January 18, 2003, 21:03
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#1
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Prince
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 698
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What is the worst thing in each Civ game?
As a complement to the other thread I started...
Civ 1: Too unbalanced.
Civ 2: No city view animations, no replay
Civ 3: All the bugs in the original edition.
SMAC: The abstract science-fiction environment. Well, it is a scifi game, but anyway...
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The difference between industrial society and information society:
In an industrial society you take a shower when you have come home from work.
In an information society you take a shower before leaving for work.
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January 18, 2003, 21:07
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#2
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Emperor
Local Time: 06:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: I live amongst the Red Sox Nation
Posts: 7,969
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civ1 phalanx def battleship
civ2 no replay, hg ruins the game
civ3 massive lame units can def and do defeat superior firepower with ease.. not totally realistic, i can see this in a skirmist, but come one
smac, too dark and dreary
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Boston Red Sox are 2004 World Series Champions!
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January 18, 2003, 22:28
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#3
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Local Time: 10:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,442
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Civ 1: Lousy AI
Civ 2: Lousy AI
SMAC: Lousy AI
Civ 3: Hey, at least the AI is better. . .
Guess what my favorite axe to grind is.
__________________
Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!
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January 18, 2003, 23:24
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#4
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Emperor
Local Time: 11:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,783
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civ1: unbalanced
civ2...don't remeber. i didn't pay attention to such things back then. i thought it was perfect 
SMAC: the AI, and the numerous bugs
Civ3: everything
ctp:havnt played
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January 18, 2003, 23:46
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#5
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Prince
Local Time: 08:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: IL
Posts: 576
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All civ3 games (and SMAC as well), that Communism is presented as a civilization advance.
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January 19, 2003, 00:06
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#6
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King
Local Time: 09:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cyclo-who?
Posts: 2,995
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Civ1: No hit points
Civ2: Caravans were annoying, and spies were overpowered.
CTP: I hated almost everything. For an example, though, we'll say that I hated the way my man-o-war or whatnot was sunk by an abolishionist.
Civ3: You can't program civ relations in scenarios, and the unit graphics are a pain to edit.
__________________
Lime roots and treachery!
"Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten
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January 19, 2003, 00:23
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#7
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Deity
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Republic of Flanders
Posts: 10,747
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smac : no connection to it ( tech tree )
civ III : not enough strategic choices.
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#There’s a city in my mind
Come along and take that ride
And it’s all right, baby, it’s all right #
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January 19, 2003, 00:58
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#8
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Emperor
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,665
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civ2: ICS, settlers, losing a load of units by losing one defender.
civ3: ICS, Culture, workers, no ZOCs
CtP2: MP Rush-buy bug, almost worthless trade system
SMAC: Why did they choose those colours?
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January 19, 2003, 01:11
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#9
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King
Local Time: 10:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,212
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Civ 1 - phalanx beating tanks and "I hate when the computer players fortify next to my cities"
Civ 2 - spies overpowered, ICS (by humans)
SMAC/X - poor AI decisions
CTP series - slavers, etc. are too overpowered
Civ 3 - not much variety in choices, reemergence of spearman beat tanks possibility, failure to get rid of ICS
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January 19, 2003, 03:51
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#10
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King
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 2,247
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Civ 1 - Militiary units 
Civ 2 - Lousy AI, easy ways to use 'bugs' of it to your favour.
SMAC - AI was not using the new features, therefore it got crushed
CTP - Too much micromanaging, bad goverment models, pathetic endgame techs
CTP2 & SMAX - Bugs, bugs, bugs...
Civ 3 - Every new feature seems to be skrewed, in one way or another.
Predictable AI cheats make it boring.
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January 19, 2003, 07:55
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#11
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Deity
Local Time: 17:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 18,355
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Civ 1 - phalanx. vs battleship, annoying Caravans.
Civ 2 - still annoying Caravans, isometric view, fundamentalism, overpowered spies, stupid AI.
Civ 3 - lots of useless units, screwed up modern age.
SMAC - bad AI, no rewriting history feeling, some balance issues.
CtP1 - London's Exchange makes you a winner, bugs, weak diplomacy.
CtP2 - no matter what, has to be modded to be playable, PBEM doesn't work, AI is invisible. Great when modded.
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Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man
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January 19, 2003, 13:11
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#12
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Emperor
Local Time: 11:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Brasil
Posts: 3,958
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Civ1 - phalanx vs. battleships (duh!)
Civ2 - lousy AI, overpowered spies
SMAC - Nothing. It is perfect.  Ok, lousy AI...
CTP2 (never played the first one) - unplayable in its original form
Civ3 - the feeling that it is a step back with respect to SMAC. Ok, the AI is better...
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'Yep, I've been drinking again.'
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January 19, 2003, 14:37
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#13
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King
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Moo Like In Moomin
Posts: 1,579
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Civ 1: Lousy AI
Civ 2: Lousy AI
SMAC: Lousy AI
Civ 3: Hey, at least the AI is better. . .
Guess what my favorite axe to grind is.
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Mark, back when Civ3 was new and Poly flame wars where hot, a gent called Analyst Redux did a tremendous piece of work on dissecting the Civ3 AI - I'm too lazy to search for it now, but do it if you're interested in the Civ3 AI and how it differs from previous releases. It was great stuff.
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"The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
"I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.
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January 19, 2003, 14:51
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#14
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Deity
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 13,800
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Civ1: Too random what military unit wins
Civ2: All those nasty pop-ups!
Civ3: Culture flipping when at war and half of your country's army in the flipping city.
SMAC: Add-on destroyed much of the original feeling. OK, not actually a feature, but...
__________________
Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. -Isaiah 41:10
The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing. - Zephaniah 3:17
Get The List for cIV here!
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January 19, 2003, 15:09
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#15
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King
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
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Civ: Enemy fortifying next to my city.
Civ2: Inflexible city radius
SMAC: Utterly crud graphics; some of it looked like placeholder art.
Civ3: Bland and undifferentiated map
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January 19, 2003, 15:16
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#16
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Prince
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: in perpetuity
Posts: 4,962
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Abolitionists have 0 attack... and there wasn't a man-o-war unit. But whatever
Oh, and "AI" for all Civ games.
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Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
"I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis
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January 19, 2003, 15:48
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#17
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Local Time: 10:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,442
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Quote:
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Originally posted by moomin
Mark, back when Civ3 was new and Poly flame wars where hot, a gent called Analyst Redux did a tremendous piece of work on dissecting the Civ3 AI - I'm too lazy to search for it now, but do it if you're interested in the Civ3 AI and how it differs from previous releases. It was great stuff.
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Thanks moomin, I'll try to find it about 37 pages back. . . Too bad the #$#@% search engine only goes back about 3 months nowadays. Maybe I can get it from "all posts" in his profile.
BTW, anyone who's interested, we could Desperately use comments on the Clash Diplomacy Model. See the link to the thread in my sig.
__________________
Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!
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January 19, 2003, 17:54
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#18
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King
Local Time: 09:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cyclo-who?
Posts: 2,995
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Abolitionists have 0 attack... and there wasn't a man-o-war unit. But whatever
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This actually happened to me. I was attacking with two ships of the line (or men of war, I don't know what they were called, I uninstalled over a year ago), and the city I attacked was garrisonned by only 1 abolishionist. THe ship in the back row (fighting as a ranged unit) fired first, but failed to destroy the abolishionist. The end result of the battle was that one of my ships was sunk and the other was in the yellow by the time I killed that dang woman.
__________________
Lime roots and treachery!
"Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten
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January 19, 2003, 17:59
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#19
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Deity
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
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Civ1 - Everything relating to military units. (AI fortification/Battleship vs Phalanx etc)
Civ2 - Instances where the AI acquired stealth bombers without ever having researched writing.
Civ3 - Terraforming (lack of) and technology tree mutilation.
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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January 20, 2003, 06:02
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#20
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Deity
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Posts: 30,342
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Civ1 was not balanced.
In Civ2 trade is too powerful. Lots of little bugs were never fixed as well.
Civ3 is a little mindless in combat due to the way stacking is organised. The tech model is also annoying.
SMAC: Crawlers and some air units were too powerful by far.
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January 20, 2003, 17:05
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#21
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King
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Moo Like In Moomin
Posts: 1,579
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Thanks moomin, I'll try to find it about 37 pages back. . . Too bad the #$#@% search engine only goes back about 3 months nowadays. Maybe I can get it from "all posts" in his profile.
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Ah, found it. God, that entire thread was great, but this post topped it all. If Civ3 is nothing else, it's still an object lesson in designing a game around the AI limitations.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...693#post700693
__________________
"The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
"I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.
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January 20, 2003, 19:30
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#22
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Local Time: 10:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,442
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Thanks for the link moomin, an interesting read. I don't think I saw it the first time around. . . I didn't read all of it, just the page the quote was on. Sometime when I've got an hour to burn, I'll go back and hit it from page 1.
BTW, we've designed several parts of Clash to make it easier on the AI too. But not by lobotomizing the player's choices  . The economy already knows how valuable different econ development actions are in the local economy so that the AI (or the player) can automatically identify and pick from the best ones. The player can even issue orders such that they only want to build tin mines or whatever if the additional ones are providing a huge rate of return (FE 50%). That way you can automatically 'cherry-pick' the absolute best options if all you want to do is give the economy a little boost in just the right places.
__________________
Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!
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January 21, 2003, 17:22
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#23
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Emperor
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ashes
Posts: 3,065
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civ1: AI Diplomats popping out of nowhere where the aihad only put a fortified phalanx. No stacked combat.
civ2: ToT file format being not compatible with MGE. No stacked combat.
CtP2: Lousiest AI when unmodded. Useless trade (though the system looks pretty, it just doesn't pay).
moo: Starting position is too important.
mom: Lousy AI
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Clash of Civilization team member
(a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)
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January 21, 2003, 20:54
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#24
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King
Local Time: 08:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: United States of America
Posts: 2,306
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Big Crunch
Civ2 - Instances where the AI acquired stealth bombers without ever having researched writing.
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I second that motion!
And to that end, I've gone into the RULES.TXT file and made it so that dang diplomats and spies don't have as much power — usually by reducing their movement allowance and forcing them to respect ZOCs (but I also made them able to see two tiles instead of the usual one.
Gatekeeper
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"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
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January 22, 2003, 03:15
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#25
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Deity
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Republic of Flanders
Posts: 10,747
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Quote:
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Originally posted by moomin
Ah, found it. God, that entire thread was great, but this post topped it all. If Civ3 is nothing else, it's still an object lesson in designing a game around the AI limitations.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...693#post700693
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A long time since I read it, must be one of the all time best threads on Apolyton.
Thanks
__________________
#There’s a city in my mind
Come along and take that ride
And it’s all right, baby, it’s all right #
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January 22, 2003, 03:58
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#26
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Deity
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
Posts: 13,229
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Civ1 : Caravans (I mean it takes 100years to make this trade route?)
Civ2 : Caravans
SMAX : Crawlers
Civ3 : No Caravans/no hurring wonders with cash
Yeah, I missed a feature that drove me mad. What kind of sad sayk am I?
-Jam
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January 22, 2003, 07:17
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#27
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Prince
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 698
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And now, the number of posts here have exceeded the number of post in the "What's the best thing" thread.
Are you guys pessimists, or is it easier to find drawbacks than advantages?
__________________
The difference between industrial society and information society:
In an industrial society you take a shower when you have come home from work.
In an information society you take a shower before leaving for work.
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January 22, 2003, 10:36
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#28
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Deity
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
Posts: 13,229
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Optimizer
And now, the number of posts here have exceeded the number of post in the "What's the best thing" thread.
Are you guys pessimists, or is it easier to find drawbacks than advantages?
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It's always easiest to criticise. This is certain. Or maybe there are so many good things, that we cannot pick one as the best in each game...
-Jam
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January 22, 2003, 15:19
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#29
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Deity
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
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A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so therefore the best things of a game are naturally not the focus of attention.
What use is a masterfully crafted diplomacy, technology, and military set-up in the game if the AI is too dumb to let you appreciate it and there are no MP functions (*cough* Civ3 *cough*) to use it with.
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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January 22, 2003, 16:11
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#30
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Deity
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 13,800
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See it as constructive(?  ) critizism that'll help the game to be better!  After all, we all like the civ genre, don't we?
__________________
Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. -Isaiah 41:10
The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing. - Zephaniah 3:17
Get The List for cIV here!
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