OFFICIAL : Green energy allocation true final

Pandemoniak · January 23, 2003, 06:26

This is the final for the green energy allocation. This poll will last three days. The poll for the next SE settings -- introducing Green for the first time -- wont be available before the next turnchat, so I'll start it beginning of next week.

GeneralTacticus · January 23, 2003, 06:29

50/0/50.

Pandemoniak · January 23, 2003, 06:35

40/00/60

Archaic · January 23, 2003, 07:12

50/00/50

Seriously Pan, you skimp too much on Economy. Take a look at my SP games in Sikander's builder thread and see just what effect rushing had on my production of facilities.

Pandemoniak · January 23, 2003, 08:26

I dont care about your SPs games, I could as simply oppose mines...

Archaic · January 23, 2003, 08:35

Ah yes, retreating to your beloved RP arguements and completly forgetting game mechanics, not willing to admit that someone who can Transcend in the 2200's on the highest difficulty probably knows a hell of a lot more about playing this game than you do. Well, if you want to cover your ears and yell like always, feel free.

Maniac · January 23, 2003, 09:35

I'd prefer 100/00/00.

Archaic · January 23, 2003, 09:45

Scarily enough....that could potentially be a better setting, simply because all those lovely things you've built using all that cash start producing quite a lot once you go back to standard settings.

Pandemoniak · January 23, 2003, 10:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Ah yes, retreating to your beloved RP arguements and completly forgetting game mechanics, not willing to admit that someone who can Transcend in the 2200's on the highest difficulty probably knows a hell of a lot more about playing this game than you do. Well, if you want to cover your ears and yell like always, feel free.

Dont simply pretend to know the game better than by arguments like "Im good so Im better than you". We have different playstyles, and I wont play the "I have a bigger than you".
And about this transcend victory at MY 2200, i am quite positive i can have a diplomatic victory at year 2400 with far more points than your transcend victories. Its called different playstyles, I go for the more points, you go for the fastest transcend.

Archaic · January 23, 2003, 10:53

*Laughs* So a Diplo victory by then is better than a Transcend victory in the 2200's with the vast majority of the projects? If you want more points, you'd be playing by my playstyle. Hell, if I wanted to, I could elect myself leader and win by Diplo right after I snag Clinical Immortality, and potentially before (I haven't bothered to check the vote totals). By 2400's I'd have researched.....how many TT's? Seriously Pan, any claim you have to be better at this game than me is simply laughable if that's the best you can do. What I'm doing is hardly pretending. It's pointing out a simple fact.

EDIT: Now here's a nice way to settle this....

SMAC PBEM game, with every player using a PK Clone faction. 7 Human players, all members of this Diplo game, with enough of a spread so that we don't have too many on one side simply deciding to band together. Actually....we'll just make rules against it. Battle of the Builders. No offensive actions allowed against anyone, except for Probes. How does that sound Pan? Or are you chicken?

Cedayon · January 23, 2003, 12:04

50/0/50, because 40/0/60 won't get us tech any faster (same number of turns) right now... 30/0/70 would make it a turn faster, though. In the future the 40/60 ratio might be worthwhile, but not now.

We need the energy, anyway.

Btw, am I the only one who would prefer the heated and filled-with-insults "My playstyle is better than yours" discussions be held in PMs or at least on the strategy forums?

Pandemoniak · January 23, 2003, 12:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
*Laughs* So a Diplo victory by then is better than a Transcend victory in the 2200's with the vast majority of the projects? If you want more points, you'd be playing by my playstyle. Hell, if I wanted to, I could elect myself leader and win by Diplo right after I snag Clinical Immortality, and potentially before (I haven't bothered to check the vote totals). By 2400's I'd have researched.....how many TT's? Seriously Pan, any claim you have to be better at this game than me is simply laughable if that's the best you can do. What I'm doing is hardly pretending. It's pointing out a simple fact.

Except that you get one point for each citizen, so as soon as you get the Cloning Valts, you score starts to be really boosted. IIRC you lose 5 points per turn from the 1600 awarded for transcent victory, and you get one point per citizen...

Quote:

EDIT: Now here's a nice way to settle this....

SMAC PBEM game, with every player using a PK Clone faction. 7 Human players, all members of this Diplo game, with enough of a spread so that we don't have too many on one side simply deciding to band together. Actually....we'll just make rules against it. Battle of the Builders. No offensive actions allowed against anyone, except for Probes. How does that sound Pan? Or are you chicken?

For the moment, I'll be a chicken called for an emergency filming, in the middle of my exams, etc... who has just enough time to be a decent DoSE, seeing I'll be late for the Green switch and we'll hae to go planned a little more.
Moreover, I'm quite afraid we can't play a game together.

I'll try to save more time for February though.

Pandemoniak · January 23, 2003, 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Cedayon
Btw, am I the only one who would prefer the heated and filled-with-insults "My playstyle is better than yours" discussions be held in PMs or at least on the strategy forums?

No, I'd love that as well.

Maniac · January 23, 2003, 12:44

I'd love to participate in such a SMAC demo game. Actually I was just thinking about it myself after I read Archaic's message

Quote:

not willing to admit that someone who can Transcend in the 2200's on the highest difficulty probably knows a hell of a lot more about playing this game than you do.

Pandemoniak, despite being in exams, I don't think it should take too much of your time. After all, the first years you'll only have to move a few units. And when you get larger, your exams will already be over so I presume.

Quote:

SMAC PBEM game, with every player using a PK Clone faction. 7 Human players, all members of this Diplo game,

Or if we can't find 7, at least four or five so I hope.

Quote:

with enough of a spread so that we don't have too many on one side simply deciding to band together. Actually....we'll just make rules against it. Battle of the Builders. No offensive actions allowed against anyone, except for Probes.

Why are you afraid against people banding together???

Diplomacy is part of SMAC, just like building and conquering is. You may be the best builder, but the question is: can you also survive a rover rush?

For that matter, I'd like to propose large and not huge map size. That way there is enough room to play builder, but you aren't that far located from each other making conquests impossible.

Edit: perhaps we shouldn't force everyone to be PK if they don't want to, as that faction is biased towards certain SE choices. For instance I can imagine Hercules would want to play green with the Gaians, Pandemoniak planned with the Drones and Archaic FM with the Morganites.

Hercules · January 23, 2003, 14:29

Which ever delivers us the next tech quickist: if 40:00:60 does it one turn quicker so be it.

Hercules · January 23, 2003, 14:32

BTW I think it should be a 3 cornered contest: Capitalists, Socialists: and Environmentalists plus a liberal non aligned. Interested and for players of this SMACDG.

Maniac · January 23, 2003, 14:55

A liberal non aligned? What does that mean??

That can mean anything depending in which country you use the term. And personally I don't think it should become a contest between capitalist, socialists and environmentalists what economy is best (in the game of course). That simply is dependent on the faction and the kind of map you play on. And with PK/large map with otherwise standard settings it seems obvious to me FM builders would win.

Edit: I added my previous post regarding my position what factions we should play.

Method · January 23, 2003, 17:37

50/0/50

and shouldn't we be playing SMAX, with its bug fixes? i'm we could arrange sure those without it to *acquire* it

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
For instance I can imagine Hercules would want to play green with the Gaians, Pandemoniak planned with the Drones and Archaic FM with the Morganites.

and TKG cybernetic with the university

Cedayon · January 23, 2003, 18:36

If you need another player, I'm in... I have both SMAC and X, too.

It'll just be play till 2180 or so and see a message to the effect of "Archaic has transcended, game over, you lose", but it should be fun

MrWhereItsAt · January 23, 2003, 20:56

Sounds great! I've never PBEMed before. Now if I an only convince everyone to wait until beyond Feb 12...

Maniac · January 23, 2003, 20:59

Ok so we have MWIA, Cedayon, TKG, myself, Hercules, Archauc and possibly Pandemoniak. That makes 6 or 7.

Archaic · January 24, 2003, 01:26

Well, the reason I wanted to make it SMAC with us all as the PK's was to compare our playstyles directly with the demo game. The no war bit was simply because humans can't be as bad as the AI at war, and because we are pretty much playing a builder game here in the demo game.

But in any case, if this game isn't going to be used for that sort of purpose, how's this for rules.

SMAX

Cloned factions allowed. (ie. I play with the University, not with the Morganites, so both me and TKG are going to need .)

Huge Map

Do or Die: eliminated players are not restarted

Spoils of War off

Non-Blind (directed) research

No random events

All victory conditions allowed including cooperative. Coop victory is limited to two non-submissive players.

Unity survey off - map is unknown

Look first on

All other rules as per the PBEM tourney
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=14379

GeneralTacticus · January 24, 2003, 01:36

I'd be prepared to play if Pandemoniak isn't available.

Archaic · January 24, 2003, 03:52

It looks like you'll be in then GT.

Just to answer something Pan said earlier.....

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak

Except that you get one point for each citizen, so as soon as you get the Cloning Valts, you score starts to be really boosted. IIRC you lose 5 points per turn from the 1600 awarded for transcent victory, and you get one point per citizen...

And this makes a difference how, especially seeing as I'd be getting the Vats in....say....the 2220's, and would've already had most bases at max size from GA pop booming anyway.

For those interested, the scoring is as follows

1 point for each citizen of each base
1 point for each citizen of a pact brother's base (if won by economic or diplomatic)
1/2 point for each citizen of any other faction's base
1/2 point for each citizen of a surrendered base
1 point for each unit of commerce your bases are recieving
1 point for each technology discovered
10 points for each tech advance after Transcendent Thought
25 Points for each Secret Project

Victory Bonuses for winning the game are as follows
Conquest - 1000 points minus 2 points for every game turn elapsed. If Cooperative Victory is enabled, all Pact Brothers and Sisters participate in the win, and points are split between all winning factions bases on relative population. A maximum of 3 Pact Brothers or Sisters may join in a win by conquest, not including those factions that have surrendered along the way.

Diplomatic - 1200 points minus 2 points for every game turn elapsed. If cooperative is enabled and your Pact Brother or Sister is elected Supreme Leader, you are awarded half this total.

Economic - 1200 points minus 2 points for every game turn elapsed. If cooperative is enabled and your Pact Brother or Sister wins this way, you are awarded half this total.

Transcendence - 1600 points minus 2 points for every game turn elapsed (Not 5 Pan!). If Cooperative Victory is enabled, all Pact Brothers and Sisters participate in the win, and points are split between all winning factions bases on relative population.

In any cooperative victory, the overall winner recieved 1/2 the points of every allied faction's population score.

GeneralTacticus · January 24, 2003, 04:01

So, when's the game going to start?

Archaic · January 24, 2003, 04:34

Well, if everyone would like to post their preferred faction, I'll get a CMN.

GeneralTacticus · January 24, 2003, 04:40

Morganites. (I presume no aliens though?)

Archaic · January 24, 2003, 04:50

No aliens, yes. Way too unbalanced.

Pandemoniak · January 24, 2003, 05:11

After feb 12.

Allowing only probes is also biasing the challenge : the only way to conquer base will cost EC, and not minerals, making the advantage of Planned unsignificant compared to the credits of Free Market.
Also, we should play with bugs fixed.
Moreover, seeing my favourite vicotry is diplomatic, no human player would vote for any other seeing that it would make them loose the game, so victory by alliance has to be enabled.

I liked the idea of the two aliens, though. Ill look at the specific conditions of play later, and post more about it.

Quote:

Transcendence - 1600 points minus 2 points for every game turn elapsed (Not 5 Pan!).

Thats even better, with a faction of n cities popbooming, you get n points a turn and let "lose" 2 points a turn... It is mathematically obvious that you get more points by population than by fast transcendance.

GeneralTacticus · January 24, 2003, 05:15

The point Arachaic made, though, was that:

1) Had he chosen to Transcend alter, he could have, and would have scored far more points than your style would.

2) The simple fact that he could transcend in the 2200s is evidence for the effectiveness of his style; he got every tech in the game in under 200 turns.