CNN Special Documentary

[GeneralTacticus]

In the darkness before dawn, the workers file into the factory. When the last of them enters, a steel door slams shut behind them and whistle blow announces the beginning of another day’s work. Hundreds of children, none older than sixteen and often younger than twelve, work for the next twelve hours assembling machine tools that will produce weaponry, construction material and the day to day comforts of life for the citizens of their nation. They work without pause or break, unceasingly, hunched over their part of the assembly line until their eyes blur and the pain in their backs becomes unbearable.

The claustrophobia in the in the air is palpable; the workroom is no larger than it has to be, the ceiling is too low for many of the taller children, and there is little space between workstations. Security cameras swivel slowly back and forth recording everything and noting any signs of slacking. Eventually, after half a day of work that seems to have blurred into an eternity, a bell rings, announcing a thirty minute rest for lunch. The children open drawers beneath their workstations and pull out a small, bland packet of rations, which they quickly consume before sitting down on the floor and trying to get some sleep before having to start work again.

At last, another bell rings announcing the end of the day. Work halts and the children let out a collective sigh, before a voice speaks over the loudspeakers.

“DUE TO YOUR FAILURE TO MEET YEASTERDAY’S PRODUCTION QUOTA, WORK IS TO CONTINUE FOR ANOTHER TWO HOURS. IF THE QUOTA IS NOT MET BY THEN, RATIONS WILL BE WITHELD UNTIL IT IS.”

A loud groan echoes around the room, but the children know better than to waste time complaining. They slowly go back to work until a final bell announces that they are free to go. The steel door slides open and the children squeeze out as quickly as possible – with just another few hours until they must return for their next shift.

* Image fades out, replaced by a reporter's face *

What is this? Footage from some Third World dictatorship on Old Earth? Indonesia, perhaps? Pakistan? China?

No. This is the hidden side of the Peacekeeper economy. Under the pretence of ‘technical apprenticeships’, local production chiefs throughout the Peacekeeper faction, desperate keep up to schedule, press Drone children into service in these hellish factories, often for weeks at a time. In spite of the vast strides that have been taken in industrial automation, many production chiefs still find it cheaper to employ children; they need not request resources for the construction of robots, and they don’t need to admit that they’re behind schedule.

What makes this even worse is that, under the Marxist program pushed through and maintained by the CCCP, and further strengthened by the Pandemoniak Social Engineering Decree of 2213, it is entirely legal. The decree authorizes special ‘hands-on training classes’ for children at the discretion of local authorities; in practise, this means that as long as no-one objects, any child in the education system can be conscripted into the workforce indefinitely. Although political realities mean that the children of Talents and Citizens are effectively immune to this treatment, those of Drones, who are usually unemployed and mostly unskilled, are fair game. With parents who are often unskilled and without influence in the vast bureaucracy that governs the UN, they are willing to take whatever they can get – and this is often all they can get. The children, and their parents, are afraid to speak out for fear that they will lose their jobs – which is quite often the only thing keeping them going. The bureaucracy often takes months to approve requests for support from those without influence, and many such requests from Drones are refused in any case, or are insufficient to properly support them.

This is the world of a Drone in Peacekeeper society, a society which claims to be founded upon equality. It is a world few see, a hidden stain upon the honour of the United Nations. For the sake of our conscience, the rights of our people, and our claim to represent freedom on this planet, the existence of such a world cannot be tolerated.

“The time has come when silence is betrayal,” said Martin Luther King, “That time is now.”

[Main_Brain]

.

[Hercules]

There were tears in my eyes as I watched that documentary. While I have influence to bring to bear, this will be raised at the highest levels. We need the output but from well paid skilled workers not the sons of drones.

This CNN documentary has done a service to the community.

[Drogue]

Interesting. I can assure all concerned that this does not happen, in the slightest, in Akiria. We support apprenticeships but slave labour, in these inhumane conditions, is unquestionably bad. Moreover, in Akiria, every child gets the same treatment. The offspring of talents get the same as the offspring of drones. Is this documentary based in Centralis? If it is I urge you most strongly to stop this barbaric practice. Simply because it is legal does not mean it should happen. I urge all Governors to make sure that this is ceases to exist immediatly.

[Maniac]

Is this documentary based in Centralis?

I thought the exact same thing. These practices do not happen in Jedinica Vrijstaat!! I am appaled this happens in Centralis. I first even thought this was a documentary about the Hive. And I thought your region would do at least better than that. May I therefore suggest you take action immediately?

Although political realities mean that the children of Talents and Citizens are effectively immune to this treatment, those of Drones, who are usually unemployed and mostly unskilled, are fair game. With parents who are often unskilled and without influence in the vast bureaucracy that governs the UN, they are willing to take whatever they can get – and this is often all they can get. The children, and their parents, are afraid to speak out for fear that they will lose their jobs – which is quite often the only thing keeping them going. The bureaucracy often takes months to approve requests for support from those without influence, and many such requests from Drones are refused in any case, or are insufficient to properly support them.

With a few word changes, this text could be used to show the drawbacks of Free Market, instead of Planned as you are trying to do. Let's try:

Although economical realities mean that the children of Talents and Citizens are effectively immune to this treatment, those of Drones, who are usually unemployed and mostly unskilled due to the lack of a government sponsored education system, are fair game. With parents who are often unskilled and without influence in the transfactional corporations that virtually rule the UN, they are willing to take whatever they can get – and this is often all they can get. The children, and their parents, are afraid to speak out for fear that they will lose their jobs – which is quite often the only thing keeping them going. Unfortunately labor unions are prohibited under this corporate dictatorship, so no action against these tragic situations can be taken. The bureaucracy often takes months to approve requests for support from those without influence, and many such requests from Drones are refused in any case, or are insufficient to properly support them, as the government recently cut its social security and welfare spending again.

[Drogue]

I was thinking of something along those lines too Maniac. Eloquently put I like the "Although political realities mean that the children of Talents and Citizens are effectively immune to this treatment" of the original, great imagination. However, I think we an equal democracy, as we have, it cannot happen. Planned makes no difference to 'political realities' IMHO, it is just an economic state.

[Kirov]

GT, you forgot to add that Planned followers actually eat small children.

[Method]

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
I can assure all concerned that this does not happen, in the slightest, in Akiria.

Originally posted by Maniac
These practices do not happen in Jedinica Vrijstaat!!

And you can be certain of this not happening behind your back how? They're already covering up the fact that they don't always reach quotas. Neither of you can be certain of this at all

Yes, I'm as appaled this happens in Centralis as anyone else, but I'm even more appaled that it happens in other regions too and that they're covering it up instead of bringing the issue to the fore as GT has. Even I at first thought this was a documentary about life in the Hive. This is beyond what even I would've accused Pan of supporting under his Marxist policies. But the fact of the matter is, this is what's happening.

Originally posted by Maniac
With a few word changes, this text could be used to show the drawbacks of Free Market, instead of Planned as you are trying to do. Let's try:

Although economical realities mean that the children of Talents and Citizens are effectively immune to this treatment, those of Drones, who are usually unemployed and mostly unskilled due to the lack of a government sponsored education system, are fair game. With parents who are often unskilled and without influence in the transfactional corporations that virtually rule the UN, they are willing to take whatever they can get - and this is often all they can get. The children, and their parents, are afraid to speak out for fear that they will lose their jobs - which is quite often the only thing keeping them going. Unfortunately labor unions are prohibited under this corporate dictatorship, so no action against these tragic situations can be taken. The bureaucracy often takes months to approve requests for support from those without influence, and many such requests from Drones are refused in any case, or are insufficient to properly support them, as the government recently cut its social security and welfare spending again.

*Cough* 20% Psych *Cough*
You seem to have conviently forgotten that no one's supporting a pure free market here.

lack of a government sponsored education system - Not with 20% Psych
transfactional corporations that virtually rule the UN - Strawman of Free Market
labor unions are prohibited under this corporate dictatorship - Not prohibited at all under 20% Psych or with a Democracy. Strawman of a free market
as the government recently cut its social security and welfare spending again - Under 20% Psych? No they wouldn't. And don't forget.....Planned economy's don't have any social security or welfare spending.

Originally posted by Drogue
I was thinking of something along those lines too Maniac. Eloquently put I like the "Although political realities mean that the children of Talents and Citizens are effectively immune to this treatment" of the original, great imagination. However, I think we an equal democracy, as we have, it cannot happen. Planned makes no difference to 'political realities' IMHO, it is just an economic state.

"You think" doesn't change the reality. Democracy's can be perverted, and in ours, corruption is rampant. Perhaps you didn't realise just how inefficient our bureaucracy is, thanks greatly to our very Planned Economy. Or perhaps, just perhaps, you're already aware of this. You doth protest too much. There is a conspiricy of lies and silence at work here gentlemen. Child Labour in your regions is a reality. Denying it's existance only makes you a party to it. Instead of helping the cover up, perhaps you should be like Herc here and start raising a ruckus, and clean up your regions. Of course, you do need to realise that what's happening *is* perfectly legal ATM....what are you going to do about it?

[Pandemoniak]

A documentary, produced by Josef Goebbels, directed by Leni Riefenstahl.

[GeneralTacticus]

Ah, the typical Pan response - 'I can't figure out a way to argue against it, so I'm just going to call the person who said it a Nazi and hope they go away.' If you want to debate the veracity or otherwise of the documentary, do so, but try to refrain from comparing everyone more than one millimetre to the right of you to a Nazi.

[Pandemoniak]

Have u seen the documentary of Leni Riefenstahl ?
Its actually exactly the same that the one you just did, with only little differences, since she made it in 1932 and this one is three hundreds years after. So this is a totally logic affirmation, it's just you should check out your sources before you show any holomaterial to an director of holofilms.

[GeneralTacticus]

No, I haven't seen it, I don't see why I would wish to, and I don't see what similarities there would be between the documentary presented a film which was supposedly the earlier version of Triumph of the Will,

As for the sources - this documentary was constructed from direct film and from film taken from the security camera records of the factories in question. I've been to those factories in person, and I can tell you that they do exist.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I've been to those factories in person, and I can tell you that they do exist.

Likewise here. I too have "walked with the Drones", and quite frankly, it's no suprise there's been Riots recently with us allowing this to occur.
This is happening in *every* base. They're hardly isolated incidents. Akiria, Centralis, Jedinica Vrijstaat, every region is plagued by this.
Hell, even in my own home base of Terminal Dogma, things like this occur. Even though this is a free trade area, a decree on Education still has its effect, and as much as I hate the law, I'm powerless to do anything at this point simply because it is the law. There is no legal way for me to stop or punish these people. Terminal Dogma is representative of only a pure free market, not a free market with psych spending. Just like in a Planned economy, there is simply no wellfare system here in place to provide a safety net for these children or their families so that they don't get in situation where they'd need to rely on it in the first place.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
No, I haven't seen it, I don't see why I would wish to, and I don't see what similarities there would be between the documentary presented a film which was supposedly the earlier version of Triumph of the Will,

Well, you should have, that would have prevent you to quote nazi propaganda. Know as well, that it is not simply an earlier version of TRiumph of the Will, this is also a rant against all the vertues of brotherhoodship and communalism incarnated in Riefensthal's perturbated mind by the USSR, not only an apology of nazism and cult of one person.

As for the sources - this documentary was constructed from direct film and from film taken from the security camera records of the factories in question. I've been to those factories in person, and I can tell you that they do exist.

This remains propaganda, and I never heard such an annoucement as "THE QUOTAS ...", except for gross jokes from UN Peacekeepers workers to Hivean immigrants and political refugees. But of course, when you record a joke and put it as an off voice on other images, this is stil documentaries images and sounds. Quite ****ed up actually, as an argument of truth.

Likewise here. I too have "walked with the Drones", and quite frankly, it's no suprise there's been Riots recently with us allowing this to occur.
This is happening in *every* base. They're hardly isolated incidents. Akiria, Centralis, Jedinica Vrijstaat, every region is plagued by this.

I repeat this is a faked documentary, and I have all the proofs needed. As for walking with the Drones, you must have confused : I walk with the Drones, while you wish to walk and climb over their dead bodies. And if you ever were to a riot, you'd know that this is not pro-FMs riots, but rather pro-Green riots, since the drones want to abolish the bureaucracy : it wasnt feasible before we discovered Centauri Empathy, but now that we can have a fair and humane economic policy, as your Director of Social Engineering, I'll do my best to promote what the drones want : Green Economics.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Archaic
*Cough* 20% Psych *Cough*
You seem to have conviently forgotten that no one's supporting a pure free market here.

You and GT seem to conveniently forget no one is supporting a Hive type of planned economy.

transfactional corporations that virtually rule the UN - Strawman of Free Market

Of course it is. But GT's original text is just as big a strawman distortion. Are you suffering from selective blindness? Just like there were and are totalitarian planned systems like the Soviet Union and the Human Hive, there are also democratic systems like that of the UN, where the situations descibed above do not happen. Just like there were democratic free market systems, there were and are also corporate dictatorships like now the Morganite state (doesn't it strike you odd his political party has ruled without a stop since 2101?) and in the early 21th century Berlusconi Italy and to a lesser degree the United Rogue States of America, countries where there was no strong independent government as a counterweight to the power of the corporations.

And don't forget.....Planned economy's don't have any social security or welfare spending.

Where did you get that idea? Strawman.

[GeneralTacticus]

Well, you should have, that would have prevent you to quote nazi propaganda. Know as well, that it is not simply an earlier version of TRiumph of the Will, this is also a rant against all the vertues of brotherhoodship and communalism incarnated in Riefensthal's perturbated mind by the USSR, not only an apology of nazism and cult of one person.

Why the hell would I want to quote Nazi propaganda?

This remains propaganda, and I never heard such an annoucement as "THE QUOTAS ...", except for gross jokes from UN Peacekeepers workers to Hivean immigrants and political refugees. But of course, when you record a joke and put it as an off voice on other images, this is stil documentaries images and sounds. Quite ****ed up actually, as an argument of truth.

Maybe you should try going to one of those factories sometime then. I take it you never have, because you continue to deny their existence.

I repeat this is a faked documentary, and I have all the proofs needed.

You have no proof except your own desire for that to be the truth.

As for walking with the Drones, you must have confused : I walk with the Drones, while you wish to walk and climb over their dead bodies.

Then explain why you persist in denying that your system is oppressing them.

And if you ever were to a riot, you'd know that this is not pro-FMs riots,

Do you ahve a single scrap of proof for that other than your own preconceptions of what they should want? No.

but rather pro-Green riots, since the drones want to abolish the bureaucracy : it wasnt feasible before we discovered Centauri Empathy,

It's been feasible since we discovered Industrial Economics, but of course you wouldn't want us to know that, because it contradicts your own ideology.

but now that we can have a fair and humane economic policy, as your Director of Social Engineering, I'll do my best to promote what the drones want : Green Economics

Once again, do you ahve a single piece of evidence that the Drones want? The number of Drones won't increase a bit if we go FM, while the number of Talents will skyrocket.

You and GT seem to conveniently forget no one is supporting a Hive type of planned economy.

Nobody said you were. But it doesn't have to be the Hive for things like this to happen. They happen in the US and many other places in the West, too.

Of course it is. But GT's original text is just as big a strawman distortion. Are you suffering from selective blindness? Just like there were and are totalitarian planned systems like the Soviet Union and the Human Hive, there are also democratic systems like that of the UN, where the situations descibed above do not happen.

Are you going to claim that there was no such thing as 'sweatshop labour' in the US and elsewhere? Theyw ere supposed to be democracies as well, yet things like that still happen.

Just like there were democratic free market systems, there were and are also corporate dictatorships like now the Morganite state (doesn't it strike you odd his political party has ruled without a stop since 2101?)

Not particularly, unless it strikes you as odd that no-one ever voted me, you, TKG, or Lemmy out of office.

Where did you get that idea?

The fact that we ahve no Psych spending, which is effectively what represents welfare, and that there's nothing about Planned which makes it any more likely that we have welfare than FM.

[Maniac]

Once again, do you ahve a single piece of evidence that the Drones want? The number of Drones won't increase a bit if we go FM, while the number of Talents will skyrocket.

This seems to me a clear case of Confusing Cause and Effect and Questionable Cause. (Don't you just LOVE Archaic's debating techniques? ) You seem to assume going free markets is the cause of an increase in talents, while it is actually an increase in psych and wellfare spending which causes an increase in talents. If we now, under Planned, would increase our psych&soc spending, we would also see an increase in talents. And I doubt, when taking away the factor of wellfare spending, free markets don't cause any more drones. As gametechnically speaking FM has -5 police, the drone numbers would tremendously increase.

Nobody said you were [supporting a Hive-like planned economy]. But it doesn't have to be the Hive for things like this to happen. They happen in the US and many other places in the West, too.

Are you going to claim that there was no such thing as 'sweatshop labour' in the US and elsewhere? Theyw ere supposed to be democracies as well, yet things like that still happen.

I don't understand what you're trying to prove with this. You seem to give arguments against the case I presumed you were promoting: claiming that child labour happens under our current planned system and therefore we have to go FM (which would be a False Dilemma by the way). Was I wrong when guessing your intentions?

First you admit the following sweatshop labour practices:...

A sweatshop is a factory where workers are froced to work with low wages, no benifits, long hours, cramped and unsanitary conditions. Many companies who use sweatshops prefer to use children so they can pay even less or nothing at all. Most sweatshop labourers don't even get paid enough to survive on. Thousands each year die from exhaustion caused by over work(12+ hours per day,7 days a week), injury from machinery, abuse by factory management, and sickness due to unsanitary conditions. Children are the majority of these people who are dieing due to this immoral exploitation of workers.
Unions are not allowed and whenever one is formed it is destroyed by union busters(most of the time local thugs and criminals)hired by the companies. Since unions can't be formed the workers can't get better wages, benifits, or rights. Any organization put together by the workers will be immeadetly destroyed at once. These people are basicly slaves, they are scared into staying, they are paid very, very low wages or nothing at all, and are denied basic benifits and worker's rights(in some cases human rights too). Some factory management rape, abuse, and assault the wokers putting a since of fear in them so they don't leave and stay despite the abuse.

...not only happen under a planned system, but also in the twenty-first century United Rogue States. You are of course correct thinking so. And, though certain libertarians may claim otherwise, the URSA is a good example of a "Free Market", certainly when compared to Europe where there is a stronger government and more rules and regulations.

Secondly you say the sweatshop practices also happen in (supposed) democracies like the URS just like they happen in a totalitarian state such as the Hive. You are of course also correct here. But what is your point here? Why did you post this documentary in the first place? Are you truly interested in abolishing these sweatshop practices, and did you not have hidden intentions like making us more free market or democratic? Or is this just an honest "tactical blunder" in this debate? Or is it an intentional Red Herring? I can hardly believe the last one. So what is it then?

Not particularly, unless it strikes you as odd that no-one ever voted me, you, TKG, or Lemmy out of office.

Well actually Pandemoniak beat me in the first elections with a landslide.

But anyway: yes, when you look at it from that point of view, we are just as undemocratic as Morgan. Or are you perhaps trying to say:
A: the UN is democratic
B: the UN hasn't had many government changes
C: Morgan hasn't had any government changes
=> Morgan is democratic as well.
Unfortunately I didn't immediately find a fallacy for this sofism, despite being one of the most frequent.

I'd say assumption A is wrong. We have too little politicians and due to our current voluntary voting system few people vote, so our government can hardly be called a democratic representation of the entire people. Compulsory voting would solve this IRL (we have already debated this issue, so let's not do so again), but that's kind of nonsense in a democracy game... (Although if we would ask everyone who has voted in the next elections to post a "I have voted" message, we could get a clear picture how many of our 50+ citizens actually participate)

The fact that we ahve no Psych spending, which is effectively what represents welfare, and that there's nothing about Planned which makes it any more likely that we have welfare than FM.

Yes, but neither is there anything about Planned *in general* which makes it any less likely to have wel(l?)fare as in FM.
You and Archaic seem to make the following mistake in your reasoning:
A: We have a planned economy
B: We don't have (in game terms) much psych/wellfare spending (we do have doctors and psych facilities)
C: Therefore planned economies don't have any wellfare spending.

This seems to me like an obvious Strawman and a Hasty Generalization.

The reason why we currently don't have 10 or 20% of our income dedicated to psych is because in the in-game planned system, there is no need for it. But if you and Archaic insist on claiming that FM leads to more talents, I'm sure I and several others would be willing to increase our psych spending in our current planned system. It would be utterly useless gametechnically speaking, but while roleplaying it would make perfect sense. And because many of our leftish citizens don't care much about winning as fast as possible unlike you and Archaic, we just might decide to organize a poll and raise the psych spending if you don't stop with giving false arguments such as this one in favour of FM.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Archaic
And you can be certain of this not happening behind your back how? They're already covering up the fact that they don't always reach quotas. Neither of you can be certain of this at all

Yes, I'm as appaled this happens in Centralis as anyone else, but I'm even more appaled that it happens in other regions too and that they're covering it up instead of bringing the issue to the fore as GT has. Even I at first thought this was a documentary about life in the Hive. This is beyond what even I would've accused Pan of supporting under his Marxist policies. But the fact of the matter is, this is what's happening.

No it is not. GT has provided no evidence, let alone proof, of such an allegation. We do not have quotas like that, yes we have a devolved system, but a system with strong worker rights. We do not want the autonomy of the Hive, in Akiria we try to devolve power to the lowest level. We have not brought this up, simply because it does not exist. We do not even have quotas, if someone is not suited to that job, and is not being productive, then they are transferred, to something more suitable. Yes people work relatively hard, but not to strictly enforced quotas. I pride myself on the attitude of the workers in Akiria, and know of no legislation making hat happen. It helps nobody. We wish happiness, not slave labour.

Originally posted by Archaic
"You think" doesn't change the reality. Democracy's can be perverted, and in ours, corruption is rampant. Perhaps you didn't realise just how inefficient our bureaucracy is, thanks greatly to our very Planned Economy. Or perhaps, just perhaps, you're already aware of this. You doth protest too much. There is a conspiricy of lies and silence at work here gentlemen. Child Labour in your regions is a reality. Denying it's existance only makes you a party to it. Instead of helping the cover up, perhaps you should be like Herc here and start raising a ruckus, and clean up your regions. Of course, you do need to realise that what's happening *is* perfectly legal ATM....what are you going to do about it?

We never started. I administer it personally, and simply because it is legal (if indeed that isn't a misrepresentation of Pande's law, as I believe) does not mean that it happens. I have appointed, or elected, depending on position, people who disagree with this. Social liberty is important to me, and thus Akiria is governed as such. Devolvement is also important, for efficiency, and humanitarian reasons. This does not happen in Akiria. It is that simple. I have inspected many factories, and production facilities, and I can assure you all that none employ this sort of work. this is merely anecdotal evidence, that at one place, it happens, and is hardly unbiased. I believe it to be in Centralis, as that is there the filmmaker is based, and where we have most mineral output. Maybe that is how they are so far ahead mineral wise? However, in Akiria, we condemn any such behavior, or restrictions. The happier the worker, the more productive, and as I have said before, I will not sacrafice happiness for increased production.

I will start a ruckus, be we have nothing to clear up. I will help Centralis to clear it up however, if it needs help. I support Herc's postion, and will help any peacekeeper who needs it, in clearing up this mess, but we in Akiria have nothing to clear up. We would not sanction this barbaric practice. We are peacekeepers

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Maniac


This seems to me a clear case of Confusing Cause and Effect and Questionable Cause. (Don't you just LOVE Archaic's debating techniques? )

[Pandemoniak]

I finally could copy/paste the factory you're talking about... Its not in UN Peacekeeper territory.

[Maniac]

No response from GT or Archaic in two days. I think we can safely assume we have won this argument.

[Drogue]

I agree

[Archaic]

You assume wrongly. We both use Telstra Bigpond Broadband Cable as our ISP, and that's been down for the past day and a half, leaving us with no internet. The day before, I was upgrading to XP. And since GT has high school again starting from tomorrow....

You'll have your reply from me tomorrow afternoon. (It's 11:47pm here, and I'm not typing a rebuttal that long this late.)

[GeneralTacticus]

Has it been down? I wouldn't know; I haven't posted anywhere for the last few days because I haven't been here.

[Drogue]

Sorry, I meant it as a joke

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Maniac
This seems to me a clear case of Confusing Cause and Effect and Questionable Cause. (Don't you just LOVE Archaic's debating techniques? ) You seem to assume going free markets is the cause of an increase in talents, while it is actually an increase in psych and wellfare spending which causes an increase in talents. If we now, under Planned, would increase our psych&soc spending, we would also see an increase in talents. And I doubt, when taking away the factor of wellfare spending, free markets don't cause any more drones. As gametechnically speaking FM has -5 police, the drone numbers would tremendously increase.

Seems to be a case of ignoring cause and effect on your side actually.

Increase in talents
Caused by: Increase in Psych & Welfare spending (From 0% to 20% of budget)

Increase in Psych & Welfare spending (From 0% to 20% of budget)
Made possible by: Increased budget from the change to a Free Market


Would we see an increase in talents if we increases our Psych spending under Planned? Yes. But how many? Not as many as we'd have under FM.

I won't say welfare, since afterall "To each their own according to their needs". Assuming the economy is strong enough to provide that much cash, and the government wasn't corrupt, they'd be recieving all the money they need from their wages. And yes, with the "equal obligation to work" part of Marxism, they're all working. There isn't unemployment. Though if I were you, I'd look over my economic theory again. Full Enployment =/= 0% Unemployment. We're actually in a state of overemployment ATM. Oh yes, and there's no job mobility either.

Originally posted by Maniac
claiming that child labour happens under our current planned system and therefore we have to go FM (which would be a False Dilemma by the way).

Find me one place here where GT or myself claimed that we had to go FM because of the child labour that DOES happen under our current planned system. Don't put words in our mouths Maniac. We *did* make a few statements about how FM will probably be better, but as I recall, YOU were the one who first brought up FM, making a strawman of the system anyone here has promoted with your twisting of the Documentary.

Originally posted by Maniac
...not only happen under a planned system, but also in the twenty-first century United Rogue States. You are of course correct thinking so. And, though certain libertarians may claim otherwise, the URSA is a good example of a "Free Market", certainly when compared to Europe where there is a stronger government and more rules and regulations.

Bullshit. The USA was nowhere near to being a Free Market (Or a Democracy for that matter. They were a Republic.). Just look at all the bloody trade barriers they had there. Besides Tariffs, there's the VER's (Such as those between them and Japan on Cars). You want good example of a Free Market? Australia around the start of the 21st century.

Originally posted by Maniac
Secondly you say the sweatshop practices also happen in (supposed) democracies like the URS just like they happen in a totalitarian state such as the Hive. You are of course also correct here. But what is your point here? Why did you post this documentary in the first place? Are you truly interested in abolishing these sweatshop practices, and did you not have hidden intentions like making us more free market or democratic? Or is this just an honest "tactical blunder" in this debate? Or is it an intentional Red Herring? I can hardly believe the last one. So what is it then?

It's just a simple statement of fact. We're pointing out that our political structure isn't what's at fault here, but the economic structure. Our Planned economy is too inefficient, and supports corruption. It can't support the levels of spending we need to put into psych and welfare. (And it couldn't put any into welfare without admitting there's problems with its system in the first place.)

Originally posted by Maniac
But anyway: yes, when you look at it from that point of view, we are just as undemocratic as Morgan. Or are you perhaps trying to say:
A: the UN is democratic
B: the UN hasn't had many government changes
C: Morgan hasn't had any government changes
=> Morgan is democratic as well.
Unfortunately I didn't immediately find a fallacy for this sofism, despite being one of the most frequent.

I'd say assumption A is wrong. We have too little politicians and due to our current voluntary voting system few people vote, so our government can hardly be called a democratic representation of the entire people. Compulsory voting would solve this IRL (we have already debated this issue, so let's not do so again), but that's kind of nonsense in a democracy game... (Although if we would ask everyone who has voted in the next elections to post a "I have voted" message, we could get a clear picture how many of our 50+ citizens actually participate)

And complusory voting allows people to express their view of "I don't give a damn" how?

Assumption A is correct. The fact that people keep getting voted in is mainly due to high approval ratings, lack of competition (If no one else wants the job, it's not as if there's many options), or people not giving a damn about who's elected.

Originally posted by Maniac
Yes, but neither is there anything about Planned *in general* which makes it any less likely to have wel(l?)fare as in FM.
You and Archaic seem to make the following mistake in your reasoning:
A: We have a planned economy
B: We don't have (in game terms) much psych/wellfare spending (we do have doctors and psych facilities)
C: Therefore planned economies don't have any wellfare spending.

This seems to me like an obvious Strawman and a Hasty Generalization.

Yup, an obvious Strawman and a Hasty Generalization. Of GT and Mine's position.

Why are Planned Economy's less likely to have welfare spending? Because every citizen should be getting everything they need in their pay packet in a Planned Economy. "To each their own according to their needs", or however the saying goes.

Here's our real reasoning.

A: We have a planned economy
B: We don't have (in game terms) psych/wellfare spending allocated from the main budget (though we do have doctors and psych facilities)
C: Our Planned economy can't support the levels of Psych spending we need thanks to its inbuilt inefficiency without making the economy implode.
D: Welfare spending in non-existant in an IRL Planned economy, as every citizen is (supposedly) getting everything they're supposed to need anyway.
E: Therefore a Planned economy in this game can't reasonably have any psych spending.

Originally posted by Maniac
The reason why we currently don't have 10 or 20% of our income dedicated to psych is because in the in-game planned system, there is no need for it. But if you and Archaic insist on claiming that FM leads to more talents, I'm sure I and several others would be willing to increase our psych spending in our current planned system. It would be utterly useless gametechnically speaking, but while roleplaying it would make perfect sense. And because many of our leftish citizens don't care much about winning as fast as possible unlike you and Archaic, we just might decide to organize a poll and raise the psych spending if you don't stop with giving false arguments such as this one in favour of FM.

FM w/ 20% Psych leads to more talents than Planned w/ 40% Psych.

False arguement? Bullshit. You're just covering your ears and screaming "There's no child labour in my region", when the video documentary that just played there (Pan's post was just the voiceover of that video. RP people. ) clearly showed there was.

Originally posted by Drogue
No it is not. GT has provided no evidence, let alone proof, of such an allegation. We do not have quotas like that, yes we have a devolved system, but a system with strong worker rights. We do not want the autonomy of the Hive, in Akiria we try to devolve power to the lowest level. We have not brought this up, simply because it does not exist. We do not even have quotas, if someone is not suited to that job, and is not being productive, then they are transferred, to something more suitable. Yes people work relatively hard, but not to strictly enforced quotas. I pride myself on the attitude of the workers in Akiria, and know of no legislation making hat happen. It helps nobody. We wish happiness, not slave labour.

Really? He hasn't now? I would've thought those videos of the factories there (Represented by GT's original post) are quite a big load of evidence, wouldn't you? You yelling "It doesn't happen! It doesn't happen!" is just making you a part of the web of lies surrounding this. Do you just want to bury this to protect your political position?

Originally posted by Drogue
We never started. I administer it personally, and simply because it is legal (if indeed that isn't a misrepresentation of Pande's law, as I believe) does not mean that it happens. I have appointed, or elected, depending on position, people who disagree with this. Social liberty is important to me, and thus Akiria is governed as such. Devolvement is also important, for efficiency, and humanitarian reasons. This does not happen in Akiria. It is that simple. I have inspected many factories, and production facilities, and I can assure you all that none employ this sort of work. this is merely anecdotal evidence, that at one place, it happens, and is hardly unbiased. I believe it to be in Centralis, as that is there the filmmaker is based, and where we have most mineral output. Maybe that is how they are so far ahead mineral wise? However, in Akiria, we condemn any such behavior, or restrictions. The happier the worker, the more productive, and as I have said before, I will not sacrafice happiness for increased production.

Again, the videos taken by CNN prove otherwise. Your words are hollow when the video evidence proves that these factories exist in every region. Even if these people were twisting the spirit of Pan's law, what they are doing is still perfectly legal. You're not doing anything about it at the moment except to try and pretend it's not happening. It's already been established that it is, so perhaps you should go do something about it?

Originally posted by Drogue
I will start a ruckus, be we have nothing to clear up. I will help Centralis to clear it up however, if it needs help. I support Herc's postion, and will help any peacekeeper who needs it, in clearing up this mess, but we in Akiria have nothing to clear up. We would not sanction this barbaric practice. We are peacekeepers

You sanction it by your own silence on the issue of it happening within your own region.

[GeneralTacticus]

And just to expand on a few of Archaic's points, and address a few he hasn't answered:

This seems to me a clear case of Confusing Cause and Effect and Questionable Cause. (Don't you just LOVE Archaic's debating techniques? ) You seem to assume going free markets is the cause of an increase in talents, while it is actually an increase in psych and wellfare spending which causes an increase in talents. If we now, under Planned, would increase our psych&soc spending, we would also see an increase in talents. And I doubt, when taking away the factor of wellfare spending, free markets don't cause any more drones. As gametechnically speaking FM has -5 police, the drone numbers would tremendously increase.

And that would be because why? Because we stop employing military police against them, and becaus they now ahve outlet for their discontent at our military deplyments overseas.

Moreover, Psych spending under Planned or Green would *NOT* have the same effect, because there would necessarily be less spent.

I don't understand what you're trying to prove with this. You seem to give arguments against the case I presumed you were promoting: claiming that child labour happens under our current planned system and therefore we have to go FM (which would be a False Dilemma by the way). Was I wrong when guessing your intentions?

Yes, you were wrong. My intention here was not to say that we have to go FM now (although of course I do believe that, but that's antoher matter entirely). My intention was to draw attention to the simple fact that this is happening.

...not only happen under a planned system, but also in the twenty-first century United Rogue States. You are of course correct thinking so. And, though certain libertarians may claim otherwise, the URSA is a good example of a "Free Market", certainly when compared to Europe where there is a stronger government and more rules and regulations.

I'd hardly refer to an environment in which those at the top could make the rules tos uit themselves at the expense of those at the bottom as a 'Free Market'.

I have inspected many factories, and production facilities, and I can assure you all that none employ this sort of work.

Given that these factories don't even officially exist, how would you know if they exist in reality by inspecting official ones?

The happier the worker, the more productive, and as I have said before, I will not sacrafice happiness for increased production.

Nobody claimed, before, that you were responsible for this; I published this documentary because I expected people to actually sit up, take notice, and do soemthing about it. Instead, what we have is a rain of denials and claims that the film has been faked. This sounds eerily similar to the reaction of governemnts on Old Earth to anyone point out inconvenient facts - is there a connection?

I finally could copy/paste the factory you're talking about... Its not in UN Peacekeeper territory.

A single fuzzy image of a factory of indeterminate location proves nothing, especially when there is nothing that identifies it as any of the factories we examined.

[Maniac]

Increase in talents
Caused by: Increase in Psych & Welfare spending (From 0% to 20% of budget)

Thank you for proving my point... An increase in talents is not the direct and inevitable consequence of FM.

Would we see an increase in talents if we increases our Psych spending under Planned? Yes. But how many? Not as many as we'd have under FM. I won't say welfare

Ok, so planned has less "talents", whatever is your definition of those, but more welfare. I can certainly live with that, RP speaking...

Find me one place here where GT or myself claimed that we had to go FM because of the child labour that DOES happen under our current planned system. Don't put words in our mouths Maniac.

Don't play the holy saint here.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...6&pagenumber=1
Besides, seeing the history of you and GT, it isn't necessary to say things loud and clear to guess your true motives.

Bullshit. The USA was nowhere near to being a Free Market. Just look at all the bloody trade barriers they had there.

You are confusing free market with protectionism. Countries can be both free market in the own country and protectionist to other countries at the same time.

(Or a Democracy for that matter. They were a Republic.).

Are you kidding or don't you have decent dictionaries in your country? A republic is a non-monarchial state, or a state with a president elected. Countries can be both democratic and republican at the same time.
What are you trying to prove btw by telling that the URSA isn't a democracy and a FM? A simple red herring or that the USA is planned and as a consequence it isn't surprising child labour happens there?

It's just a simple statement of fact. We're pointing out that our political structure isn't what's at fault here, but the economic structure.

So you're pointing the finger at Planned? Unless you are someone who jells at problems but doesn't provide a solution, this means, seeing your past history, that you are (ab)using this matter to increase support for FM. Again, drop the holy saint act.

(And it couldn't put any into welfare without admitting there's problems with its system in the first place.)

What's that kind of nonsense? Many libertarians claim that in a free market wealth will siffle through to the bottom; that the "Invisible Hand" will after a while automatically lead to welfare for everyone; and more of that... Then one could also say putting money into welfare in a FM is also admitting there are problems with the system.

And complusory voting allows people to express their view of "I don't give a damn" how?

If you would bother to think about that for just a minute, you would see the obvious answer: by writing "I don't give a damn" on their voting form. What do you think? That in Belgium, a country with compulsory voting, someone is looking over the shoulder to check you aren't voting blanco or writing some oscene stuff on your voting form?

Assumption A is correct. The fact that people keep getting voted in is mainly due to high approval ratings,

If I controlled all the media, I could get high approval ratings as well...

lack of competition (If no one else wants the job, it's not as if there's many options),

Newcomers don't get a chance when the current power elite controls all the media. Who knows, infamous evil guys like Lemmy might even threaten to send their undead army at any potential competitor.

or people not giving a damn about who's elected.

Well if people don't care, then you can hardly call it a democracy: "government by the people".

Why are Planned Economy's less likely to have welfare spending? Because every citizen should be getting everything they need in their pay packet in a Planned Economy.

Do you already have to go to the level of semantics to prove your right? Welfare is in the pay packet of a planned economy; so there is welfare spending in a planned economy...

E: Therefore a Planned economy in this game can't reasonably have any psych spending.

Though I have questions by the way you reached that conclusion (Your whole position you made up regarding welfare in your last post sounds rather sofistic btw), I can live with the conclusion itself. You are essentially saying that the fact that in-game there will be more talents under FM doesn't mean people are happier, more welfaring and all that under FM, as welfare and happiness is already included standard under planned.

And that would be because why? Because we stop employing military police against them, and becaus they now ahve outlet for their discontent at our military deplyments overseas.

You have said yourself in another thread that a police penalty fits more with democratic than FM. It isn't really fair then in a RP situation to use the wrong-given -5 police for FM and as a consequence the wrongly-implied heavy police use under planned.

Yes, you were wrong. My intention here was not to say that we have to go FM now (although of course I do believe that, but that's antoher matter entirely). My intention was to draw attention to the simple fact that this is happening.

If that would really be so, my answer to you is: "I will further investigate the situation in Jedinica Vrijstaat." And that should settle the discussion no? No arguments about whether or not FM or planned is better.

I'd hardly refer to an environment in which those at the top could make the rules tos uit themselves at the expense of those at the bottom as a 'Free Market'.

Sure you can call it a free market, just a dictatorial free market. You are confusing economic and political liberties.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Maniac
Thank you for proving my point... An increase in talents is not the direct and inevitable consequence of FM.

"An increase in talents is not the direct and inevitable consequence of FM." was not your point. What you said was to the effect of "FM is not the only potential cause behind an increase in talents".

In any case, in game terms, the direct and inevitable consequence of FM with 20% Psych IS an increase in talents. And more so than under any of the other economic systems.

Originally posted by Maniac
Ok, so planned has less "talents", whatever is your definition of those, but more welfare. I can certainly live with that, RP speaking...

Planned has no welfare, as I stated in my post. And due to its corruption, it cannot have as many talents. As for my definition of "talents"....that's beside the point. What you or I personally might define them as is irrelevant. What the statistics define them is. And the statistics clearly prove my position.

Originally posted by Maniac
Don't play the holy saint here.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...76&pagenumber=1
Besides, seeing the history of you and GT, it isn't necessary to say things loud and clear to guess your true motives.

*Yawn* Your point? Our motives are beside the point. We didn't push the FM issue in this thread. YOU brought it up.

Originally posted by Maniac
You are confusing free market with protectionism. Countries can be both free market in the own country and protectionist to other countries at the same time.

Bullshit. A free market is not protectionist. By imposing trade barriers you work against the forces of supply and demand by limiting the price and/or volume of imported goods.

Originally posted by Maniac
Are you kidding or don't you have decent dictionaries in your country? A republic is a non-monarchial state, or a state with a president elected. Countries can be both democratic and republican at the same time.
What are you trying to prove btw by telling that the URSA isn't a democracy and a FM? A simple red herring or that the USA is planned and as a consequence it isn't surprising child labour happens there?

I'm just working off the proper academic definitions. I see you aren't. Lay dictionaries are.....unreliable. Just look up Athiest. A country can have free elections without being a democracy you realise. Unless the voters directly elect their head of state, then it is not a democracy. It is a Republic.
My comment about the US's political system was only a side note in any case. My main point is that it's not a free market. I never said it's planned. Now stop putting words in my mouth.
Like I've said, the style of the economy isn't the primary influence behind child labour. It can happen in a Planned Economy, in a Green Economy, or in a Free Market. It's the level of corruption, and the level of welfare that are the primary factors here.

Originally posted by Maniac
So you're pointing the finger at Planned? Unless you are someone who jells at problems but doesn't provide a solution, this means, seeing your past history, that you are (ab)using this matter to increase support for FM. Again, drop the holy saint act.

I never had a holy saint act to begin with. I was simply stating a fact. I didn't push the FM agenda in this thread until you blasted it with your strawman, and neither did GT.

What I'm pointing my finger at is the corruption in our government, largely due to our centralised economy. Yes, I do believe that FM is a much better alternative, but I didn't force that onto you here, did I? The purpose of the thread was to make you THINK.

Originally posted by Maniac
What's that kind of nonsense? Many libertarians claim that in a free market wealth will siffle through to the bottom; that the "Invisible Hand" will after a while automatically lead to welfare for everyone; and more of that... Then one could also say putting money into welfare in a FM is also admitting there are problems with the system.

That's a different kindn of welfare and you damn well know it. Stop splitting hairs. Yes, I believe no welfare spending is better than welfare spending, but I'm also a realist. It takes time to adjust society in such a way that it weans itself off the government teat. Are the problems with the FM system? **** YES!!! But is it the BEST DAMN SYSTEM WE HAVE? Yes.

As for your sarcasm towards FM.....I suggest you start reading more of the theory and stop rejecting it instantly because it's more right wing than you are.

Originally posted by Maniac
If you would bother to think about that for just a minute, you would see the obvious answer: by writing "I don't give a damn" on their voting form. What do you think? That in Belgium, a country with compulsory voting, someone is looking over the shoulder to check you aren't voting blanco or writing some oscene stuff on your voting form?

1) Do you realise how many countries with compulsory voting make such "donkey votes" a crime? All of them.
2) Why force the people to vote then and waste their time, and the time of the people who have to count the votes? Oh, and paper.

Originally posted by Maniac
If I controlled all the media, I could get high approval ratings as well...

We're a Planned Economy. The Government has an industry monopoly on the media. Morgan is a Free Market. While there is a government owned station, Private Enterprise is encouraged, and there are many many more networks there outside of the state's control. If anyone's tampering with the media, it's the Peacekeepers. And what's it been used for? To prevent the news of this getting out earlier perhaps?

Originally posted by Maniac
Newcomers don't get a chance when the current power elite controls all the media. Who knows, infamous evil guys like Lemmy might even threaten to send their undead army at any potential competitor.

Yup. You're describing the Peacekeepers ATM, not Morgan...

Originally posted by Maniac
Well if people don't care, then you can hardly call it a democracy: "government by the people".

Yes you can. Their contribution to government is "I'll vote when I feel strongly about the issue, but otherwise, I wave my right to vote".

Originally posted by Maniac
Do you already have to go to the level of semantics to prove your right? Welfare is in the pay packet of a planned economy; so there is welfare spending in a planned economy...

When everyone's recieving the same wage (Because everyone has the same basic needs, right?), how is this welfare? The only one I see playing semantic games here is you, by trying and twisting my words and meanings.

Originally posted by Maniac
Though I have questions by the way you reached that conclusion (Your whole position you made up regarding welfare in your last post sounds rather sofistic btw), I can live with the conclusion itself. You are essentially saying that the fact that in-game there will be more talents under FM doesn't mean people are happier, more welfaring and all that under FM, as welfare and happiness is already included standard under planned.

That's not what I'm saying at all, and you know it. Stop twisting my words. You can't even come to that conclusion from what I said there. Are you going to stop with these strawman distortions anytime soon?

Statistics prove otherwise. Goods intentions are bunk if what you're doing isn't having that effect. The FM makes people far happier and better off than Planned. That's a proven fact by statistical evidence of our society, provided in the SE election thread if you want to look it over. Live with it.

Originally posted by Maniac
You have said yourself in another thread that a police penalty fits more with democratic than FM. It isn't really fair then in a RP situation to use the wrong-given -5 police for FM and as a consequence the wrongly-implied heavy police use under planned.

I do not recall this, however, that's an Ad Hominem Tu Quoque. I stick by what myself, GT and Cedayon have said in the past few days, not some ancient quote of a position I no longer feel is correct.

And there is no "wrongly-implied heavy police use under planned". There's quite a good justification for it.
The simple fact of the matter is that Planned (And Green) allows for the use of Military units as police. Military units who don't all have training in Non-Lethal Methods as I recall.

Originally posted by Maniac
If that would really be so, my answer to you is: "I will further investigate the situation in Jedinica Vrijstaat." And that should settle the discussion no? No arguments about whether or not FM or planned is better.

Then investigate it. And then tell me what will solve this problem best.

Originally posted by Maniac
Sure you can call it a free market, just a dictatorial free market. You are confusing economic and political liberties.

He's not confusing it at all. In this case, the infringement on political liberties because of heavy political corruption which then impacts on both the economic system and economic liberties. It's not a fault of the economic system itself. When economic liberties are infringed upon, that is no longer a proper free market.