January 21, 2003, 21:00
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#1
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Settler
Local Time: 14:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Ann Arbor, MI USA
Posts: 5
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Great Library Question
I've searched the manual and forums, but can't seem to find an answer to this question, which may be dumb, but...
When you have the Great Library, do you need to have contact with two other civs with the technology to get the spoils from it? I recently had a game on a pangea, but I didn't know that (since the planet was all 'random'), and I was the lucky one with a good size island to myself, so I was just developing it, without much regard to meeting the rest of the world.
When I did meet the other ten or so civs (all at once since they shared the same supercontinent), I found that I was an also-ran in the tech race, but hadn't gotten a single thing out of the GL (which was, by that time, obsolete).
Just wondering if anyone knows about this.
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January 21, 2003, 21:45
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#2
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:54
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Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
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Yes, contact with two civs with a given tech will do the trick.
There are some great threads about 'slingshotting' with the GLib, due to the fact that it goes obsolete AFTER you learn techs.
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The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
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January 22, 2003, 03:31
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#3
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Warlord
Local Time: 15:54
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Posts: 151
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Just to give you some relief:
At least you kept the GL from the other civs, otherwise one of them would have got the tech bonus (because they DID have contact).
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January 22, 2003, 09:05
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#4
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King
Local Time: 10:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Philly
Posts: 2,961
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"Slingshot" example:
When you're isolated and have the GL, the trick is to get communications with EVERY Civ possible on the same turn once you make contact. That way you will learn every single tech that two or more of the other Civs already have.
In my current game, I was on the smaller of two continents with about 8 other Civs. Warring and such had kept our tech progress slowed so that the "local" Civs were all in the early Middle Ages. When contact with the larger continent occurred, I traded resources/luxuries/money/WM so that I got communications with all of the other 15 Civs (yes, I play with 24). Turned out the Civs on the larger continent were just entering the Industrial Age... thanks to the GL, I got every remaining tech for the Middle Ages and was asked which Industrial Age tech I'd like to start on. Yikes! Of course, I upgraded all my knights to cavalry and completely overwhelmed the Civs on my home continent, then switched to Democracy and used my huge number of cities to maintain tech parity with the other continent, and finally gained the lead late in the Industrial Age.
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"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
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January 22, 2003, 21:28
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#5
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Prince
Local Time: 08:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Wisconsonian Empire
Posts: 635
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if you must have contact, how come you can become aware of when a civ completes a great wonder when you/anybody you know doesnt have contact with them?
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January 23, 2003, 01:16
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#6
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Warlord
Local Time: 10:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Not Mayberry, NC
Posts: 140
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Wandering minstrels from distant, mysterious lands bring tales of magnificent feats accomplished by unknown peoples.
At least I think it was wandering minstrels. Maybe it was meandering wastrels, but what the heck?
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"Illegitimi non carborundum"
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January 24, 2003, 20:05
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#7
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Emperor
Local Time: 16:54
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: turicum, helvetistan
Posts: 9,852
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Stuie
"Slingshot" example:
When you're isolated and have the GL, the trick is to get communications with EVERY Civ possible on the same turn once you make contact. That way you will learn every single tech that two or more of the other Civs already have.
In my current game, I was on the smaller of two continents with about 8 other Civs. Warring and such had kept our tech progress slowed so that the "local" Civs were all in the early Middle Ages. When contact with the larger continent occurred, I traded resources/luxuries/money/WM so that I got communications with all of the other 15 Civs (yes, I play with 24). Turned out the Civs on the larger continent were just entering the Industrial Age... thanks to the GL, I got every remaining tech for the Middle Ages and was asked which Industrial Age tech I'd like to start on. Yikes! Of course, I upgraded all my knights to cavalry and completely overwhelmed the Civs on my home continent, then switched to Democracy and used my huge number of cities to maintain tech parity with the other continent, and finally gained the lead late in the Industrial Age.
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sorry, that can't be. the effect of the great library expires with education. so you can't have got to the end of the medieval ages (after education comes banking, astronomy, etc.)
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January 24, 2003, 21:19
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#8
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:54
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
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sabrewolf,
Yes it CAN be. IF all that knowledge came at ONCE. That's where the "slingshot" is involved, because you were slung way PAST Education.
(Yes, I would also prefer not to have been that far behind)
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JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
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January 24, 2003, 21:23
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#9
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Emperor
Local Time: 16:54
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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Posts: 9,852
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ah, sorry, my bad
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January 24, 2003, 21:37
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#10
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Deity
Local Time: 02:54
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
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 Wow, Stuie. That's highly cool. Has anyone tried staying behind in tech for ages, diverting money to other things, whilst having the GL, and then contacting the other civs to catch up most of the way without doing a jot of research yourself? It could be tricky, as they could find you at any time, but if you were on a two continent world or Archipelago world, you could put it off a long time before they found you.
And does contact mean simply being able to talk to them, ie moving next to their borders/units/cities? Or is "contact" established after you first accept their emissary.
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January 24, 2003, 22:59
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#11
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:54
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Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
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1. There have been some amazing slingshot examples reported... 15 techs, or the like.
2. I think 'contact' is just knowing another civ, i.e., they are able to appear in your F4 screen.
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The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
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January 25, 2003, 09:33
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#12
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Emperor
Local Time: 16:54
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Posts: 9,852
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oh, i'll try this on a map. get a nice big continent all for yourself, bealine to literature, get great library and wait until the AI discovers you after magnetism... you'll have enough money to upgrade all your units
the problem: you'll be way behind in city improvements (courthouses, marketplaces, cathedrals) and you won't get any late ancient age and no medieval age wonders... but maybe it's worth it...
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January 25, 2003, 12:26
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#13
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King
Local Time: 15:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Italia
Posts: 2,036
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But one civ contacting you is enough to spoil this cool plan and turn to dust your hopes to dominate
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I will never understand why some people on Apolyton find you so clever. You're predictable, mundane, and a google-whore and the most observant of us all know this. Your battles of "wits" rely on obscurity and whenever you fail to find something sufficiently obscure, like this, you just act like a 5 year old. Congratulations, molly.
Asher on molly bloom
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January 25, 2003, 13:21
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#14
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Emperor
Local Time: 16:54
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: turicum, helvetistan
Posts: 9,852
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iirc you only get techs known to at least 2 civs...
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- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
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January 25, 2003, 13:39
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#15
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Prince
Local Time: 06:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Call me KOTA
Posts: 365
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I dont like slingshotting because you can end way behind in infrastructure, such as finishing cathedrals in your cities when other civs are starting factories.
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Supercitzen Pekka
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January 26, 2003, 12:24
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#16
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Warlord
Local Time: 16:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Arctic Hill
Posts: 266
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I have found slingshotting useful in deity games, where you very easily fall behind. And slingshoting works even better if you capture the GL. No drawbacks, only benefits.
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January 26, 2003, 12:27
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#17
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Emperor
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Posts: 9,852
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i don't think it's easy to capture the GL if you're far behind in techs. will catapults and knights you can't really pass that barrier of riflemen or infantry...
__________________
- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
- Atheism is a nonprophet organization.
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January 26, 2003, 13:26
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#18
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:54
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
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Give me enough Knights...
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
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January 26, 2003, 13:42
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#19
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King
Local Time: 15:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Italia
Posts: 2,036
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Once I captured a greek GL with knights when all my opponents were already building their first tanks
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I will never understand why some people on Apolyton find you so clever. You're predictable, mundane, and a google-whore and the most observant of us all know this. Your battles of "wits" rely on obscurity and whenever you fail to find something sufficiently obscure, like this, you just act like a 5 year old. Congratulations, molly.
Asher on molly bloom
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January 27, 2003, 11:26
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#20
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King
Local Time: 10:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Philly
Posts: 2,961
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Datajack Franit
But one civ contacting you is enough to spoil this cool plan and turn to dust your hopes to dominate
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Definitely. That's why you need to do whatever it takes to gain communcations with all the other Civs at the moment you meet one of them.
As for how far behind you can be and still recover, I was lucky in that the other continent's Civs had just reached the Industrial Age. If they had been much further ahead, I'm not sure any sort of slingshot effect could have helped me. As it was, they had just finished the Middle Age techs (I was even able to rush Adam Smith's with a leader I had available), so my infrastructure wasn't too far behind (Cathedrals, Banks and Universities were the only buildings I lacked). With the money gained through trading my various luxury monopolies and a switch to Democracy, I was easily able to rush the missing buildings in my most important cities while overwhelming my neighbors on my home continent with newly upgraded Cavalry. The war at home brought in a steady supply of leaders, so in the end I was able get ALL of the Industrial and Modern Age wonders.
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"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
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January 29, 2003, 12:44
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#21
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King
Local Time: 10:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Datajack Franit
But one civ contacting you is enough to spoil this cool plan and turn to dust your hopes to dominate
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Only if you make a trade for education would his be a problem, as the GL becomes obsolete only when you discover it. Also they usually know at least one more civ with the apropriate techs so trade for as many communications as you can on the turn you meet the new civ.
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January 29, 2003, 14:28
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#22
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Warlord
Local Time: 14:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 152
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I thought the wonder becomes obselete if ANY civs found education?
Thats why if somebody has GL I would beeline straight to education to make it obselete right away.
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January 29, 2003, 15:56
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#23
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King
Local Time: 10:54
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Location: Philly
Posts: 2,961
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Not so. It becomes obsolete at the beginning of the turn after the owning player discovers Education.
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"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
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January 29, 2003, 19:35
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#24
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Deity
Local Time: 08:54
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Location: of naughty
Posts: 10,579
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I wasn't aware of this, I always thought the GL went obsolete once any civ discovered Education.
What I used to do (and will still do since I don't like to fall that behind) is take the low road, researching into Invention, Gunpowder, Metallurgy, Military Tradition while the AI goes towards education. I usually get to Mil. Tradition before the AI discovers Education but by then I also have those techs thanks to the GL and end up with a HUGE military advantage since the AI has not yet got the above mentioned techs.
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January 29, 2003, 19:46
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#25
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Emperor
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i always go for monotheism and theology first (except if in need of immediate defence). so the completely other route of which you take 
cathedrals are very important when cities get bigger and the sistine chapel is one of my favorite wonders of all.
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- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
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January 29, 2003, 22:51
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#26
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Deity
Local Time: 08:54
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Location: of naughty
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I like the sistine chapel too, what I do is start accumulating shields in one non-capital city (building the Palace) so that by the time I get theology thru the GL, I can build the chapel in less than 10 turns.
By going the low road you are also most likely to get Leonardo's Workshop, another must-have IMO.
After getting education I top it off with Magellan's Expedition, one of my favorite wonders and that's pretty much it for the middle ages.
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A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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January 30, 2003, 12:24
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#27
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Warlord
Local Time: 14:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 152
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I just tried it last night. It's true the wonder becomes obselete after the wonder owner discovers education..
Bah.. Next time I'll make sure they do discover education by trading it, ending their free trip down the tech tree early.
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January 30, 2003, 17:03
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#28
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:54
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The other expiring wonders in Civ III work the same way.
(Gift your soon to be oppoenent with the Great Wall Metalurgy to collapse that wall!)
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Last edited by joncnunn; January 30, 2003 at 17:21.
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February 3, 2003, 20:32
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#29
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Prince
Local Time: 08:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: of Central Texas
Posts: 561
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Just another point about the GL that I found interesting: The civ w/ the GL doesn't learn the new tech until the turn AFTER it is learned.
In one game I was able to out research the civ w/ the GL (at least to some techs) and I was able to sell the tech to them! (If they just would have waited 1 turn they would have gotten it for free via the GL.) Come to think of it, that could have been considered an 'exploit'. Oh well....
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"...Every Right implies a certain Responsibility; Every Opportunity, an Obligation; Every Possession, a Duty." --J.D. Rockerfeller, Jr.
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February 3, 2003, 20:53
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#30
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Prince
Local Time: 07:54
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 476
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They ought to add to a Wonder that comes after the GL, like making Leonardo's Workshop have the feature of giving you the same thing that the GL did. Of course, the GL ought to have a higher culture rating, but then so should Leonardo's (so many years later, and we still talk about the guy). Or maybe we could give that feature to the Internet, but by then you'd be caught up with everybody anyway.
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Whew! I'm back and ready to start writing again.
Coming soon: Pax America Redux (Including concepts/civs from Conquests)
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