PUBLIC HEARING Case 006: Validity of the President's name the capital poll

mapfi · January 18, 2003, 16:59

The question has been raised if the President's name the capital poll complies with the constitution.

This hearing will last 3 days until January 21st, 9pm GMT, please discuss.

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Pedrunn started an official poll entitled: "OFFICIAL: Choose the city name (final)"

The first post of this post contains the following lines:

From hour constitution the first post has to contain the followling information:

The question was what should be the name of our capital as expressed in the title. The title implies that the poll is a poll for decission making. So nothing wrong with that even it is not explicitly mentioned.

But it doesn't contain a clear and unbiased explanation why he exactly selected the two given city names for the run of poll.

According to his post he based his decission on "[t]he two most voted city names", ok it was clear that he meant the two city names voted in the unofficial poll:
Poll: Name of our capital
But actual he should have mentioned it. But that is not the problem the real problem is that his explanation is not clear and unbiased. Actual it is wrong.

Here are the top city names voted for in the said unofficial poll:

Code:

1. El Dorado................154 (6)
2. Gondolin.................134 (5)
3. Valhalla.................124 (5)
4. Paititi..................120 (4)
5. Xanadu...................119 (5)
6. Lemur City...............100 (4)

Lemur City is number 6 on this list and not number 2. The aim of the said unofficial poll was to gather information. That could have been information on how we call our first city, then the name would have been El Dorado without any further disscussion or a run off poll, between a certain number of the first top city names. The number of the first top city names could have been 2, 6 or whatever, that depends on the choice of the creator of the runoff poll, but not taking number 1 and number 6.

The argument Pedrunn used to use Lemur City as an option was that a lot of citiziens voted for names with the Lemur reference, but this argument is invalid. The rhules of the said unofficial poll was that every citiziens has 120 points that he could allocate to the cities on the list given in that poll. So a citizien was able to allocate all his points like this:

Lemurtown 30
Lemurcak 30
Lemurkakton 30
Lemur City 30

So just another citicien has to do the same thing all the Lemur options had 240 points together. So the conclusion is that:

Lemurtown != Lemurcak
Lemurcak != Lemurkakton
Lemur City != Lemurtown

And so on. Note for nonslicers != means unequal.

So the only explanation one could has why Pedrunn choosed Lemur City for the runoff poll is that he neither likes El Dorado nor Gondolin. And it was also clear as Pedrunn posted the poll that there were many people who don't like El Dorado and would vote for something different see the last comments of the Poll: Name of our capital thread. However the result is according to Article IV Section 2a) of The Constitution of Lemuria a biased poll in favour of Lemur City.

As the poll is biased it is null and void and must be declared invalid, in addition we need a new poll about the name of our capital, of course a unbiased one that must contain at least the first two top voted city names in the Poll: Name of our capital poll started by Locutus. As the aim of this poll was to gather further information the creator of the unbiased poll is free to put more city names on the option list as long as these city names are the n top voted city names in the Poll: Name of our capital poll.

-Martin

Locutus · January 18, 2003, 18:24

The Constitution gives the President full control over the naming of cities. The way I interpret it, he can do with the names whatever he wants. He can call it 'U R all gay tw*ts' and there's nothing we could do about it...

Therefore, he's IMHO not in violation of anything.

Edit: when was tw*ts sensored? It sure wasn't in the Hardman's days...

J Bytheway · January 18, 2003, 18:27

He can call the city whatever he wants, but he can't post official polls however he wants. Whether this poll violated the polling rules I'm not sure...

Frozzy · January 18, 2003, 18:28

YAWN...

In agreement with Locutus...

Locutus · January 18, 2003, 18:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
there's nothing we could do about it...

That is, except for elect another President in another term and have him change it of course (before he gets any ideas

)...

Martin Gühmann · January 18, 2003, 18:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
The Constitution gives the President full control over the naming of cities. The way I interpret it, he can do with the names whatever he wants. He can call it 'U R all gay tw*ts' and there's nothing we could do about it...

So he can do with the names he wants. But then explain me why he made a poll and did not name the city just like he wants.

Well if I understand you correctly then it wouldn't be any problem if he gave a reason for his choice of poll options his persional preference. But that wasn't his reason his reason was that Lemur City was under the top two city names and that is false it was under the top 6 city names.

-Martin

mapfi · January 18, 2003, 19:13

The constitution does require the president to have the name evaluated:
article II, 2-I
(e) The President is in charge of naming all new cities of the empire regardless of how the cities were created or assimilated. A name has to be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II) before a city is named.

Dale · January 18, 2003, 19:16

While Pedrunn may've acted un-honourable about the name of the capital city, he is in no way bound by our votes under the con. He's free to do what he wants.

Like Loc said, he could've named it anything he wants, even if it's not liked by the public.

Locutus · January 18, 2003, 19:17

it doesn't say what choices should be offered. He could give us a choice between 'U R all gay tw*ts' and 'Locutus is a m0r0n' and it would still be within the limits of the law... He could keep polling for silly names until we accept one, and in the meantime he could use whatever name he wants...

mapfi · January 18, 2003, 19:50

I think we should use invented names and not phrases that state actual facts...

I only wanted to point out that Pedrunn was required to poll this issue in a official poll - that has to go along with all the rules regarding official polling and that if he doesn't follow the poll's outcome has to explain himself

Locutus · January 18, 2003, 19:56

He's doing that isn't he? What choices he gives in the official poll is not determined by the Constitution and the 'Song festival' poll I organized wasn't by any stretch of the definition official so that can't be regarded as basis for the official one...

mapfi · January 18, 2003, 19:59

Actually you got a good point there. What about bias? If he puts his favorite name against one that is not liked by many, is that not biased?

Locutus · January 18, 2003, 20:03

Yes it is, but that's why he's the prez

If we don't like that, we should lay out a clear procedure for naming cities in the Constitution, but I don't think that's needed...

centrifuge · January 18, 2003, 23:10

So, it's possible for a city to change names anytime that the president decides to do so... hmmm... What would you guys think if, just for example, London was renamed everytime that a new Prime Miniister came into office. This is just a game, but I think there needs to be a majority poll on the names of cities, where the names put in the poll are chosen from the most favored citizens nomination. If we're going to call this a democracy game, then all aspects should be democratic. The constitution needs to be ammended...

H Tower · January 19, 2003, 02:26

Quote:

Originally posted by mapfi

I think we should use invented names and not phrases that state actual facts...

It appears the Senior Justice doesn't think highly of the forum moderator or his fellow citizens. I for one, am NOT a gay tw@t

mapfi · January 19, 2003, 07:50

You know - there's this slight possibilty that I was kidding - but I wouldn't count on it...

Zaphod Beeblebrox · January 19, 2003, 09:39

i want a run-off-poll between "U R all gay twíts" and "Locutus is a m0r0n"

Oerdin · January 19, 2003, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
The Constitution gives the President full control over the naming of cities.

Does that mean new Presidents can rename old cities and the citizens can't do anything about it? If so then I'm going to rename every city after me when I become President.

Oerdin · January 19, 2003, 11:58

In MP games you never want to let the other players know which city is your capital so I used to always rename my cities after myself. There was Oerdinville, Oerdintown, Oerdin City, Oerdin's Paradise, Oerdin's Hide Away, etc...

Immortal Wombat · January 19, 2003, 14:32

you know HARDMAN originally spelled out both "you" and "are" in his notable catchphrase. Pity AnnC pulled the link down really.

child of Thor · January 19, 2003, 19:36

Nameing cities is one of the few powers the president gets. I like to think it was a nice gesture from the High Lemur to his people, as this was our first city, in letting the citizens have some say in it. So things are good as far as i'm concerned.
By the way if he wanted to call it 'Locutus is a m0r0n' , i personally wouldn't have a problem with that, but i know someone who might

If on the other hand he wanted to name it 'CoT suks c**k' , then i would have a problem with it and not vote for him next time.........u see how it works? nice and easy really

I should add that i wouldn't approve of a president having a cheap shot at anyone though, we've got the austrians to worry about!

Pedrunn · January 19, 2003, 21:15

I am in a rush but i really need to say something.

I can name this city by any name i want. If someone does not like the name at all make a Resolution Poll!!!!

Pedrunn · January 20, 2003, 00:47

Actually in short what i wrote in the above post is all!

Zaphod Beeblebrox · January 20, 2003, 09:04

a revolution poll?

Immortal Wombat · January 20, 2003, 09:33

A Revolution Resolution

mapfi · January 20, 2003, 09:38

absolutely revolting...

Pedrunn · January 20, 2003, 09:41

me and my big mouth!

Martin Gühmann · January 20, 2003, 14:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Pedrunn
I can name this city by any name i want.

Yes that is your right. So finally I have to accept the name you give to our capital. But on the other hand you did a poll, about the topic so you gave some of your power back to the people. Once you decided to do a poll then it must follow the rhules written in the constition and it should be done in a fair way and without bias. Of course I assume that you did not chose these bias second option on purpose, but these chosen options hurt my understanding of Democray. Unfortunatly I was a little bit upset about so that my first reactions were everything else than very helpful in explaining the issure. So that I gotn't at least the reply that I had actual expected.

I still whish an official poll that does not hurt my understanding of Democracy, a poll that is based on the Democratic decision of Locutus' poll and is not based on wrong assumped based on that poll, remember you gave the power to name our first city to the people, so let's do it right.

-Martin

Pedrunn · January 20, 2003, 22:48

A phrase out of the context is really a good weapon against whose speak.
Let me get the whole sentece:

Quote:

I can name this city by any name i want. If someone does not like the name at all make a Resolution Poll!

So i am not the tyranic beast tha hates democracy. I am in power because all thought i was going to make the choices most people were going to aprove. If for some moment my oppinions does not reflect the opinion of the people, the PEOPLE can always MAKE me do the have this opinion through a resolution poll. Those polls are the real power of the people. the power to do whatever thay want. Belive this kind power is unique in the word. We are a true democracy.

Martin Gühmann · January 21, 2003, 16:14

Well I should clarify some things here:

I thought it would help if I try to explain my thought and feelings about the whole thing. Obviously I failed.

I did not used the word tyran, I included the possibility that nothing happend on purpose, just by accident. Actual I am shure that nothing happend on purpose. And remember I gave you my vote for a second chance. And I did not changed my mind.

And I already decided to accept the final decission of the court. If the court decides the poll wasn't correct than we will see what has to be done, if the court decides the poll was correct then the city name will be Lemur City as it is the outcome of the poll in question. So I already gave up the way to go for the resolution poll and didn't considerd it anymore as I wrote my last post in this thread.

Well some final questions: Here are again the first 6 entries of Locutus' unofficial city name poll:

Code:

1. El Dorado................154 (6)
2. Gondolin.................134 (5)
3. Valhalla.................124 (5)
4. Paititi..................120 (4)
5. Xanadu...................119 (5)
6. Lemur City...............100 (4)

So what are "The two most voted city names to choose from."?

If your it is still your opiion that Number 1 and Number 6 are "The two most voted city names to choose from." then tell me if the following statements are true.

Lemur Poo == Lemur Town
Lemur Poo == Lemur City
Lemur Town == Lemur City

If your opion is that these statements are all true meaning all these names are the same then tell me why you gave to Lemur * 35 points in total although from the rhules of this unofficial poll each citizien was only allowd to give 30 points at maximum to one option.

-Martin