CNN Special Documentary - Page 2

Pandemoniak · January 28, 2003, 12:17

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A single fuzzy image of a factory of indeterminate location proves nothing, especially when there is nothing that identifies it as any of the factories we examined.

Well, the image is taken from your documentary, and it is not one of our factories. This is quite clear.

Drogue · January 28, 2003, 13:52

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Originally posted by Archaic
DOES happen under our current planned system.

Evidence? Such an allegation, with a hasty documentary to support it, that is not ratified, and all Governors have said that it is nothing in their region.

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Originally posted by Archaic
Our Planned economy... supports corruption.

How? Inefficient yes. Corrupt, not unless we are. We are the rulers, the controllers, if we are not corrupt, then there is no corruption.

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Originally posted by Archaic
False arguement? Bullshit. You're just covering your ears and screaming "There's no child labour in my region", when the video documentary that just played there (Pan's post was just the voiceover of that video. RP people.

) clearly showed there was.

Really? He hasn't now? I would've thought those videos of the factories there (Represented by GT's original post) are quite a big load of evidence, wouldn't you? You yelling "It doesn't happen! It doesn't happen!" is just making you a part of the web of lies surrounding this. Do you just want to bury this to protect your political position?

Again, the videos taken by CNN prove otherwise. Your words are hollow when the video evidence proves that these factories exist in every region. Even if these people were twisting the spirit of Pan's law, what they are doing is still perfectly legal. You're not doing anything about it at the moment except to try and pretend it's not happening. It's already been established that it is, so perhaps you should go do something about it?

We have none of that in Akiria. GT's documentary, at beast shows that there is somewhere in our nation, most probably in Centralis, considering it has the largest facortories, and is the most accessable place by the Governor, GT. We do not want to bury it. We want to find out who is responsible, and fire them. But as I said, this does not happen in Akiria. And RP isn't just accepting everything put in front of you. We are RPing, I am wquestioning both the validity, the impartiality (being posed by one of the Governors) and the location of the documentary. I do not believe it is true. It certainly does not exist in Akiria, which is all I can say with certainty, but I do not believe it happens elsewhere. I suspect we shall find it to be a forgery. trial by media is very flawed. I do not think that documentary, even if it is not a forgery, shows a balanced picture. Web of lies? It doesn't exist, just like the factories.

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Originally posted by Archaic
You sanction it by your own silence on the issue of it happening within your own region.

It does not exist to say anything about. I have condemed it however, so I am hardly silent, but I have nothing to change.

Drogue · January 28, 2003, 14:00

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Given that these factories don't even officially exist, how would you know if they exist in reality by inspecting official ones?

I know of all factories in Akiria. I am overall responsible for my region. Do you think I would not know if they existed? Where would they be put, that they haven't been noticed. Moreover, I am the DEI, I can tell you that I am aware of practically everything, I have intelligence teams that relay information to me constantly. If they were in Akiria, I would know about them.

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Nobody claimed, before, that you were responsible for this; I published this documentary because I expected people to actually sit up, take notice, and do soemthing about it. Instead, what we have is a rain of denials and claims that the film has been faked. This sounds eerily similar to the reaction of governemnts on Old Earth to anyone point out inconvenient facts - is there a connection?

It is also how they react to false information, especially when said by a political opponent. That film was propaganda, pure and simple. If it exists in Akiria, I would know about it. If it exists in most other regions I would too. Since I don't, either it is in another region, and very well hidden, or it is outside of Peacekeeper terratories. I know that happens in the hive, my probe teams have informed me. However, you just have to look at the delegation in our factories, of the efficiency of Deirdre's facilities, to see the cure. Are we meant to believe everything that a rival tells us? I dispute the validity of that film, as I have mentioned in respone to Archaic's post.

Drogue · January 28, 2003, 14:07

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Originally posted by Archaic
Then investigate it. And then tell me what will solve this problem best.

I have, there isn't a problem in Akiria. My probe teams are aware of almost everything in our nation, and I can tell you that no government individual has a hand in anything like this. Anymore I cannot say at the present time, until investigations are complete.

Cedayon · January 28, 2003, 14:21

"You did it!"
"No, I didn't!"
"Yes you did!"
"Prove it!"
"You prove you didn't!"
"The proof's right there!"
"It's inconclusive, it looks more like your fault!"
...
(further degeneration of discussion based on information that is impossible to confirm or deny)
...

Is there a point to this?

Maniac · January 28, 2003, 14:25

I have to agree with Cedayon. This discussion has degenerated into a mere difference in word definitions or a word-to-word argument, where any proof is impossible.

Drogue · January 28, 2003, 14:41

I agree too. It is an RP thing. GT is welcoe to invent it, but we do not have to accept everything invented in RP.

GeneralTacticus · January 29, 2003, 04:45

OOC: This being RP, I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to insist that the film is valid. If such a thing happened IRL, don't you think people would be trying to actually establish the truth rather than syaing 'You say it happens, I say it doesn't, so let's just forget about it and drop the whole issue'? I'll continue the rebuttal when I have time, unless foc ourse you just want to drop it because it's RP (and I'll remind you of this if you do, believe me).

Pandemoniak · January 29, 2003, 05:14

GT, I have evidence you rape childrens...

OOC : This being RP, I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to insist that this crime is true. If such a thing happened IRL, don't you think people would be trying to actually establish the truth rather than syaing 'You say it happens, I say it doesn't, so let's just forget about it and drop the whole issue'? I'll continue the rebuttal when I have time, unless foc ourse you just want to drop it because it's RP (and I'll remind you of this if you do, believe me).

There's fun RP and not fun at all RP.

Archaic · January 29, 2003, 06:02

There's plausible and inplausible RP Pan.

Frankly, I don't see how what we've posted isn't fun (Or how that is suddenly a problem). Oh, wait, yes I do, it conflicts with your precious ideals, even though it's a completly plausible (Not to mention likely and realistic) situation. What a pity. Dudums.

Rebuttals against Drogue tomorrow.

Drogue · January 29, 2003, 17:17

I think GTs alegations are about as founded as Pande's rape alegation. Both are only remotedly possible, both can be easily denied. A Governor in a Planned system has control over all factories, and would know if it was happening. If it is happening, it is illegal, because it is not a Government controlled, nor even known about, factory. It has no licence. Therefore GT saying "this is legal dues to Pande's reforms", is not correct. If it exists, the factory is already illegal, unless it is managed by the Governor, or his accociates. In which case, that is a serious allegation, that the governor is supporting and perpetrating this type of labour. I do not, although I cannot speak for other Governors.

GeneralTacticus · January 30, 2003, 04:14

Given the amount of bureacracy required to administer a Planned economy, how exactly would a governor be able to know what was going on in evey factory in his region... particularly if the factories weren't officially listed as such?

Pandemoniak · January 30, 2003, 05:12

Well, that is WHY we have such a heavy bureaucracy, thats to keep everything in control...

GeneralTacticus · January 30, 2003, 05:16

But the bigger a bureaucracy is, the harder it is keep track of everyhting, and the easier it is bury things under mounds of paper (or whatever it is we use now). Bureaucrats aren't just cogs in the system, doing their duty selflessly and flawlessly; they're people, just like everyone else, and thus have their own agendas, and are of course course corruptible.

Pandemoniak · January 30, 2003, 05:26

Why it isnt fun ?
Because of personnal attacks, to me and not to my role.
And its as (in)plausible as GT's rape.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Hundreds of children, none older than sixteen and often younger than twelve, work for the next twelve hours assembling machine tools that will produce weaponry, [...] the pain in their backs becomes unbearable[...], [and] engthened by the Pandemoniak Social Engineering Decree of 2213, it is entirely legal. The decree authorizes [...] child in the education system [to] be conscripted into the workforce indefinitely.
The children, and their parents, are afraid to speak out for fear that they will lose their jobs.

For the sake of our conscience, the rights of our people, and our claim to represent freedom on this planet, the existence of such a world, [a decree, and his writer] cannot be tolerated.

Im here just quoting the personnal and direct attacks, not all the indirect personnal attacks.

OOC, all Im saying is that though the idea of making a CNNN documentary is a good idea, the fact that it looks so much like a nazi propaganda documentary is alarming. Im not saying you're a nazi, but either you have such a hatred of far left that you share part of their ideals, either you have such a love for true right parties that you share their ideals, either you simply made a mistake, which can happen to everyone.
But the worst is that you use it as an argument : you make up an insult, pretend it's real, and use it as an argument. In the scale of communication, not in the scale of debate.

GeneralTacticus · January 30, 2003, 06:10

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fact that it looks so much like a nazi propaganda documentary is alarming.

I would think that that's a coincidence, because I'd never even heard of the documentary you linked to, and didn't know that the Nazis published that partciular kind of propaganda; I thought they just demonised the USSR as being a vast region populated by barabaric subhumans.

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not saying you're a nazi, but either you have such a hatred of far left that you share part of their ideals,

I have a strong dislike for that part of the left that believes in state control over industry.

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, either you have such a love for true right parties that you share their ideals,

I don't think there is a single truly right-wing party IRL that I know of that I don't utterly despise, so that one goes out the window.

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either you simply made a mistake, which can happen to everyone.

This documentary was a product of that old argument over whether Marxism favoured child labour, which I did not see as satisfactorily resolved, given that everything hinged on whether the proper term was 'material' or 'industrial', and since the copy of the Manifesto that's in English uses 'industrial', we couldn't resolve the issue.

Quite apart form that, the issue is not whether, you, personally, or Marxists in general support this kind of stuff happening; obviously you don't. The issue is whether youractions can and have led to this happening, in much the same way the US public wouldn't support the war crimes their governments committed, yet their actions made it possible for them to be committed.

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But the worst is that you use it as an argument :

Where have i used it as an argument? Archaic has linked to it, but I don't recall using it in a debate other than the current one about it's validity.

Drogue · January 30, 2003, 07:05

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Given the amount of bureacracy required to administer a Planned economy, how exactly would a governor be able to know what was going on in evey factory in his region... particularly if the factories weren't officially listed as such?

In a democratic, bureacratic Planned system such as ours, every factory would be registered. And the Governor would either control it personally, in a small region, or would appoint/elect people to control them. Akiria is small, and so I control most factories, however I have appointed Majors to be in charge of that base, and the factories within. I trust the Herc and Kirov would not support such a system, and neither will I. Therefore I can assure you that this type of slave labour does not happen here.

GeneralTacticus · January 30, 2003, 07:19

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In a democratic, bureacratic Planned system such as ours, every factory would be registered.

Why would it being democratic make even the slightest amount of difference?

Pandemoniak · January 30, 2003, 09:17

Sorry, my bad then. Archaic has used it as an argument, not you[/i].

Quote:

The issue is whether youractions can and have led to this happening, in much the same way the US public wouldn't support the war crimes their governments committed, yet their actions made it possible for them to be committed.

The people of UN Peacekeepers have regard on what we do, unlike the US public. Theres never been a vote in the US to determine if they would or not go to war, while there is constantly votes in the UN PK.
-- OOC, i like this idea of the guy coming home and checking his own "Palm Poll Pilot" and wondering : "Ok, what are we voting today..."

GeneralTacticus · January 31, 2003, 03:39

...? What's your point there? Of course this has neve rbeen subjected to democratic oversight, because it would not exist if it were, but that, again, isn't the point. The point is whether or not the law you passed could be abused to permit this to happen.

Pandemoniak · January 31, 2003, 04:22

It cannot be used to permit this :

Quote:

Pandemoniak's decree says:
Alinea 7 : Proper care and education for our childrens is directly under control of the Childrens' creche. This includes medical services to guarantee good health to our young citizens, and education, not only intellectual but also material.

Archaic · January 31, 2003, 05:16

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and education, not only intellectual but also material.

Remember, they're calling them "technical apprenticeships" and "hands-on training classes". You've shown exactly where the loophole is. Domo Arigato. Concession Accepted.

GeneralTacticus · January 31, 2003, 05:22

So, the obvious solution is to amend that paragraph to include 'All facilities used for the purpose of this education must be publicly recorded as such, including the type of education conducted therein, and must allow video survelliance by the U.N. Department for Human Rights, to ensure that human rights are respected.'

Pandemoniak · January 31, 2003, 10:43

There is no need : "This includes medical services to guarantee good health". So it is obvious that this law allow no child to work in a factory and that you've been crooked by Hiveans propagandists. Besides you're forgetting that according to Crisler decree of Jolly Youth, MY 2102, and that still hasnt been cancelled, no children under the age of sixteen is allowed to be closer than five miles of any kind of factory, in order to prevent their health and good manners
This, if you remember, was used to avoid that children under the age of sixteen hang out around the Recreations Commons Bars. I think that it was Lemmy's decree which said : "no recreation common bar is allowed to be closer than five miles of anykind of factory", which was a distoted way to reduce drinking age to 12.

But if you wish to amend the paragraph, just phone my secretary, Mr. Commishioner.

Just remember you have refused to sign the Declaration of Human Rights, so there is no Department of Human Rights.

Aaron Blackwell · January 31, 2003, 11:05

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GT, I have evidence you rape childrens...

WHAT ???!!!!! YOU RAPE CHILDREN GT !!!!

YOU SHOULD BE BROUGHT DOWN BEFORE JUSTICE !!!!!

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lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllll

Just kidding

Maniac · January 31, 2003, 12:57

Great RP Pandemoniak.