Jane Fonda

Kramerman · January 22, 2003, 17:56

I got this e-mail fwd today, and after reading it, as I didnt know much about Jane Fonda, I decided to check its validity.
I found this website that actually addressed this email fwd in particular.
Jane Fonda Urban Legend?

the fwd:

Quote:

Subj: KEEP THIS MOVING; ACROSS AMERICA HONORING A TRAITOR

This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember
this,
and didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and
older
brothers and sisters had to bear. Jane Fonda is being honored as one of
the
"100 Women of the Century." Unfortunately, many have forgotten and
still
countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the
idea
of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during
Vietnam.

The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name
is
Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1968, the former Commandant of the
USAF
Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged
from
a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's,
he
was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the
"lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda,
was
clubbed, and dragged away.

During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp
Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col.

still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying
days)
from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. From

1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6
years
in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action".
His
wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the
cleaned, fed, clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation"
visit.

They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the
world
that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper,
with
his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda
and a
cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking
little
encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and
"Are
you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?"
Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper.

She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the
line
and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the
POWs,
she turned to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of
papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was
almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know
about
her actions that day.

I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and
was
captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968,
and
held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one
year
in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My
North
Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female
missionary,
a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried
in
the jungle near the Cambodian border.

At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal
weight
is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."

When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist
political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I
said
yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs
received
different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and
parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I
spent
three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a
large
amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till
my
arms dipped.

I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of
hours
after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me
on
TV. She did not answer me.

This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of

"100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women"

should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood
of so
many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions
to,
but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.

Please take the time to forward to as many people as you
possibly
can. It will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know
that
we will never forget.

From the website, I found this interesting, and made me thankful that I am a cynical/skeptical bastard that doesnt believe everything I hear:

Quote:

The most serious accusations in the piece quoted above -- that Fonda turned over slips of paper furtively given her by American POWS to the North Vietnamese and that several POWs were beaten to death as a result -- are proveably untrue. Those named in the inflammatory e-mail categorically deny the events they supposedly were part of.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda."

The tale about a defiant serviceman who spit at Jane Fonda and is severely beaten as a result is often attributed to Air Force pilot Jerry Driscoll. He has repeatedly stated on the record that it did not originate with him.

The story about a POW forced to kneel on rocky ground while holding a piece of steel rebar in his outstretched arms is true, though. That account comes from Michael Benge, a civilian advisor captured by the Viet Cong in 1968 and held as a POW for 5 years. His original statement, titled "Shame on Jane," was published in April by the Advocacy and Intelligence Network for POWs and MIAs.

The unknown author of the "Hanoi Jane" e-mail appears to have picked up Benge's story on-line and combined it with fabricated tales to create the forwarded text. Some versions now circulate with Benge's name listed; others quote his statement anonymously.

And I thought this was interesting in how it applies to a current thread about westerners flying to Iraq to be human shields:

Quote:

Still, legally treasonous or not, Jane Fonda's actions merit the contempt felt towards her, and her inclusion in ABC's 30 April 1999 "A Celebration: 100 Years of Great Women" rightly angered many who failed to see what was so "great" about this woman. She didn't go to North Vietnam to try to bring about peace or to reconcile the two warring sides or to stop American boys from being killed; she went there as an active show of support for the North Vietnamese cause. She lauded the North Vietnamese military and citizens while she denounced American soldiers as "war criminals" and urged them to stop fighting, she lobbied to cut off all American economic aid to the South Vietnamese government even after the Paris Peace Accords ended U.S. military involvement in Vietnam, and she publicly thanked the Soviets for providing assistance to the North Vietnamese. And she did all this not as a reckless youth who rashly spouted ill-considered opinions now best forgotten, but as a 34-year-old adult who should be expected to bear full responsibility for her actions.

Discuss...

Kman

SlowwHand · January 22, 2003, 18:06

Jane Fonda is a *****.

*edited by Ming*

Ming · January 22, 2003, 18:12

Slow.... you know better than that...

SlowwHand · January 22, 2003, 18:15

I apologize. She hits a nerve.

MichaeltheGreat · January 22, 2003, 18:16

The details vary, but the core issue still comes down to Jane Fonda: American Traitor *****

Bugs ****ing Bunny · January 22, 2003, 18:16

I refuse to believe anyone who got her kit off in "Barbarella" can be bad.

SlowwHand · January 22, 2003, 18:19

Believe it. Last I'll say about...this woman.

JohnT · January 22, 2003, 18:21

What MtG and Sloww said.

Ming · January 22, 2003, 18:25

I understand Slow... most of us old timers all have a similar reaction to her.

Kramerman · January 22, 2003, 18:25

I never understood how anyone could be so misinformed (Jane Fonda, that is). It is depressing, really. I thought those people must truely be few and far between, then I came to this forum... misinformation is rampant among many, it seems. and now I think it is time for another hit of bupropion,

EDIT: for clarity

SlowwHand · January 22, 2003, 18:26

Take a hit off your car's tail pipe, if you like Jane Fonda.

Goingonit · January 22, 2003, 18:27

There are situation in which neither side is in the right. Supporting the Viet Cong is not right. Slandering someone and claiming they are directly perosnally responsible for the deaths of large numbers of POWs is extremely wrong.

monkspider · January 22, 2003, 18:33

I don't understand how people could have such animosty for poor Jane.

Kramerman · January 22, 2003, 18:33

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Take a hit off your car's tail pipe, if you like Jane Fonda.

No!
I think she is an ignorant misinformed trecherous bastard!

Kramerman · January 22, 2003, 18:35

i can see how my post could have been mis interpreted, but the people on this forum i was refering to were the likes of Mr. Floyd and such

DinoDoc · January 22, 2003, 18:40

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
I don't understand how people could have such animosty for poor Jane.

The Tokyo Rose like broadcasts and calling POWs liars and hypocrites after they described the conditions they suffered through might have something to do with it.

chequita guevara · January 22, 2003, 18:41

Of course, how many old timers remember the protests aboard the US aircraft carriers when the Navy decided to cancel Jane Fonda's visit. They were forced to bring her anyway, despite the fact that she had been to Hanoi.

A lot of folks forget, many, many US servicemen and women were opposed to the war in Vietnam as well, and that when they got home, they formed the largest section of tha anti-war movement.

Kramerman · January 22, 2003, 18:43

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
I don't understand how people could have such animosty for poor Jane.

Oh, i dunno...

Quote:

During a 1972 trip to North Vietnam, Jane Fonda propagandized on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared that American POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had been tortured.

perhaps this for point 1 of about a dozen?

VJ · January 22, 2003, 18:48

(An European guy who was born in the late 80's appears)

Quote:

Jane Fonda

Who?

/me reads the first post *
Oh.

Quote:

should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood
of so many patriots

Sounds bad.

Quote:

Jane Fonda is a *****.

Sounds good.

Nubclear · January 22, 2003, 19:08

Hanoi Jane

Imran Siddiqui · January 22, 2003, 19:16

A horrible American. A good Vietnamese, but unfortunetly she didn't stay.

Hueij · January 22, 2003, 19:29

Quote:

I understand Slow... most of us old timers all have a similar reaction to her.

Well, being your age I thought and still do think she was on the right side. But then again you probably think the pictures that Life magazine showed of My Lai were pictures of an isolated incidence...

Anyways, I'm with Laz. Barbarella rulez!

Edit: typo

chequita guevara · January 22, 2003, 19:32

Jane Fonda was right!

Imran Siddiqui · January 22, 2003, 19:33

She was a *****! Calling POWs that told of their experiences 'liars'? Sorry, but I can't have respect for that. Oh, and that was 'wrong', btw

.

Tripledoc · January 22, 2003, 19:38

Urban legend is a right wing organisation,
I sent an e-mail to them asking whether former secretary of state Madeline Albright had actually said that it was indeed worth the lives of 500.000 children in upholding the sanctions against Iraq.

This was according to various anti-war protester sites.

No response.

Then I learned yesterday that the program in which she said "it was worth it", on CBS Sixty Minutes was actually erased from their archives.

Jane Fonda had the courage of confronting a criminal war by the United States government.

chequita guevara · January 22, 2003, 19:41

Yes, that was wrong, but it's not like our guys were so nice to captured Vietnamese either. Remember both MtG's and Chris62's reaction to my thread on the Winter Soldier's investigations? They catagorically refused to believe that American soldiers participated in attrocities (with the exception of Song Mai, aka, Mai Li, and then they still try and "justify" it). I'm not justifying what she said, but there is often a refusal to believe that your heroes engage in such things.

More important is how US soldiers in Vietnam treated Hanoi Jane at the time, which was as a hero.

Imran Siddiqui · January 22, 2003, 19:42

Um... there is no such thing as a criminal war, Tripledoc. All war is justified if you can others to agree, no matter what the underlying cause.

chequita guevara · January 22, 2003, 19:45

Tripledoc, I've seen clips of Maddy Albright saying that. I highly doubt that CBS would have erased that tape, however.

lightblue · January 22, 2003, 19:46

In a way this could be seen as treason, but seeing as i abhor the concept of loyalty to a nation state, I recognise that she has the right to express her opinion in a way that she saw fit at the time. Same goes for the human shield people, or Westerners in Al Qaeda. They should be allowed to do what they want, but they should not complain if they get spit at, shot, incarcerated or whatever. Not under treason as such, but as a PoW.

Tripledoc · January 22, 2003, 19:49

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Tripledoc, I've seen clips of Maddy Albright saying that. I highly doubt that CBS would have erased that tape, however.

That is according to an American made program aired on Danish state television (resembling PBS) yesterday.