat and support each other that way. Use your workers feverishly to deal with jungle and mountains, though, because Num Merc march solidly through all.

Celts

Here's a Civ with a good chance, provided you have some breathing room at the start- and iron. Without it, no industrious roads won't help you at all. Being able to run away when your attack against a Num Merc doesn't go well is a great way to conserve these murderously expensive units.

Iroquois

A lot like Celts, but with one significant caveat: Horseback Riding isn't on the way to anything else good. Iron Working is on the way to construction. Result: If the Iroquois go for an early fight against the Carthaginians (which they should) it could lead to tech-lag later, which might lead to missing out on the Great Wall or the Hanging Gardens- the first something Carthage MUST NOT get, and the second, important if score is a factor.

Greeks

I agree with Sperricle's evaluation, BUT: why not go straight for Iron Working? You can research it immediately, and therein lies your best hope. Send a hoplite to pillage, and a swordsman with him to greet the Num Merc in the field.

Rome

Sure, here is a culture with a cultural to spit on the Num Merc... as long as you have enough of them produced. Rome, the ponderous goliath, needs time - a lot of it- to get things rolling. Carthage doens't; so try and get some early breathing space. Build a lot of workers, as the slow-moving Legions will need assistance to meet the probably already-onrushing Num Mercs in the field.

Japan

If you can survive to the middle era. 'nuff said. Japan's ability to research horseback riding instantly might be worth investigating if you just have to try out this Civ against Carthage.

To conclude:

A lot of good ideas here, but a few of them need to be thought through more carefully. Your best shot at defeating Carthage lies with the Zulu, and then possibly Rome or the Aztecs. I hope Sperricles takes this rather brutal analysis in the beneficial light it was intended. He's got guts for a taking on the toughest job and displaying it for the world.

Later, I'll talk about how to make the most of Carthage, or "How to beat any Civ not ranked in the first two tiers (See my other thread on all the Civs in MP), 90 percent of the time."

::awaits Sperricle's reply::

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Wow, what difficulty level do you guys play on?

On regent (huge world, 16 civs, continents, 4 billion years, temperate), the Carthaginians seem to GET attacked.

Maybe I haven't played enough games featuring Carthaginians to really comment... they got nasty on me as Egypt in my current game, but it was too late, as they invaded me from across a continent and were easily beaten back TWICE... inducing the other civs to make war against them didn't necessarily teach them their lesson, but kept them in their place...

In other games, they seem to stagnate as the game progresses. I don't know, maybe my games are the exception to the rule, or maybe regent is not tough enough.

As for the COMMERCIAL trait though... it's supposed to dim corruption, but I have never seen it make squat difference in this regard. Am I mad?

[Fried-Psitalon]

Absolutely Carthage stagnates as it moves into later eras- they are an ancient era Civ, after all. The computer has poor skills on all difficulty levels- they merely produce faster on higher ones.

The environment Sperricles and I are talking about is primarily MP- although you could use some of our strategies AS Carthage in SP.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
Absolutely Carthage stagnates as it moves into later eras- they are an ancient era Civ, after all. The computer has poor skills on all difficulty levels- they merely produce faster on higher ones.

The environment Sperricles and I are talking about is primarily MP- although you could use some of our strategies AS Carthage in SP.

Ah, I see.

What I want to know is, why, on Regent level, do the Greeks seem to produce as quickly as Carthage? Ok, not exactly as quickly, but pretty damn close.

[Sperricles]

Carthage's expansion relies on leveraging their workers to quickly build roads between cities and more importantly, out into the expanse so the settlers can use the roads to get there fast. Expanse workers, usually in twos and defended by a num merc can lay a tile of road every turn. Their trick is roading out into the expanse to where they can allow a settler to get to the next city spot in 2 turns by road instead of 5-6 without. With the appropriate roads in place, the city can receive reinforcements with ease.

But, the smaller the map, the more difficult for Carthage's quick roads to make as much difference because in the early turns your target new city location is close to your capital and roads make less difference. The roads make the biggest difference in getting cities built that are far from your capital, and that implies a map size that is large enough to expand into.
Back to the electric stove analogy, it takes a little while for those roads to heat up the expansion.

Greeks are excellent pillagers and are smart for expanding as wild as their ability allows because of their equal defense and on a tiny map...hmm...where Carthage's roads are less useful for expansion but still open for pillaging. Greeks can do very well in this scenario which is one reason they are among the prime candidates for the lion tamer job in MP duels which are often on tiny maps.

Hope that helps some.

[Sperricles]

After your post, I have considered the Chinese and can agree that they at least merit a lesser "lion tamer" position somewhere above the Japanese and the Ottomans. I say lesser only because all 3 are really dependent on lasting to the middle ages. Of the 3, indeed China probably has the better chance of riding out the storm by relying on its industry and military traits (of which Japan and Ottomans each only have one component). Like the other 3, China would not be the choice for a 1 vs. 1 duel against Carthage.

I am also convinced that the veteran archer rush would probably not be effective against nums who outclass them on both attack and defense, especially if nums are fortified behind walls. The easy to get veteran archers could be used well for city defense like wannabe Immortals. Two veteran archers might be enough to handle a num inside China's land, (though you will probably lose the first one) which boils down to a reasonable 20 shield loss vs a 30 shield loss, but again the nums would have to be forced to meet the archers on terms where the archers are well defended (i.e. in cities ).

In a non duel, the quickly available veteran archers could also save China simply by eliminating a 3rd party and leaving their lands for expansion, but again that really depends on who your neighbors are, and it could eliminate a useful ally. (Then again an ally to whom? To you or to carthage)

If the above holds true and China gets to the middle ages, those riders will have 2 good options against Carthage. It seems to me their best strength would be to pillage with that 3 movement and 3 defense, and they can probably pillage even better than a Samurai. I could see the 4-attacking Riders taking a city from the Carthaginians if they moved in a speedy mass, suddenly showed up out of nowhere on the doorstep (using 3 movement) at the very end of the turn, and then immediately attacked at the start of the next turn.

But by the time China could deploy such a large, high cost force (70 shields), there is a good chance that the world and carthage will get to musketeers and then cavalry, too quickly for the Riders' effect to last long enough. China and Carthage are eqaul with industry, but Carthage has that commercial advantage of less corruption and 1 extra trade in larger cities, so by the time middle ages hit, it will likely be helping Carthage advance in technology a bit faster than China. The Riders' pillaging potential is wonderful though.

[Sperricles]

Just a thought on Ranking the lion tamers.

Prime Candidates
1. Zulus
2. Greeks
3. Aztecs

Iron Dependents
4. Romans
5. Persians

Retreatables
6. Iroquois
7. Celts

Middle-Age-hopefuls
8. Chinese
9. Japanese
. Ottomans

Score/Other
11. Egypt
12. Babylon
13. America

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I must say that on Regent mode I can generally keep China in the lead in terms of landmass and production by the time I get Chivalry, and that none of my rivals will be to gunpowder this time (of 15 rivals). Though Carthage would not be my first conquest choice, I'd say that after waiting to build 12 riders, I could begin picking off Carthaginian cities in the permiter, reinforcing them, and then moving on, until Carthage falls. The worst effect would be a lengthy war during which time I fell behind culturally or in terms of research, but on a huge world, the outcome would be virtually garunteed: victory for China over Carthage.

In terms of an ancient battle, I wouldn't take on Carthage with any of the aforementioned Civs. Maybe on a tiny, small, or regular map. But besides that, forget it: it's too much of a hassle when I should be focusing on the medival battles to come.

Then again, the farthest I've gotten on Monarch level (same world settings) has been as China, conquering persia and then falling to a (sob) Babylonian force...

So maybe I'm really missing out. I just don't fear the Carthaginians... but I do find their aggression level irritating, and their potential intriguing... though nowhere near the Ottomans or Chinese. I'd probably take them over the Persians, who never seem to get enough iron to conquer as they should.

[Sperricles]

If you play MP online against other civers, I think it will help to see, just how hard it is to get to the middle ages.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Sperricles
If you play MP online against other civers, I think it will help to see, just how hard it is to get to the middle ages.

Ay, there's the rub. I can't afford a high-speed modem to GET online to play MP, and then, it would be seriously bad for my mental health... though, doubtless, it would make me a better Civ player.

In an MP environment, I could see the Greeks being the best alternatives to Carthage. Maybe I should humbly excuse myself from this thread.

[Brizey]

So far MP is turning out to be too much like every other TBS game--see who can crank out units the fastest.

[Sperricles]

Friedrich heh heh I was expecting, and even counting on your reply, knowing how much you love the Carthaginians and how devastatingly well you wield them. And I respect greatly the insight and brutal criticism of many of my points. That's the whole purpose of this forum, and if the argument can't stand on its own legs it needs to be cut down and rebuilt to make a difference.

I can't beleive I left out the Great Wall....excellent point.

As far as cost I am comparing num mercs to spearmen for pillaging purposes

Thanks for the insight on Celts, I never play them, and had not been able to test it yet.

Anarchy is one of those lesser valued that was more of just an FYI


"a Jag is likely to lose" Agreed. But if your jags are planning on dealing with a Num merc you better send 3 of em at a time for the same cost, and he's not gonna stop all 3 with one merc.

Good point on the num merc explorer surprise. But as far as "Exploring warrior dying to num merc, and num merc reversing it?" I am still not completely convinced. First of all, that num merc will start exploring much later, and when he finds the warrior, he may or may not be able determine where the warrior came from, though he will have a rough idea. Also, if he kills the warrior, The other player will know he's out there exploring and can still prepare in plenty of time.

"FLOURISHES when left alone....Leaving Carthage alone is signing your death certificate!"
I agree absolutely, and want to clarify that although I recommended immortals and other units unbalanced on the attack side do most of the dirty work closer to home, I absolutely advocate sending good defenders to pillage .... just not the attackers as much, since your pillaging success is going to be much higher than attempts to take a city.

"Forify in the ugliest square he can" when coiming for your city. Also agreed, and needs to be adressed. Again the long battles are more likely to be won when attacking right out of your city center because of healing and defense, but fighting within your terrain is still the second most advantageous place to fight those num mercs. Indeed, don't let him walk right up to the city. But if he gets there, deal with him as stated earlier.

I await the next chopping

[Fried-Psitalon]

Churning out the most units wins? I would strongly disagree. It isn't about cranking out units the fastest at all- it's about using the units you do have in an effective manner. Have a good time cranking out your archer rush- if I have my city sitting on a hill, you'll have a lot of broken bows and broken backs in short order.

On the other hand, if you churn out 40 units and bumrush my cities, and I slide 5 in behind your army and pay your undefended capital a visit, I'd say that "churning out the most units" has earned you a fat lot of nothing.

Strategy will always triumph over numbers.

Especially ruthless strategy.

[Sperricles]

P.S. As I am new here, I haven't gotten the full hang of smilies and welcome any help with that.

[eloquence]

Once again people are giving the Babylonians a bad rap and I feel compelled to come to their defence as they actually are fairly effective at dealing with the Carthagians. At least as much as one can be.

The bowman as a 2/2 unit is not one that the Carthagians will want to actually attack if they can help it as they don't have any advantage in doing so. This is helpful when on offence when you are pillaging their land as you can force them to make attacks that are not to their advantage. Granted, attacking cities is not advised and a good player will defend their land with more mercs, but here they are more vulnerable and hopefully by forcing them on defense you're not suffering back home.

If Carthage is attacking you, the bowmen on defense are still as strong as your spears are and are fairly effective. Also that same bowman can go on the offensive and help pick off damaged mercs and give you a decent shot at taking it down. Catapults also are very effective here on defence, if you can take the merc down a point or two then it will give a bowman a fighting chance at winning.

I admit that it's not a great situation to be in but still I think that it is more tenable than many of the other civs that you could be playing.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ah yes, the Bowman can be a mighty unit indeed, but after you produce enough of them to bring your neighbors down, don't you find yourself lagging quite a bit in the war for culture?

[eloquence]

No as the Babylonians I've got the best culture potential of all the Civs since I get cheap temples and libraries.

Also in a multiplayer environment culture really doesn't play a factor at all.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by eloquence
No as the Babylonians I've got the best culture potential of all the Civs since I get cheap temples and libraries.

Also in a multiplayer environment culture really doesn't play a factor at all.

Well, MP aside, I still find myself out-researched and out-cultured everytime I play as the Babs on a huge world. I dunno. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

[Sperricles]

Eloquence, thankyou for the great point about the Babs.
I have revised my rankings to try and account for them

1. Zulus
1. Romans*
3. Greeks
4. Persians*
5. Babs
5. Iroquois
7. Aztecs
8. Celts*
9. Chinese
10. Japanese
11. Ottomans
12. Egypt
13. America


I place Babs equal with Iroquois because of ability to defend the homefront (as you mentioned with catapult aid) It's very nice and appropriate to have those spearmen able to double as archers in the places you mentioned, good use of shields.

I place them under the Persians though since (only if iron can be found) the Immortals will pick off units even easier. Leveling the field to exclude iron, you will notice that the Babs fall in the top 3.

[Ghengis-Sean]

Carthage is a good unit bu the num has one major weakness, it's expensive. Early on Carthage can't build the num, so that's the best time to hit it.

In a multiplay enviornment, on a tiny/small map the Aztecs are the way to go. However any militant civ is just as good. Even after Carthage gets bronze working the choice is going to be num's or settler, they cost the same and Carthage can't build both at once. the very cost of their special unit is going to slow down Carthage's initial growth.

So even if you can't break into their cities, just by threatening them you force Carthage to not only build a nums to defend their cities, but to defend their settlers and their improvements. That's alot of production expended that could have been spent on city improvements or settlers. So the best way to go is just go over and start harrassing Carthage from the get go, and start by hitting workers. Industrious is pretty usless if you have no workers

[Fried-Psitalon]

By the same token, Carthage can do the same to you, however. (Side bar: Why does everyone say Carthage's unit is expensive? It costs the same as a vanilla swordsmen. It's a UU- an archer and a hoplite in one; bargain price if you ask me.)

If a spearman marches into your territory, you dispatch an archer or maybe two warriors and chase it off. If a Num Merc enters your territory, you've got to dispatch a fairly significant force- at least two archers (40 shields) or if the Hannibal is smart and heads for rivers and high ground when you march out to meet him, three, maybe FOUR archers - (60/80 shields).... two or three Num Mercs working in concert can nearly paralyze an opposing Civ's expansion, not so much with what they can do, but because of the effort needed to expel them.

A smart Carthage player, on the other hand, uses their road network to keep forward cities covered by rear-city garrisons, and slips forward city-garrisons down the roads to meet your marauders.....

That, my friends, is the reason that only the Zulu can reliably harass Carthage; their units stand a decent chance of winning against a Num Merc attack- Jags do not. The Zulus on a tiny map are mostly unbeatable anyway, though, since they can begin harass tactics immediately.

[Sperricles]

Ghengis-Sean, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to side with Friedrich on this one - You have greatly exaggerated the cost!

The cost question is not a matter of settler or no settler. If you are Carthage or anyone, you are gonna have to build something to protect your cities, and lets face it, when push comes to shove, if Carthage is not safe building warriors, then your probably not safe building them either. The result is that you end up building spearmen, and they build a numidian mercenary for a net difference of 30 - 20 = 10 shields. Divide by two if production is doubled and the 5 shield difference seems even less formidable.

Is 5-10 shields more expensive? Yes and No. It depends on what you compare. If you compare to a spearmen, you could say its expensive. If you compare to an archer, you might say its expensive. If you compare to a spearman AND an archer at the same time you are down 5-10 shields yourself. And how do you measure the price of a 3 defense that virtually none else even have the possibility of duplicating? Priceless.

The fact is that the numidians versatility on offense or defense is what makes it cheap. The bonus is that the difficulty to kill also makes them cheap, because fewer units will need to be replaced.

So unless you are the Greeks, the Babs, or have Zulu Impi movement and defense, the cost difference will be overcome and reversed on you quite easily.

Turning attention to Friedrich now. Zulu argument makes sense. I will also concede, Aztecs even outnumbering you 3:1 will lose 1 unit per merc, and will be less effective if the game continues and the swarm is more easily responded to. I think there is a breakpoint depending on how soon they find you and how close they are, that really determines Aztec swarm success. But depending on pure luck placement is not safe. One last question? Zulu, Zulu.....ok......but based on the same argument you gave above why do we hear so little from you about the greek hoplite as a harrassment response to Carthage?

[Ghengis-Sean]

To address the comment that Nums aren't expensive;

Early on in the game nums are very expensive, you start with one city, it will take you around 10-15 turns to crank out one num. More importantly though Carthage can't start making nums unitl it gets bronze working.

If you're on a small/tiny continent any militaristic civ can come over and pound on you at will with their measely archers. A good trick for china is to sick their workers on nearby trees to crank out bowmen extra quick for a quick grab against their neighbors (or Carthage)

The aztecs have perhaps the best viable first strike, but other civs aremd with only the simple warrior can bang away. Even after Carthage gets nums a smart player will simply dump warriors on Carthagenian territory. A fortified warrior on a hill stands a good chance of killing the vaunted num, remember its only a 2/3, and early on an expensive one. Early harrasment against carthage is the best way of keeping carthage from becoming a menace. kill his workers, destroy his mines and go after his settlers. Eventually carthage will get bronze working, but much later than if he is allowed to pursue it unimpeded.

so essentially hit him early and hit him hard. The aztecs are good for this, but so is germany which can build archers AND spearmen from the word go. Carthage is epecially vulnerible early on, so thats the optimimum time to clip his wings.

[Sperricles]

we all know how easy it is to say build a settler, while bronze is researched, and then switch to numidian right when you get it. The timing is not that tough. For your 20 shield archer to get there, he better do it in 3 turns or he will meet a numidian. Any decent Carthage players can have his first numidian up within 8 turns. You better be praying for a tiny map to get your archers there that fast. The argument just holds no weight.

[Dominae]

Sperricles and others, very nice discussion on an often overlooked civ (at least in SP). I'll chime in on a few points:

1. Game settings

A lot of the disagreements above are rooted in the various game settings that people usually play, specifically world size and difficulty.

For Tiny maps clearly the Aztecs are a formidable foe early on, while on Small maps their power decreases greatly with respect to rushes (they're still great scouts). Similarly, the early pillaging power of the Numidian is greatly diminished the larger the map. As a general rule, the larger the map, the worse early pillagers are (Greeks, especially) and the better the Expansionist trait is.

Also, researching BW in 8 turns is simply not possible on the higher difficulties, even on a River start. Cranking out UUs as quickly as possible also not recommended when you usually need a Warrior or two to do MP duty.

2. Numidian Merc. cost

I agree that the Merc is best compared to Swordsmen, and thus are a bargain. But the extra ten Shields is quite significant. A nice city-site with 3 Bonus Grassland tiles (all mined) produces 7 Shields per turn when a size 3. Assuming this city does nothing more than produce Mercs, it can get one out every 5 turns (with waste, but this can be dealt with). Producing Spearmen in the same situation yields a unit every 3 turns. Thus, there are two options that render the Merc cost-effective: 1) use them offensively, or 2) produce only a few, hoping they act as an deterrent to enemies eyeing your empire. The point being that there is a place for Warriors when playing the Carthaginians, since the Mercs cost too much not to be used to their maximum potential.

3. Late-game potential

I must disagree with the claim that Carthage is an early-game civ. Yes, the Merc is an important unit (to say the least), but the Industrious/Commercial combo is (IMO) the builder duo of choice. Going into the Medieval age, the Carthaginians on average should have the largest, most productive empire. This is especially true on maps larger than Tiny, where Carthage may not be involved in early fighting at all. In this case the Commercial trait really kicks in, allowing more cities to contribute fully.


Dominae