Some bugs... I think

epics · January 20, 2003, 11:07

1)On some maps I've downloaded from the net I can only choose a technology to discover in the window which is shown after discovering previous technology. I am almost sure that the answer is NO but: Is there another way to choose a technology than the Technology Tree?

2)How many units do I need, in newly conquered city, to protect it from cultural fliping into the enemy's hands?

Hurricane · January 20, 2003, 12:26

1) Go to the science advisor screen (F6) and click on the desired tech. Your research changes according to it, but if you change midstream, all accumulated research will be lost.

2) A lot. I think it was something like 1 for each foreign population (2 if resister and count as double if under disorder), 1 for each enemy-owned tile in the city radius and a few extras depending on vicinity to enemy capital and enemy culture in the city. So... 40 should be enough.

WarpStorm · January 20, 2003, 12:27

1) I don't think so.

2) It depends on a lot of factors, a good rule of thumb is twice the tiles worked by foreigners (worked by any city).

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 04:47

One factor in culture flipping is the _proportion_ of forgein nationals in the city. In a freshly captured city this is normally 100%. To help matters add a few of your workers/settlers to the city to change the balance. Then fewer troops are required. If the city has no wonders, consider razing+rebuilding. You can feel like Atilla the Hun !

-Jam

theNiceOne · January 21, 2003, 05:29

Quote:

Originally posted by War of Art
One factor in culture flipping is the _proportion_ of forgein nationals in the city. In a freshly captured city this is normally 100%. To help matters add a few of your workers/settlers to the city to change the balance. Then fewer troops are required.

Although this would make sense in real life, this is entirely, completely wrong.

A city with 1 foreign citizen and no friendly has the same flip chance as a city with 1 foreign and 20 friendly (if everything else is equal).

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 05:46

Hmm, perhaps you could be right. It's a long while since I've seen the formula for culture flipping. There was a great thread a while back that had the exact formula, and there were a number of variables.

If I remember rightly, though, proportion of nationality was one of them, along with relative cultural values and relative governments. To impose martial law you need an awful lot of soldiers, as I seem to remember that they had a very small effect.

Also, you know that feeling when a city FULL of troops flips... not good.

Does anyone know the link? It would help a lot...
-Jam

alva · January 21, 2003, 06:12

culture flip formula

theNiceOne · January 21, 2003, 06:30

alva: Thanks for the link.
War of Art: As you see from the link, the number of friendly citizens does not matter at all.

nutriphat · January 21, 2003, 06:35

what happens to units in city if the city flips? DO the enemy get them, or do they get executed?

alva · January 21, 2003, 07:01

[coracle]
It's so stupid, them go up into thin air, damn you firaxis......
[/coracle]

Yes, they get executed. To be honest, that's something I don't like either. They should have at least a chance of surving(even maybe badly wounded).

theNiceOne · January 21, 2003, 07:16

My guess is that half of your units flipped, and then fought the other half that didn't flip. And since they were of equal strength, they eliminated each other

alva · January 21, 2003, 07:18

Ah, you turn it into a feature

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 07:56

Quote:

Originally posted by theNiceOne
alva: Thanks for the link.
War of Art: As you see from the link, the number of friendly citizens does not matter at all.

Poo, I clearly stand corrected. I shall stop wasting those workers at once.

-Jam

WarpStorm · January 21, 2003, 07:58

The British Empire at their peak had a term for this, "Going Native". They were afraid that their troops and colonists abroad would decide to abandon "civilized" mores and behavior and adopt the local "uncivilized" native culture and abandon the Empire.

Read Kipling some for good tales of this.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 08:03

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm

Read Kipling some for good tales of this.

And for those of you still within the British Empire ? Well he also has some exceedingly good cakes

(Brit humour)

-Jam

MoonWolf · January 21, 2003, 08:04

Quote:

Originally posted by theNiceOne
War of Art: As you see from the link, the number of friendly citizens does not matter at all.

I've experienced the oposite... I like cultural flipping, but find it too weird when it flips and you have a bounch of military units there. So I've "cheated" by reloading the game, adding a worker or two to the flipping-ready city and the city doesn't flip. I'm quite sure I've tested this by not adding workers after reload and it still flips (means there's no random factor).

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 08:07

Quote:

Originally posted by MoonWolf

I've experienced the oposite... I like cultural flipping, but find it too weird when it flips and you have a bounch of military units there. So I've "cheated" by reloading the game, adding a worker or two to the flipping-ready city and the city doesn't flip. I'm quite sure I've tested this by not adding workers after reload and it still flips (means there's no random factor).

Ah !

This means I wasn't the only one ! Thank God ! Although my doing different actions you're probably just changing the random seed and getting a different "dice roll" for the culture flip test.

Thanks for the support (?) but I'm probably _still_ wrong.

/hangs head in shame

-Jam

theNiceOne · January 21, 2003, 08:15

Quote:

Originally posted by MoonWolf I've experienced the oposite... I like cultural flipping, but find it too weird when it flips and you have a bounch of military units there. So I've "cheated" by reloading the game, adding a worker or two to the flipping-ready city and the city doesn't flip. I'm quite sure I've tested this by not adding workers after reload and it still flips (means there's no random factor).

Interesting, but there is possible errors in your test, unless you're 100% sure that you did nothing that altered the use of random numbers.

Can you post a save containing a city that will flip, with an accompanying explanation of how to avoid the flip?

Hurricane · January 21, 2003, 08:47

One potential answer could be that you add foreign workers of some third civ. Then the random number, which before the reload would have flipped the city, is now used on that one single foreign pop in the city, with no flipping occuring. A new random number is then used on the second part of the population, and that number might now be so small that the city doesn't flip.

I'll illustrate with an example:

Say you have captured Beijing, size 14 (all Chinese pop). The city flips the next turn, because the random number used in the flipping calculation was very low.

You reload and add an english worker. Now, that same random number is used on calculating if the city will flip to the english. With only 1 pop the risk is nonexistent, and even the bad random number isn't low enough to flip it. Another random number is used to calculate flipping to the chinese, and this number is now higher than the risk of flipping. End result=no flip.

Note that you would avoid the flip by adding that english worker to any city with no english population, as long as the city's flipping calculation is done before that of Beijing's.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 08:52

Sure, I was probably adding "slaves" from other "beaten enemies" to the pops. I never remember to look at the nationality in the bottom corner window, just the colour.

Actually I _rarely_ build my own workers...

-Jam

bongo · January 21, 2003, 09:12

Moonwolf, what you observed is 'preserve random seeds' in action. If you reload a game and repeat your actions then the outcome of battle(and CF's) will be exactly the same. If you change your actions(or the sequence of your actions) then the (pseudo)random number sequence will be altered, or more correctly, the numbers will stay the same but apply to different actions. Anyway, 'preserve random seeds' can be turned off if you like to.

I've seen CF's in almost ALL my games. The one that surprised me the most was when a former american city flipped back to them. This was a fully developed city with 23pop and about 1000 culture points. It was about 15 tiles away from their remaining two(worthless) towns and I had owned it for centuries. It turned out that there were still 7 americans in the city and that they had a culture of 2000 in that city when I captured it. Wich in turn were enough for a CF to take place.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 09:30

Does this mean then that nationality of the population _IS_ a big factor?

That's the big question really, innit?

-Jam

bongo · January 21, 2003, 09:43

There are a number of factors(6?) of which number of foreign nationals and overlapping city radius is the two biggest.

Number of troops is the smallest.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 09:57

I'm no mathmatician, but is NUMBER of forigen nationals the factor, or PROPORTION of them ?

I'm dying for an answer, really.

-Jam

Brundlefly · January 21, 2003, 10:16

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
The British Empire at their peak had a term for this, "Going Native". They were afraid that their troops and colonists abroad would decide to abandon "civilized" mores and behavior and adopt the local "uncivilized" native culture and abandon the Empire.

Read Kipling some for good tales of this.

Or Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness"...

theNiceOne · January 21, 2003, 10:35

Quote:

Originally posted by War of Art
I'm no mathmatician, but is NUMBER of forigen nationals the factor, or PROPORTION of them ?

I'm dying for an answer, really.

-Jam

Only the NUMBER. As you can see from the formula (the link is on the previous page), it starts by counting the number of foreign citizens + number of tiles under foreign control.

Note that this is calculated individually for each foreign civ. Assume a city that has 5 roman, 3 egyptian and 5 german (yours) citizens, and 2 tiles under roman control and 4 tiles under chinese control. Now the CF will be calculated three times each turn.
Once for flip to the romans, where the base is 5 + 2.
Once for flip to the egyptians, where the base is 3 + 0.
Once for flip to the chinese, where the base is 0 + 4.

Your 5 german citizens do not affect any of the three CF calculations in any way (and neither do the romans affect the egyptian flip chance etc.), although if the 5 roman citizens were unhappy and brought the city into civil disdorder, then the flip chance is increased in all three calculations. Not directly because unhappy romans, but because the civil disorder.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 10:39

Finally. I'm a gamer not a doctor !

Thanks

-Jam

MoonWolf · January 21, 2003, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Hurricane
One potential answer could be that you add foreign workers of some third civ. Then the random number, which before the reload would have flipped the city, is now used on that one single foreign pop in the city, with no flipping occuring. A new random number is then used on the second part of the population, and that number might now be so small that the city doesn't flip.

Nope, I always add my own workers. I only add foreign workers to cities that are not on a border...

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
Moonwolf, what you observed is 'preserve random seeds' in action. If you reload a game and repeat your actions then the outcome of battle(and CF's) will be exactly the same. If you change your actions(or the sequence of your actions) then the (pseudo)random number sequence will be altered, or more correctly, the numbers will stay the same but apply to different actions. Anyway, 'preserve random seeds' can be turned off if you like to.

I've seen CF's in almost ALL my games. The one that surprised me the most was when a former american city flipped back to them. This was a fully developed city with 23pop and about 1000 culture points. It was about 15 tiles away from their remaining two(worthless) towns and I had owned it for centuries. It turned out that there were still 7 americans in the city and that they had a culture of 2000 in that city when I captured it. Wich in turn were enough for a CF to take place.

That's my point! According to what I've read here, the number of your own citizens are not relevant. This means that adding a worker or two of your own shouldn't affect the random events, right? But when I added my worker, it didn't flip... Maybe it has been some mixup the patches or something...

Funny how those Americans take control over your 16 other pops and your army...

Unfortunetaly I don't have any saves to show you as I reuse them... But if I experience it again I can post it!

bongo · January 21, 2003, 11:04

I know better now. I usually eliminate the entire civ in one go or starve down the cities so there are fewer foreign citizens(I prefer only one). In any case I never leave a large army in a city that is likely to revolt. I lost just one or two unit at the time and wiped the americans off the map the next turn. My biggest loss were the temple, library...

As for the random numbers, I simply don't know if adding workers alters the sequence but by looking at your experience my guess is that it does. I would not be surprised if ANY action on your part alters the random numbers sequence.

epics · January 21, 2003, 12:16

As I said: I can't change my research in Since Advisor Screen (F6), it just don't work, nothing can be marked!!!
And thanks for the "culture fliping" thni.g