Zsozso's attempt at fastest transcend on huge map

zsozso · January 21, 2003, 08:40

I have started an attempt on the "Fast transcend on huge map" challenge proposed by Hendrik in the thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=73935

Playing SMAX (extension pack), settings, options:

Random huge map
least ocean
Dense coulds
average fungus
average erosion
difficulty: citizen

Rules:

Victory by transcend only
Do or die
Spoils of war
No random events

Factions: I am playing Gaians (Deidre), all 6 opponents are pirates.
Basic strategy:
David Byron's moth technique, i.e. thin expansion by building colony pods after colony pods in each base and planting them in a tight formation (every second square as terrain allows, not wasting time by removing fungus or leveling rocky terrain). Note: I am not building any military units, not even a single defender for the bases. Instead, I rely entirely on captured worms: capture the first one by the initial scout patrol, then troll the fungus all the time with the increasing number of worms. This has the benefit of being free in 2 ways: [list=1][*]No minerals spent on building them[*]They are all independent, thus no minerals for supporting them[/list=1]
Further benefit of such trolling of fungus: those aliens that cannot be captured shall be killed, gaining some bonus energy (planet perls).
Having +1 ecology, then later switching to Green will make it very
unlikely that I lose any such battle.

I know it sounds insane not to play the University for such a challenge, but the above explanation might explain my choice of faction. Anyway we'll see how it goes. I will post periodic progress updates on this thread.

The starting map is attached. Note, that I'm playing it on Linux (ported by Loki Software), so I'm not sure if it loads up ok in the windows version of the software - give it a try and let me know, please.

Archaic · January 21, 2003, 08:44

You'll find that there's limits in the game code to how many independant worms you can have (After a certain number, they're auto-attached to a base), and how good your chances are at capture (>6 worms owned=Significantly lower chances of capture).

Then again, you're playing Citizen.

zsozso · January 21, 2003, 08:51

I know about the limit - played some challenge games like OCC with such an army already. However, the limit changes based on your eco rating, so it can be pushed. It also applies independently to each type of unit, i.e. when you have reached your limit on worms, you can still capture spore launchers, sea units and locusts of chiron. And the citizen option might help too - as a matter of fact, this level of difficulty (or lack thereof) is quite unknown to me.

Archaic · January 21, 2003, 09:13

As far as I know, it doesn't change the worm capture limitations, though the fact those limitations make a distinction between Spore Launchers, Sealurks, IoD's and Locusts is a new one to me.

Still though.....Citizen? Please, there's no honour in a win on that level. :-p

MariOne · January 21, 2003, 09:59

(

understood)
I think that only strict frame is
Huge
No lame loophole cheats (SE flipflops for Industry & diplomacy, Drop bug, F4 bugs, Q Stockpiling, terraforming turn crediting, homing on pactmates, DemonBoils by patrolling)
No Ctrl-K or previous Scenario preparation
No reloads

All the rest, including setting, rules and options and level, should be reported for documentation only but is entirely up to each contestant's choice.
It is yet to be proved that, *on Huge*, Citizen actually makes for the easiest solution and Transcend makes for the hardest.

For one, I would be curious to test the self-7-hotseat record David Byron suggested

Indeed, should I ever apply to the Challenge, I'd more see it as finding a game benchmark together rather than comparing individual skills.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by MariOne
For one, I would be curious to test the self-7-hotseat record David Byron suggested

With all respect I would be curious to know how long that will take you (still on huge, right?)

-Jam

Archaic · January 21, 2003, 10:27

In the game, it probably wouldn't take that long, assuming builder factions, but in real life......you wouldn't *have* a real life.

Jamski · January 21, 2003, 10:37

I don't have a "real" life anyway. I'll have a go.

Or maybe not.

-Jam

Archaic · January 21, 2003, 11:02

I'll probably end up trying it one of these days. I'd be interested to know though what the restrictions on factions allowed to be used are.

Hendrik · January 21, 2003, 16:33

Zsozso-
I am honored to have you taking up this challenge! However if you did it on citizen difficulty then it wouldn't be within the rules stated at the beginning of the fast transcend thread:

Quote:

If anyone has transcendance saves from before year 136 on transcend difficulty then please post them, otherwise consider this a challenge!

I am sorry for all the confusion related to this, I have never organized a challenge of any kind before, I didn't expect so much controversy.

I think the Gaians moss style would be pretty interesting, if you can transcend before year 150 with them I would be highly impressed.

I saw someone using the gaians "moss style" very effectively in an MP game... they expanded rapidly without building roads, and only used formers for forests.

Once he got the PTS he was amazingly far ahead on the power chart, and if he had had any idea how to use crawlers and his economy he could have stayed first.

Capt Dizle · January 21, 2003, 16:53

I know I did a sub 136 on huge transcend but I don't have any of my old saves. I'll probably try this at some point but I prefer a different sort of challenge, wherein everyone plays from the same position.

What does homing on pactmates mean Mose? And you don't get demon boils from patroling unless you set waypoints, right?

We should also speak to the tactics of base gifting or allowing bases to flip or be captured. I assume that you can play either SMAC or SMACX? And free choice of factions, i.e. all university for example.

zsozso · January 21, 2003, 16:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Hendrik
Zsozso-
I am honored to have you taking up this challenge! However if you did it on citizen difficulty then it wouldn't be within the rules stated at the beginning of the fast transcend thread:

I am sorry for all the confusion related to this, I have never organized a challenge of any kind before, I didn't expect so much controversy.

I think the Gaians moss style would be pretty interesting, if you can transcend before year 150 with them I would be highly impressed.

Ooops I have missed that line...

Anyway, I'll continue now, because I have a good start on this citizen stuff (however lame it is

) then I'l make another attempt on transcend level - the real stuff.

Mongoose · January 21, 2003, 17:20

I think Morgan might have been the best faction to try this with at citizen level. IIRC, at that level, there is NO penalty for switching production. This means that any SP can be bought at 2ec per mineral. SPs can be purchased before Industrial Automation allows the crawler upgrade tactic. There is virtually no reason not to be able to build all the SPs at citizen, if you have cash.

Hendrik · January 22, 2003, 00:50

jimmytrick-
Do you remember what faction/tactics were used in that early transcend?

If we want to do it as a challenge, I still want the option of making it possible to play as several different factions, because I know some people would want Zakharov (most), and others may want other factions (I like Morgan).

MariOne · January 22, 2003, 05:09

JT, "homing on pactmates" was a concise reminder for when you home one of your units (Ctrl-H?) inside of one of your pactmates' bases, *keeping* its control but waiving off its support (IIRC that unit becomes "independent", not namely but de facto, that is, despite the display charges it on the pactmate base, he won't be paying its support neither, I don't know about pacifism effects).
Not that it would find much application in singleplayer, but as it's the exploitment of a bug making no sense in gameplay, I deemed it an obvious cheat here too.

Yes regarding waypoints, afaik.

I don't see why we should restrict base gifitng.
Re AI base *trading* instead, while it's banned in pbems, here it all depends whether we more see this as a benchmark quest or as a skills challenge, as I said.

In the benchmark perspective, I think it's a *legal* (albeit too easy) game mechanics, on the same line of the Citizen level tricks envisioned by Mongoose & David Byron.

zsozso · January 22, 2003, 06:42

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2111
Population: 2
Number of bases: 2
Technology: 2: Cent.Eco, Biogen
Researching: Inf.Net (ready next turn), speed 4 truns/tech
Energy: 117, earning 2/turn, allocation 70%labs, 30% economy
SE: frontier, simple, survival, none
Units: 2 formers, 1 scout, 1 unity rover, 3 worms

Popped some monolits around starting site, which is the best resource at early stages. Found Uranium flats north of the starting site fairly close, great territory to colonize!

Here is the save attached. BTW, did anyone try to load up my starting save?
Jimmytrick, if you prefer to start from the same point, you could play from my starting save attached at the beginning of this thread - of course, your choice of faction setting is predetermined in this case.

zsozso · January 22, 2003, 06:49

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2121
Population: 5
Number of bases: 5
Technology: 4: Cent.Eco, Biogen, Inf.Net, Plan.Net
Researching: Ind.Base (2 turns left), speed 7 truns/tech
Energy: 107, earning 5/turn, allocation 50%labs, 50% economy
SE: frontier, planned, survival, none
Units: 1 colony pod, 4 formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 4 worms, 1 spore launcher

Continent is fairly large south of me, but nothing of great interest on it.
No contact yet, although it is not surprising considering that all other factions are pirates.

zsozso · January 22, 2003, 07:54

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2131
Population: 14
Number of bases: 10
Technology: 10: Cent.Eco, Biogen, Inf.Net, Plan.Net, Doct.Mob, Ind.Base, App.Physics, Doct.Flex, Ind.Eco, Ind.Aut.
Researching: Soc.Psych (7 turns left), speed 10 truns/tech
Energy: 103, earning 10/turn, allocation 70%labs, 30% economy
SE: frontier, planned, wealth, none
Units: 3 colony pods, 10 formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 5 worms, 1 spore launcher, 2 alien artifacts, 1 unity foil

Popped the frequency of Sven5, traded some techs with him and signed a treaty.

zsozso · January 22, 2003, 07:57

Forgot to attach the game save to previous post.

CEO Aaron · January 23, 2003, 05:19

In response to your *nix - Winblows compatibility concerns, I was able to D/L and load your games on my Win2k box just fine.

On a more topical note, I'm starting to note a scary trend of all the killer players of this game playing with _super_ tight spacing. Looks like I need to consider cramming my stuff even closer together than before.

zsozso · January 23, 2003, 23:55

Aaron, thanks for checking the compatibility! Good to know.

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2141
Population: 62
Number of bases: 21
Technology: 16: Cent.Eco, Biogen, Inf.Net, Plan.Net, Doct.Mob, Ind.Base, App.Physics, Doct.Flex, Ind.Eco, Ind.Aut., Prog.Psych, Soc.Psych, Eth.Calc., Sec.Hum.Brain, Nonlin.Math, High Ener.Chem.
Researching: Cent.Emp. (1 turn left), speed 6 truns/tech
Energy: 280, earning 64/turn, allocation 50%labs, 50% economy
SE: democratic, planned, wealth, none
Units: 1 colony pods, 15 formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 6 worms, 1 spore launcher, 1 alien artifact, 1 unity foil, 7 crawler, 1 isle of deep, 1 laser skimship, 2 land transports

Managed to collect all the comm frequencies (some traded, some met on the sea), then elected myself as governor. I'm in treaty with all the pirates, often selling them my techs for energy. This way, whenever they research something, it is also knew to me, so I can get techs in trade (I do not let them fall behind). Now the exponential growth effect is really kicking in.

Capt Dizle · January 24, 2003, 01:18

Good Lord.

zsozso · January 24, 2003, 01:29

Oh, I forgot to mention an important addition in the stats:
Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm, Planetary Transit System

Both of these were built during the last 10 turns with the help of crawlers.
PTS made a huge difference, since previously all my bases were at size 1 (due to the constant colony pod building), then they all suddenly jumped to pop 3 with PTS.

Capt Dizle · January 24, 2003, 02:46

You are a good citizen.

Capt Dizle · January 24, 2003, 13:43

Quote:

Originally posted by MariOne
JT, "homing on pactmates" was a concise reminder for when you home one of your units (Ctrl-H?) inside of one of your pactmates' bases, *keeping* its control but waiving off its support (IIRC that unit becomes "independent", not namely but de facto, that is, despite the display charges it on the pactmate base, he won't be paying its support neither, I don't know about pacifism effects).
Not that it would find much application in singleplayer, but as it's the exploitment of a bug making no sense in gameplay, I deemed it an obvious cheat here too.

Yes regarding waypoints, afaik.

I don't see why we should restrict base gifitng.
Re AI base *trading* instead, while it's banned in pbems, here it all depends whether we more see this as a benchmark quest or as a skills challenge, as I said.

In the benchmark perspective, I think it's a *legal* (albeit too easy) game mechanics, on the same line of the Citizen level tricks envisioned by Mongoose & David Byron.

Base trading and citizen level....

zsozso · January 24, 2003, 22:12

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2151
Population: 87
Number of bases: 33
Technology: 23 (I'm too lazy to list them anymore...)
Researching: Cent.Med. (3 turn left), speed 4 truns/tech
Energy: 169, earning 76/turn, allocation 80%labs, 20% economy
SE: democratic, green, wealth, none
Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm, Planetary Transit System, Energy Grid
Units: 8 colony pods, 32 formers, 3 sea formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 7 worms, 1 spore launcher, 1 alien artifact, 1 unity foil, 3 crawler, 1 isle of deep, 1 laser skimship, 2 land transports, 1 supply ship

I had a colony-pod overflow, i.e. there is no more land nearby to plant them, either have to walk long way south, or expand my continent by land raising. I'm doing a bit of both, plus switched production from colony pods to recycling tanks and network nodes, then research labs in the inner bases.
Forest planting is also too slow in comparison to new land colonization. I probably have to build a second fleet of formers (i.e. 2 per city instead of 1 per city).

zsozso · January 25, 2003, 16:16

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2161
Population: 116
Number of bases: 46
Technology: 30 (I'm too lazy to list them anymore...)
Researching: Doct.Air Power (2 turn left), speed 2 truns/tech
Energy: 59, earning 118/turn, allocation 80%labs, 20% economy
SE: democratic, green, wealth, none
Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm, Planetary Transit System, Energy Grid
Units: 20 colony pods, 46 formers, 3 sea formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 8 worms, 2 spore launchers, 1 alien artifact, 1 unity foil, 5 crawlers, 1 isle of deep, 1 laser skimship, 4 land transports, 3 supply ships, 2 destroyer transports, 1 Unity chopper

Looks like my strategy is getting rusty in the fast-transcend techniques. I forgot about an important factor: global trade. A few turns ago I got the tech for the global trade pact and get it voted by the council (with some persuasion). To maximize the effect I also made pact with all the factions (had to throw in some techs to convince some of them). Anyway, the point is that I just realized then, how huge effect it makes on the lab output of the few cities that do get trades. Unfortunately, the pirates have very few cities, so only 3-4 of my cities get that nice extra income. So, my new idea: instead of building cities for myself, I start shipping colony pods to lands closer to the pirate factions, plant them there and then gift them to the pirates. This way, I can get trade in more of my cities. I should have started this much earlier, then I could already enjoy the benefits...

Capt Dizle · January 26, 2003, 00:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Hendrik
jimmytrick-
Do you remember what faction/tactics were used in that early transcend?

If we want to do it as a challenge, I still want the option of making it possible to play as several different factions, because I know some people would want Zakharov (most), and others may want other factions (I like Morgan).

My memory isn't too good at my age.

I "think" we had a challenge game and the best show was in the twenties. We all played the same map and I am sure it was a University game. But it could have been a smaller map. As for tactics I don't remember but I assume everyone was building energy parks.

And it would have been SMAC for sure.

I am currently trying a SMACX University game against two Dees, two Morgans, and two Lals. I don't think I'll do very well, not enough starting land mass and one of the Dees is right next door. Also, I missed the HGP. Probably get there in the forties or early fifties.

When I built the EG I found that the other factions are sitting on 16 artifacts. Maybe I should play against six Zaks. That will be my next try.

zsozso · January 27, 2003, 08:18

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2171
Population: 175
Number of bases: 67
Technology: 38 (I'm too lazy to list them anymore...)
Researching: Adv.Subat.Theory (1 turn left), speed 2 truns/tech
Energy: 144, earning 21/turn, allocation 90%labs, 10% economy
SE: democratic, green, knowledge, none
Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm, Planetary Transit System, Energy Grid,
Cloudbase Academy
Units: 10 colony pods, 3 drop colony pods, 70 formers, 3 sea formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 8 worms, 5 spore launchers, 2 alien artifacts, 1 unity foil, 21 crawlers, 1 isle of deep, 1 laser skimship, 4 land transports, 3 supply ships, 4 destroyer transports, 1 Unity chopper

The base gifting technique is working, micromanagement is getting to be boring with so many bases and formers...

Jimmytrick, I think you are right, the best would be to play with 7 zaks, you can get them to do much better work. Even if you don't enslave them, you can still use them by trading techs. You just have to keep them cooperative throughout the game (that may require some gift techs).

zsozso · January 29, 2003, 09:32

Statistics of my game standing:
Year 2181
Population: 326
Number of bases: 88
Technology: 49 (I'm too lazy to list them anymore...)
Researching: Applied Relativity (1 turn left), speed 1 turn/tech
Energy: 682, earning 221/turn, allocation 90%labs, 10% economy
SE: democratic, green, knowledge, none
Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm, Planetary Transit System, Energy Grid,
Cloudbase Academy
Units: 1 colony pods, 3 drop colony pods, 104 formers, 10 sea formers, 1 scout, 2 unity rover, 13 worms, 7 spore launchers, 7 alien artifacts, 1 unity foil, 31 crawlers, 4 isle of deep, 1 laser skimship, 4 land transports, 3 supply ships, 4 destroyer transports

Upgrading to super formers. Stopped colony pod production and building
various base improvements, crawlers and energy parks. Techs coming in each turn plus extra ones from alien artifacts. I got 7 orbital power transmitters and 7 sky hydraponics labs to provide extra food and energy for all bases (they get max benefit due to Cloudbase Academy).

However, it is a very tedious game to micromanage 88 bases and over a hundred formers. I liked the tiny world fast transcend games much better. There it was a fine art to balance what is worth and squeeze the maximum productivity into the minimum time.

My faction choice (own and opponent) was not the best for this size map. I also made several tactical mistakes, so even though I might be able to finish this under 100 turns (which was my goal), but I'm sure it could have been done significantly better (5-10 turns faster).