Scenario Design Contest #5 - Page 4

jim panse · January 27, 2003, 13:30

for i´m nearly finished with my sewastopol scenario i would prefer either a great battles of the world or a great battles ww2 theme.

but most interesting sounds the great battles of ww1 to em ...

Jimmywax · January 27, 2003, 13:38

I think the fact that you are almost finished disqualifies you. I think you have to start from scratch once the parameters are established, or am I wrong?

jim panse · January 27, 2003, 14:16

you´re right. i feel ashamed. let´s do some ww1 great battles

Jimmywax · January 27, 2003, 18:40

NO NO NO, Alternate History! I mean come on, really people! Ohhh! I feel so alone...

Ah screw it, I probably wouldn't fininsh it anyways.

Boco · January 27, 2003, 22:12

Yeah, WWI sounds great (says Boco who's trying to hide the fact that he's been toying with a WWI campaign for 8 months)! A battle can cover three years and a thousand square miles, can't it?

Quote:

Ah screw it, I probably wouldn't fininsh it anyways.

I wonder what the ratio of unfinished to finished scenarios ratio is? My disk is littered with unfinished debris. Techumseh's pretty prolific, but even he mentions having half a dozen unfinished ones.

JW, does your alt history idea fit into any of the times or places mentioned to date?

It'd be great if WV or some wise soul (even Canadian) would start a new contest poll with viable options from this thread. If I had any experience and/or sense, I'd do it myself.

Case · January 27, 2003, 22:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
A battle can cover three years and a thousand square miles, can't it?

I vote that it can

(*pulls cloth over own half completed 'battle' scenario covering the North Atlantic convoy routes*

)

Jimmywax · January 28, 2003, 03:03

Actually I was thinking of doing something loosely based on the S.M.Stirling book "The Peshawar Lancers". I really enjoyed the book and have read another short story of his set in the same universe that shed a little more light on his vision.

P.S. I guess it might fit into one of the other categories too. It would be mostly set in Asia, but I think WV is right and that the entries would be too spread out for him to research.

jim panse · January 28, 2003, 04:06

i would prefer this one:

Quote:

how about providing a map and letting people do whatever they want with it?

(kobayashi).

this is a great idea and would provide much fun?!

techumseh · January 28, 2003, 04:15

This discussion is clearly headed nowhere. If people are serious about a CONTEST, then some rules are going to be needed. The idea that anybody can submit anything is nice, but it's not a real contest.

To my mind, a fair contest requires a level playing field. That means everyone starts from scratch, the theme is tight enough that comparison is meaningful, rules are spelled out in advance and are followed, and that judging is free from bias or the appearance of bias.

To accomplish this, an untried theme is best, so it's unlikely that someone has something half finished on their hard drive ready to submit. Rules need to be followed, unlike the last contest where two of the entries violated the contest rules, and should have been disqualified.

The timelines originally established should be followed, within reason. If someone needs and extra week, that's one thing, but time frames shouldn't repeatedly be extended.

If people want objective judging, then anonimity MUST be assured. In the last contest, I withdrew from participating in the judging when the identity of contestants was revealed to me. Those who think it doesn't matter are just kidding themselves.

Perhaps those who want a WWII scenario could suggest a theme that will be specific and new, if not unique. If there is such a suggestion, then maybe we could test the community on whether they want WWII or an Asian/industrial or some other theme.

Michael Daumen · January 28, 2003, 09:37

Here are some ground rules for a potential scenario contest involving alternate history.

1. The designer shall provide a short description of the departure point from Earth's history. Anything from the specific - "Union troops fail to discover Confederate plans prior to the battle of Anteitam" - to the general - "the Axis wins the Second World War" - to the far out - "Plato never wrote the Republic." The designer does not have to defend his choice of departure point or provide a logical/scientific basis for one. An unlikely or implausible departure point shall not affect the scenario's final score.

2. The designer shall state the length of time elapsed between the departure point and the start of the scenario, if any. For example, a scenario set in 2003 after the invasion of Japan by the Allies has a elapsed time of 58 years. A scenario about Lopez' invasion of Cuba in the 1850's after a more-harshly-worded Ostend Manifesto has an elapsed time of "immediate." All scenarios shall not start later than 2003 (alternate future?). Designers may wish to expound on the changes that have arisen during the elapsed time, but this is not required (NB: it is NEVER necessary to explain the presence of dirigibles in ANY alternate history; their existence is assumed).

3. The designer is free to use any map depicting a portion or all of the Earth. Changes to allow for the effects of the departure point - terrain representing asteroid-devastated areas, a map of Pangaea for a time-travel accident, Central America with a Nicaraguan canal - are all permissible. The designer shall include a base (unchanged) map in the zip file.

4. Unusual technology is permitted as a departure point for a scenario. A Roman empire with gunpowder, Ming Dynasty alchemy, and Merlin as the leader of the Britons are all acceptable.

5. All civilizations meant for play must represented by a human nation. No alien invasion scenarios will be considered. Natural forces (dinosaurs, hurricanes, et al.) can be simulated by the use of not-for-play nations.

6. Solo play, PBEM, alternate starts, bat files are all permissible [?]

7. FW vs MGE [?]

Finally, such a contest could use someone uninvolved (ie not designing or judging) who can relay specific questions entrants have to the judges, making sure that their ideas are OK before too much time is spent. If not, I would err on the side of including any wierd idea the Civ2 community comes up with.

Michael Daumen · January 28, 2003, 09:49

Jimmywax,

What's the name of the short story?

Henrik · January 28, 2003, 12:02

I think those are a great set of contest rules

Boco · January 28, 2003, 13:25

Uh...Tech, I think the Apples and Spaceships / Level playing field is a distinct minority here. Granicus to Bulge was too restrictive by about 65 million years!

Let the majority rule...sigh! I'll wait for something other than a freeforall. JW's 'probably never finish it' quote holds for me, too.

Jimmywax · January 28, 2003, 13:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Daumen
Jimmywax,

What's the name of the short story?

The title of the short story is the "Shikari in Galveston" from the book Worlds That Weren't. It has stories by Turtledove, Stirling, Mary Gentle, and Walter Jon Williams.

Michael Daumen · January 28, 2003, 14:03

I only mentioned Pangaea to show an extreme example of a permissible map, that's all. Make a requirement that all scenarios must involve humans, and not aliens, dinosaurs, or anthropomorphic beings - or require a minimum starting date. Personally, I would expect most scenarios to fall within the Granicus to Bulge bloc anyway. I just wouldn't want to discourage any potential entrant.

Boco · January 28, 2003, 21:22

Yeah, the 65 million years was a cheap shot.

There are two conflicting positions on the thread: keep the criteria wide open to attract a crowd of entrants, and keep them narrow to allow a level playing field for the judges. I can see not only is the latter a minority position, but that several people whom I respect are pushing for minimal rules. I disagree, but hopefully time will prove me wrong -- we'll get lots of scenarios, and fair judging will be possible.

Now, what say we nominate St. Leo to set up a poll with the various options we've discussed?

Michael Daumen · January 28, 2003, 21:28

Second.

Should we tell him he's nominated?

techumseh · January 29, 2003, 02:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
Uh...Tech, I think the Apples and Spaceships / Level playing field is a distinct minority here.

Well, looking back over the thread, I don't see why you would say that. There really is no concensus at all.

Frankly, if people are going to finish the scenarios they've already half done, we don't need a contest. Just finish the damn things and submit them!

ravagon · January 29, 2003, 04:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco

There are two conflicting positions on the thread: keep the criteria wide open to attract a crowd of entrants, and keep them narrow to allow a level playing field for the judges. I can see not only is the latter a minority position, but that several people whom I respect are pushing for minimal rules. I disagree, but hopefully time will prove me wrong -- we'll get lots of scenarios, and fair judging will be possible.

Now, what say we nominate St. Leo to set up a poll with the various options we've discussed?

Re: The level playing field - Wouldn't this only be the case iff said contest is restricted strictly to historically accurate scenarios? A wide open field should give the judge wider discretionary powers too.
[I am taking the POV that this is a good thing of course, btw.

]

Might it also be desirable to go back to a judge panel?
That way any bias is much more tempered.

Michael Daumen · January 29, 2003, 07:56

Tech, my daughter insists on attending the Hurricanes - Maple Leafs game tonight so she can sing the Canadian anthem.

Should the last contest winner decide the parameters for the next contest?

Boco · January 29, 2003, 10:05

In one regard you are right, Tech. Not many posts seriously (I think?) advocate submitting scenarios started months ago. As for designer anonymity, I can't tell.

However, I was referring to the many posts shooting down the idea of narrowing the contest to a single geographic area (such as Africa) and timeframe (e.g. Colonial period) to make life easier for the judges. Personally, I'd think for a given era and area, alternate and real history could easily mix (e.g. Turtledove history and WWI). Most posters think that given judging criteria about playability, 'accuracy', art, and thoroughness, "apples" and "spaceships" can be compared. I think that asks judge(s) to show a whole lotta objectivity that is difficult to maintain.

I also have serious doubts as to whether a 1 on 1 duel could be fairly compared to a SP scenario, but you and others have more experience about that.

I'd vote for a panel as well.

Btw, how many entrants were there in the SDC about Africa?

Michael Daumen · January 29, 2003, 12:49

Ah you young whippersnappers. I think there were 4 or maybe 5 (it was March 1999 btw).

Michael Daumen · January 29, 2003, 13:01

Maybe if the community knew what the winning criteria were for consideration, it would be easier to narrow down some guidelines. Is there a premium on new artwork, or should a score be awarded based on how the whole is presented? Will attention to historical detail be rewarded, and how to tell (without avoiding rants like Prometeus')? Are there certain required files or formats for certain files that can be compared?

Or is everyone just gonna vote?

techumseh · January 29, 2003, 13:03

I really have no objection to an alternate history theme, or any other for that matter. What I don't like are the attempts to broaden the theme so that scenarios which are obviously already half done will qualify.

BTW, Boco, I think there were 6 entries to SDC#1 which had a colonial Africa theme.

Mercator · January 29, 2003, 13:34

I don't think anyone wants to see half-finished scenarios participate, but just some more freedom on the author's part, which will hopefully mean more entries.

I think, now, most designers never bother participating or quit in the process, because the strict theme just isn't their thing (not to spend as much time on as you'd need to do to get a historicall accurate setting anyway, playing it is another thing).

There has never been a lack of enthusiasm, but let's face it, 3 or 4 entries is hardly a contest (no offense).

And with 1 or 2 judges the subjectivity claim (regarding participants' anonymity) barely holds, because the whole thing will probably be biased towards their own personal tastes anyway. So a panel, or organised open "people's vote" would be much better, IMHO, in which case the anonymity isn't necessary either (as long as the voting is regulated enough to prevent everyone playing Mr. Cool Dude's scenario, and no-one playing Mr. Newbie's scenario).

Michael Daumen · January 29, 2003, 14:33

I agree with everything Mercator sez. If there are several categories for the community to rank (Art, Playability, whatever) there could be a winner for each category in addition to first prize.

Do half finished scenarios really have an advantage? Could that lead to better overall entries? Alternatively, wouldn't it be easy to tell if someone entered something they have talked about on these boards?

mordhiem · January 29, 2003, 14:48

Of course, no already paritially completed scenario's should be entered. I also agree that we should use a wide theme in order to encourage more enteries. I am not sure on the consensus over getting rid of codenames etc. but I believe that they are pretty much superflous. Also, if we get rid of codenames the less experienced entrants (like me

) can get help from the people at these boards, as long as they understand that any info can be stolen, but that is the risk you take. I think that the competitor's for a vote on a theme are currently:

Alternate History (Any Time Period)
1 on 1 PBEM Duel (Any Time Period)
Battles of the World Wars
Southern Asia (Ancient-Industrial)

techumseh · January 29, 2003, 18:15

Well, I've got half finished scenarios that fit each one of those categories. Maybe this contest is all I need to finish one or two.

Jimmywax · January 29, 2003, 18:40

OT

Tech, what do you have thats half done and fits in the AH category. If you don't mind me asking?

ravagon · January 29, 2003, 19:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
And with 1 or 2 judges the subjectivity claim (regarding participants' anonymity) barely holds, because the whole thing will probably be biased towards their own personal tastes anyway. So a panel, or organised open "people's vote" would be much better, IMHO, in which case the anonymity isn't necessary either (as long as the voting is regulated enough to prevent everyone playing Mr. Cool Dude's scenario, and no-one playing Mr. Newbie's scenario).

Multiple judges will also take some of the pressure off, as a single individual could be rather hard-pressed to come up with the research required for the accuracy of a multitude of history-based scenarios (Historical accuracy being, IMO, a rather flawed judging criterion anyway). Such would involve, of course, much longer delays in coming to a conclusion...

Q: Would the AH category being bandied about lately include "sci-fi" AH (a la Turtledove's Worldwar series - an idea I've been playing with for a while)?