Discussion: FAM orders, 1325 AD

[Shiber]

During my term, I intend to post my orders twice: once in the orders thread, and once in a separate thread. I encourage the citizens of Apolytonia to discuss the issues addressed by my orders, and make any suggestions should they see fit. I promise to read everything you write, and I'll do my very best to check this thread up until the turnchat begins.
Here are my orders for the next turnchat, starting from 1325 AD:

Turn 0 (beginning of turnchat)
- All quiet on the western front.

Turn 1
- Sell Atomic Theory to Zululand for 41 gpt, 90 gold and their world map.

Turn 2

- Im Western Nichts Neves.

Turn 3
- MPPs expire! Do not extend these agreements, since we'd probably want to end the wars soon (most likely during the next turnchat).
- Our trade deal for furs from India will end this turn. Renew our supply of furs! We must have those furs in order to keep our citizens happy. See if we can renegotiate our peace treaty with India for furs and thereby get them for free. Otherwise, trade a tech for another 20 turns of furs and as much gpt as Gandhi can pay.
- We may sign peace treaties now without taking a reputation hit. The war with Rome serves no real purpose and we have no goals, so sign a peace treaty with Rome. Babylon doesn't have anything in particular that we want, so sign a peace treaty with Babylon for as much gold, gpt or anything else (in this order) that they can pay (I expect very little).
- A resources and luxuries deal with Persia expires this turn, so Persia will have some gpt freed. Offer to sell them a tech, and if they can't pay 100 gpt or more (the likely option), offer to sell them luxuries or resources (preferably luxuries, but throw in resources as well if Xerxes will pay more) for as much gpt as they can afford.
- A deal with India will expire, and they'll have some gpt freed up. See if they can afford to buy a tech (minimum price is 100 gpt) or luxuries (minimum price is 25 gpt).

Turn 4
- Ba'maarav ein col hadash (that's Hebrew).

Turn 5
- Enough of the war with Japan for now. We have nothing to gain from it anyway, so sign a peace treaty with Japan for as much gold, gpt or anything else (in this order) that they can pay.

General orders
- When signing a peace treaty, try to maximize our profits! Demand (in the following order): gold, gpt, luxuries, resources, workers, maps. If the AI will agree to withdraw from a city/cities as well in exchange for peace, debate whether we want those cities (I leave the final decision to the cabinet, if I am not present during the turnchat).
- Check if any workers are available for purchase every turn, and buy if any are available. Slaves cost us near to nothing, and if we integrate them to our cities they will return the investment in a couple of turns.
- Opportunities come and go, and we don't wanna miss any! Check every turn if there are any opportunities to sell techs (for a minimum price of 100 gpt) or luxuries/resources (for a minimum price of 25 gpt, sell resources only to civs that are behind on 3 or more techs) to any of the AIs.
- In case I am not present during the turnchat, any or all of the above orders may be changed, should they become harmful or inappropriate. I recommend that the present cabinet be polled on any changes to my orders before they are made.

[joncnunn]

I think that we will need to manually cancel the MPPs on turn 3 prior to Signing the peace treaties.
If we don't do anything, the MPP deal rides and should the nation attack the MPP partners within 20 turns, our reputation takes a hit.

Very little if any of our War Werrious is from fighting the Babs; it won't improve our War Werrious to sign a treaty with them and if we've never killed Bab units outside our cultural boundary it may hurt our overall WW level to sign a peace deal with them because we might have one fewer citizen per city unhappy because Babylon declared war on us.

Signing a peace treaty with Japan will hurt our overall WW level as well (by 1 citizen per city), because to my knowledge, we have never killed a Japenese unit outside our cultural boundary and they were the ones who declared war on us.

You didn't list Rome or Germany:

Signing a peace deal with Rome would slightly improve the WW problem.

Signing a peace deal with Germany would elimate most of the WW.

[ManicStarSeed]

If we wait one turn to sell AT to the zlus, they will have some 30LPT additional money to sink into AT as a deal is about to expire. We took a quick poll during the chat and the vote went the way of waiting till next turn.

There is fear of them geting it from someone else but we decided to take a risk. Heck even if the do, we can sell them electronics next turn for 30LPT.

Mss

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by joncnunn

Signing a peace deal with Germany would elimate most of the WW.

But will Kill our rep as we still have Alliances against germany for the next 8 turns

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed


But will Kill our rep as we still have Alliances against germany for the next 8 turns

edit: Dont forget we have a rep hit from the aztecs...

[roadcage]

We cannot end Germany yet, but the Roman conflict should be ended in 1340.

I think we killed a few babs in russian territory, but none in theirs.

Babs and Japan should wait on the Germany Alliances (1370?). In the meantime be sure to not kill any (babs or Japs) in foreign lands.

The zulu trade- I believe you will get more lpt if you wait one more turn.

Persia - It is hopeless to prop them up. They cannot offer enough resistance to others or coin to us be useful. We should position ourselves diplomatically to be able to take them out of their misery. (Unassisted clean kill) We may not want to, but retain the capability. Allow all Persian deals to end.

[Arnelos]

Go ahead and sign a treaty with both Rome, Babylon, and Japan (all of them if possible).

Germany has to wait, but we can at least end those wars when the enemies in question are willing to sign the treaty.

We need to work our war weariness down before considering going back to war.

[Shiber]

Joncnunn: I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that signing a peace treaty with Babylon and Japan could increase our war weariness. Do you mean that it would cancel the slight happiness effect that our cities experience when someone declares war on us? In that case, it expires after five turns, as far as I know, so there's no fear in losing something that we've already lost in the case of Babylon, or will lose in turn 5 in the case of Japan.
As for Germany and Rome, MSS said it right. Plus, we haven't had a poll on this matter yet. I am going to arrange one as soon as the current turnchat is over.

MSS: I see the point in delaying the sale. Changing orders now...

[joncnunn]

Shiber, yes I was refering to the happiness bounce when someone declares war on us. I didn't know about it going away in 5 turns.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by roadcage
We cannot end Germany yet, but the Roman conflict should be ended in 1340.

I agree, but we haven't had a poll on this, and we don't have 72 hours. We can end the Roman conflict next turn.

Babs and Japan should wait on the Germany Alliances (1370?).

I don't see any reason why. Have we signed any alliances against Babylon or Japan that I have overlooked? Other than the MPPs, which will expire in 3 turns, I am not aware of any treaties that prevent us from signing a treaty with Babylon and Japan.

Persia - It is hopeless to prop them up. They cannot offer enough resistance to others or coin to us be useful.

Perhaps this won't help at all, but it certainly can't harm us either. Furthermore, this will improve our relations with Persia - something that would come in handy, should we decide to go for a diplo victory.

We should position ourselves diplomatically to be able to take them out of their misery.

That's up to SMC Meshelic to decide. If he takes your suggestion, then I'll probably act accordingly and end any deals with Persia.

Originally posted by Arnelos
Go ahead and sign a treaty with both Rome, Babylon, and Japan (all of them if possible).

I'd gladly issue the order to sign a peace treaty with Rome once the MPPs end, but I'd rather wait for comments from SMC Meshelic on this.
I'll PM him about this right away.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Shiber
I'd gladly issue the order to sign a peace treaty with Rome once the MPPs end, but I'd rather wait for comments from SMC Meshelic on this.
I'll PM him about this right away.

The Constitution requires you to have the authorization of either Meshelic or Aro anways

If either of them agree, do it!

[roadcage]

As explained by joncnunn above, it will be counterproductive v war weariness to settle with Japan and Babylon. The big reduction in war weariness comes when we settle with or eliminate Germany. Once that happens, we will be able to accept the loss of foreign initiated agression bonus that we currently get from Japan and Babylon.

War weariness comes from two features.

War initiation: a fixed amount that is added if you initiate and subtracted if the foreign civ initiates. The size of this increment is a function of method of initiation. This algorithym has not been posted, but sneak attacks, and initiation inviolation of treaties or pacts are worse.

War action: a smaller fixed amount that is added EVERY time a unit is killed outside of your territory as a result of combat between your civ and the warring civ.

The size of each increment is a function of government, Universal Suffrage, and Police Stations. The Government and Universal Suffrage effects are applied globally, and police station effects are applied city by city.

Peace treaties and civ elimination mask all war weariness both positive and negative due to the civ that is (or was) the counterparty. Please note that this is masked rather than eliminated. New war with same civ, and bingo!

Turn passage causes some previously masked war weariness to end. The algorithym for this disappearance has never been posted by the developers.

The net effect of all of this mumbo jumbo is that since Japan Declared by sneak attack on us, in violation of an alliance, and we have only met them on our turf, our Japanese based war weariness is actually improving our overall situation. Signing a treaty with them now would increase our war weariness. Babylon declared in response to a diplomatic understanding with Rome, and we have killed a few of their units in Russian territory. I believe we still have a slightly favorable war weariness account with Babylon.

[roadcage]

Perhaps this won't help at all, but it certainly can't harm us either. Furthermore, this will improve our relations with Persia - something that would come in handy, should we decide to go for a diplo victory.

Nonesense. We fought a long and bloody campaign against the Persians. We annexed their homelands and humiliated them at the peace negotiating table by taking all their techs, and gold. We did all of this honorably, but to them it doesn't matter. If we have any thoughts about a diplo victory, Persia must be eliminated.

[Shiber]

Regarding your explanation of how WW works: I'm not entirely sure that the reduction of war weariness due to another civ's declaration of war on you lasts forever. So far I've been told by numerous people that it lasts for up to five turns (up until the moment where the warring civ would agree to see your diplomats). If you can convince me otherwise, by providing any form of evidence, such as records of experiments made with WW, threads on the subject of WW where many people posted that they had similar experiences and so on, I will change my orders accordingly.
Regarding Persia, I am still not convinced that selling strategic resources to Persia (where there are no other buyers for those resources), rather than luxuries, would harm us in any way. However, I have changed my mind for another reason: with luxuries, Persia can afford to have less entertainers, and waste less gold on the lux slider, and therefore they'll have a bigger income, which means that they'll have more money which they can use to pay us for more luxuries, techs and other goods. I will change my orders to sell Persia luxuries.

[Shiber]

Note to all: SMC Meshelic agrees that we have no further goals to meet in the Roman front, and agrees that we should end this particular conflict. I have added an order to sign a treaty with Rome in Turn 3.