Emperor Level--It's driving me nuts

Wizard55 · January 23, 2003, 13:00

Is it possible to win Emperor on a tiny map. That's what I have been trying to do for weeks.
I have been playing Monarch for months and win 9 out of 10 games by domination or Space Race. So I tought I would try Emperor.

I used the same strategy in Emperor that I had been using in Monarch, but the best I can do is 2nd place.

I play the Ottomans or Americans and play Random AI Civs.
I build 6 cities as fast as I can and then use 3 for culture and 3 for armies. I trade and give away everything to stay friends with AI Civs until I can hold my own militarily.

However if I go for culture I fall behind in military, and If I go for military I fall behind in the tech Race. yet the AI can get both.
Really annoys me to no end.

I've read some Threads on strategy but all were too general.
Are there any threads in the Forum that are more specific?
I'm not looking for cheats just ways to stay with the AI Civs.

Do you have to play on a large or huge mapto win Emperor?
I would appreciate any words of wisdom.

Thanks for listening.

alexman · January 23, 2003, 13:21

Tiny maps are actually the easiest to win at higher levels. Forget culture. Just attack your first neighbor as soon as you can. Then attack the next one. Until they're all gone. Six cities are probably too many to build. Start with 3-4 and build a barracks and units and then more units.

See Sir Ralph's archer rush thread for a timeline. Follow up the archers with swordsmen/horsemen. You can easily win before the ADs come along, giving you a huge score.

Personally, I don't like playing tiny maps because they can be very one-dimensional in strategy.

Nor Me · January 23, 2003, 13:31

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Start with 3-4

The times I've played these settings, I've started with 1 and only built a settler after taking out my nearest neighbour with archers. On deity they probably have more starting units so more might be needed.

On a standard map, building is often best but on a tiny map fighting early is your only hope. It should be easy.

Arrian · January 23, 2003, 14:07

On tiny maps, you may want to go with a civ that has early rush advantages, for example:

-China (great for archer rushes, and generally solid for setting up a war machine)
-Persia (Immortals. 'nuff said)
-Egypt, believe it or not. Hit somebody with swordsmen (warrior upgrade) while beelining for Monarchy and building War Chariots. Lots and lots and lots of them. Then hit anything that moves, and anything that doesn't.

alexman's right about # of cities. I typically build 8-10 on a standard map before attacking somebody. Translated to Tiny map, that should be about 4.

He's also right about culture: forget it. Go for the jugular.

Culture is important in games that you expect to last a few ages (or rather, games you expect to remain competitive for a couple of ages).

-Arrian

Catt · January 23, 2003, 14:53

I too would say forget culture early. If you're having trouble keeping up, don't waste the production of half your empire on culture. I am probably viewed as a proponent of early culture -- but in my mind, early culture means several early temples or early libraries (depending on civ characteristics) on a standard map -- culture can be powerful but it is more of a luxury than a necessity. If not playing a religious or scientific civ, you're probably much better off bagging any thoughts of culture entirely. All this is even more true, IMHO, on a tiny map -- go carve out a nice empire and then choose the method you'll pursue to victory.

Don't worry about falling behind in tech. You will fall behind, period. Warfare can yield some tech, but I think it's real value early is in securing a decent amount of land and hurting a neighbor. Tech backwardness, against AIs (i.e., in SP games) is not fatal - it is not even particularly harmful. Focus on land, on the ability to acquire more land, and on throwing as many monkey wrenches as possible into your neighbors' plans.

Catt

Robber Baron · January 23, 2003, 22:33

Speaking as someone who has recently made the jump from monarch to emperor level of play, I found that the most disruptive part of the change was adapting to lower unhappiness thresholds. You have to start playing with the luxury slider sooner. That, in turn, has a dramatic impact on either your research capacity or your revenue stream (unless you get lucky with luxuries). It sounds simple to spell it out so straightforwardly. But I think it took me some time to realize how sharply that was affecting various tactics and strategies I had internalized while playing at Monarch, and now had to reconsider.
It often becomes nearly impossible, for example, to keep pace with the AIs in research (assuming they are in contact with each other) from the middle of the ancient era through the late medeival or early industrial era -- which means you should abandon the effort, and compensate by collecting revenue more aggressively, brokering more creatively and more frequently, and selecting which techs you are buying much more rigorously.
You also need to weigh choices about city improvements much more carefully, to cut down on your upkeep expenses. Don't build that library until/unless you need it and are going to use it. Limit yourself to a minimum number of barracks. Etc.
In sum, if you don't need it yet, don't buy, build or research it. Make that a mantra, and repeat it at the beginning of each and every turn.

That said, for some reason my very first emperor victory came about on a tiny map while I was playing as the Arabs and following a varient rule under which I forced myself to buy, build, or whip mosques asap in every city I founded or captured -- and cathedrals in every city with a population of 6 or above.
Meanwhile, my ansars carved up the continent.
Which just goes to show, it is possible to conquer while establishing a respectable culture level.

Robber Baron · January 23, 2003, 22:41

Follow up thoughts (sorry, still mulling this one over):
Another way to describe the transformation from dominant monarch to shrewd emperor is this:
You have to get comfortable with the idea of being behind, for long stretches of the game.
Behind in tech, behind in culture, behind militarily. Often in at least one category, sometimes in several at once. Learn to bide your time. You may feel horribly exposed -- with spearmen guarding your border cities, for example, as shiny knights and heavy-footed medeival infantryappear across your borders in foreign territories. Stay calm. Pay tribute, if you need to, or cultivate allies. Don't panic, just stick to a basic long-term plan. Build your revenue up, grow your cities, strengthen your infrastructure. Your time will come.

Theseus · January 24, 2003, 00:33

Tiny maps are military maps.

Emperor on tiny maps requires MPs, and tech extortion.

'Nuff said.

vulture · January 24, 2003, 06:21

I don't know about tiny maps, having never played anything smaller than standard, but I can keep up with the AI on emperor level without doing tech extortion. My current game, as it happens, is with the Ottomans as well. I was very lucky in one sense in being able to become the biggest civ purely in the REX phase - I had a peninsula blocked off at one end by the Germans, but they expanded terrible slowly. The nice size of my empire had little bearing on my tech strategy though.

My approach is to research the most expensive tech, and do so in 40 turns to rake in the cash. The first tech you chose to research is usually a choice between something like pottery in 30 turns vs writing or mathematics in 40. The AI isn't going to get the expensive techs any more quickly than you are, and usually doesn't research them first anyway. Net result is that you can get mathematics (as the Ottomans) and trade it for several other techs (including pottery, for instance). Then repeat with another expensive tech that only you are going to research (currency or construction - you should have traded for iron working by this point with a combination of maths and some of that gold that you've been storing up by virtue of having science at 10% all the way through). Since you are researching in 40 turns, it doesn't really matter how big your empire is - you won't get it significantly quicker with a bigger empire, you'll just have more cash lying around waiting rush-buying to become an option.

Doing this I managed to be the tech co-leader without having to extort any techs. My large empire kicked in around the late middle ages when my research began to outstrip the AI, but until that point I was never behind the AI except by 1 tech that I hadn't traded for (always wait for 2 AI civs to get a tech before buying it off them). You have to contact the AI very often to keep track of who has which techs to grab the opportunities for tech brokerage. But canny trading will almost always keep you at the front of the pack in research, at least for civs that can research expensive techs from the start (commercial are good, since they have alphabet to trade and can research writing immediately, industrious have masonry and can research mathematics - this gives you a good foot in the door of the research trade market - as the Ottomans you also get bronze working, which is a pretty good trade item too).

Doing this method, be prepared to fork out quite a bit of money for government techs (monarchy or republic) in addition to your nice expensive currency-branch techs. The AI demands a lot for them.

Beyond that - see what the others said. Go kill something early. With warriors upgrading to swordsmen if you get iron working early, or spearman/archer combos once you get warrior code. Since it is possible to keep up with the AI by tech trading, you only need barracks as infrastructure, and then lots of veteran units (and possibly city walls). Give in to demands from strong, nearby civs. Tell weak or distant civs to shove it.

And possibly the hardest lesson for the monarch to emperor jump - get used to being behind on the powergraph and in the game for much of the early game. If you are used to dominating from the beginning, it is too easy to get discouraged and give up. After playing a few games through you get used to it, and learn to be patient until you hit the late middle ages or early industrial where you really begin to pull away from the AI civs. Remember that in real terms, you are in a stronger position that the histograph indicates.

Hope this helps.

Jamski · January 24, 2003, 06:41

I have a 5 ep plan for beating tiny Emperor mode. It relys on getting a reasonable starting position, ie no Tundra or Jungle etc, but it works for me.

1.) Start building a barracks, set the worker mining and roading, research (slowly) whichever you can from Warrior Code, Iron Working, Horseback Riding, Bronze Working etc. Basically a millitary tech. You can often get BWorking from a neighbour, its pretty common.

2.) When the barracks are built, then build a settler. If the city is not big enough yet, then change to vet. warriors untill it is.

3.) When the settler is built, change to vet. warriors untill the city is big enough to build a settler again. You should have used all these warriors to find your nearest victim by now. Use the settler to build a nearby city, and start on a barracks, as for the capital.

3.) As soon as the fourth settler is built, you should have an attack unit researched, and 3 citys with barracks. With luck you can upgrade all your many warriors to swords, but if not, then start all citys building archers/horses.

4.) You have built no defensive units, so now attack your neighbour VERY HARD ! Capture 2 or 3 cities and ask for peace. Get him to give you any small cities that would be destroyed if you had to fight for them. Then attack again.

5.) You are now the biggest baddest Civ in the world. Go to builder mode, or continue attacking the next civ.

-Good luck, and don't blame me if it doesn't work

-Jam

yxhuvud · January 24, 2003, 10:17

WoA:

Regarding building barracks first, I disagree. I usually build as many warriors I can to keep the people happy and exploring, and then time the first settler to complete the same turn as the city grows to size 3. After that, I might build a barracks if militaristic, or a temple is religious.

If I ain't either I usually wait another cycle and build the barracks when the second settler wave is complete. It does depend a bit on the map though, and on how much land you can settle without the ai getting there first. Generally the closer the opponent the fast I build barracks

laissez-faire · January 24, 2003, 11:37

I, too, recently made the swing up to Emporer (just a few days ago actually). I was a pretty dominant player at Monarch, winning 90% of the time. Early observations:

1) My biggest problem has been the tech race. When I get Republic, Xerxes is moving stacks of pikemen along my mountain spines. Thanks to vulture for addressing the question that's been looming in my head ever since that first game amidst the black fog of an Emporer map: Which tech do I research first? I think this is key and I'll shortly give vulture's strategy a go.

2) The AI seems to be much less reliable. On Monarch a random declaration of war from an "ally" was quite rare. Now, it seems, the AI can sniff out a weakly defended empire. I'll be doing fine forcing my colorful borders upon weaker surrounding kingdoms until Xerxes (with his mountain spine of pikemen) decides that being my wartime ally is no longer of epic interest and engulfs 60% of my empire like the green psychotic phagocyte that he is.

Biggest pet-peeve on Emporer? 8 Knights vs. 2 Impi and losing. Maybe this isn't level-related, but it has been for me.

EDIT: I play on standard maps.

Arrian · January 24, 2003, 12:25

It isn't level-related. It just feels that way. On Emperor, you can afford fewer bad rolls... losing 8 knights to 2 impi (ouch, I feel your pain) hurts more than it would on Monarch (it would still suck, but not quite as much). Luck (good & bad) impacts you more on the higher levels, IMO.

-Arrian

joncnunn · January 24, 2003, 12:28

Yes; I've won every Emperor lvevel game on a tiny map that I didn't hit the restart button within 20 turns of the game starting. 1 time via Culture and the others via Space Race.

I play as a Random Civ with random AI Civs on a competely random map with random barbs.

One difference: I don't have PTW and only have Classic Civ. The AI is better in PTW than Classic Civ.

I sugest using the 1 beaker tactic in early game. Much cheaper than actually reseraching yourself, and occansionly you'll actually be the first to discover something if there's 1 or 2 lost AIs. Make most of your tech buying in a GPT while if you succeed in getting something first get the payments up front (usally in tech) One major catch: the one beaker tactic only works if you have contactact with at least 1 civ that isn't furious with you. Should that occur, the best thing to do is just reserach behind them at the cheaper rate while searching for the lost civs.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wizard55
Is it possible to win Emperor on a tiny map. That's what I have been trying to do for weeks.
I have been playing Monarch for months and win 9 out of 10 games by domination or Space Race. So I tought I would try Emperor.

I used the same strategy in Emperor that I had been using in Monarch, but the best I can do is 2nd place.

I play the Ottomans or Americans and play Random AI Civs.
I build 6 cities as fast as I can and then use 3 for culture and 3 for armies. I trade and give away everything to stay friends with AI Civs until I can hold my own militarily.

However if I go for culture I fall behind in military, and If I go for military I fall behind in the tech Race. yet the AI can get both.
Really annoys me to no end.

I've read some Threads on strategy but all were too general.
Are there any threads in the Forum that are more specific?
I'm not looking for cheats just ways to stay with the AI Civs.

Do you have to play on a large or huge mapto win Emperor?
I would appreciate any words of wisdom.

Thanks for listening.

laissez-faire · January 24, 2003, 13:11

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
One difference: I don't have PTW and only have Classic Civ. The AI is better in PTW than Classic Civ.

That being said, I play with AU Mod 1.15 which (IMO) boasts an even smarter AI (credit to alexman et al). Although my Emporer games are usually decided before the Middle Ages; and I'm not sure how much AU Mod 1.15 makes a difference in that time.

Just lost three more games since my last post. I don't play out the loss. You can just tell...

Wizard55 · January 24, 2003, 13:53

First of all I thank everyone for the info.

SO, the concensus here is to beat the crap out of everyone to win on a tiny map. To play on a Standard to huge map is the only way to win culture victory.

My last game was: Tiny map,
Me-Ottomans AI Civs- Persia, Aztecs, Egypt
I was ahead in land area and population.
My culture was even with Persia, ahead of the other two civs.
I have the Pyramids, Sistine Chapel, Great Lighthouse,
Sun Tzu's Aow

I was stronger militarily than Aztecs and Egypt. Equal in strength with Persia. It is 1060 AD Persia is Gracious with me, Aztecs are polite, Egypt hates my guts. Egypt declares war on me because I won't give them 50 gold and World Map.

I get an alliance with Persia and together we wipe out Egypt, I taking 3 cities, Persia taking 5 cities. Persia is still Gracious.
5 turns later our RoP runs out and Persia declares war on me for no reason I can thimk of. I give gems to the Aztecs they become Gracious, but will not help me fight the persians.
8 turns later our Rop with Atecs is over and they join Persia to wipe me out. it really sucked. I wish I knew what caused this.

My hat goes off to those who can beat Emperor!!!!

one more thing:

Quote:

Quote:Originally posted by Alexman
See Sir Ralph's archer rush thread for a timeline. Follow up the archers with swordsmen/horsemen. You can easily win before the ADs come along, giving you a huge score.

Where can I find this?

Thanks for listening

ducki · January 24, 2003, 14:03

Check the "Must Read" thread at the top of the forum...
In it is a link to "Timeline for Ultra-early Acher Rush" or something similar.

Actually, all of that thread is good stuff, if mildly dated.

Dominae · January 24, 2003, 14:45

Wizard55, try not to listen to all these warmongers; if you want to beat Emperor culturally on a Tiny map, go for it! I see no reason why you should not be able to succeed..

Of course, under the given settings, it is probably easier to win by military force (hence all the comments thus far). But if you're trying to improve your game instead of just winning, the things that will help you win militarily will probably help you win peacefully as well.

What I'm saying is that there is more than one way to beat Emperor Civ3, on any map setting. Peaceful games are tougher, but possible.

This said, I suggest you pick the Chinese, chop some trees to build fast Archers, and got a-hunting. There will be plenty of time for peace later!

Dominae

Mattaba · January 24, 2003, 14:57

I have one thing to add on the tips above, an early FP is a MUST on Emperor.

joncnunn · January 24, 2003, 15:14

Merely being behind in tech doesn't mean you've lost on Emperor level.

In my current game, I only had half the ancient era techs when the AIs were all in the middle ages that turned out to be on a pangena map and come back to take a 2 tech lead going into the Industrial era. I anticipate getting a 1/4th era tech lead over the remaining AI by the time I win.

The keys to my come back were:

1. Taking advantage of the combined Aztec - Russia war vs Greece by buying all remaining Ancient Era techs + their WM for all 23 GPT (that was all my income)+ about 30 gold when Greece was down to Athens two turns before the Aztecs took it, canceling my debt.

2. Completion of the FP in the most suitable location. (Always is on Emperor.) In this case, my FP was greatly speeded up from triguring of my GA via wonder combo.

3. The subsequent Aztec - Russian war; largely brought on because Russia broke their alliance to sign a peace treay with Greece one turn before the Aztecs took Athens. This allowed me to buy tech from one for GPT and offset the costs selling to the other side for cold, hard cash. Evenually the Aztecs won, but at the cost of negleating their economy.

4. Flipping off 2 cities originaly built by Russia but captured by the Aztecs during their war. Sure, I had to abandon those cities during my first war with the Aztecs, but I was able to refound them in similar locations after the war, and in my second war, held the line by killing their Longbowmen with Calvary attacks within my Cultural boundary. This also produced a Great Leader.

Chemical Ollie · January 24, 2003, 18:03

I do not think winning Emperor is a matter of map size, rather luck with the starting position and of course your skills.

I once won regent level as early as 2700 BC on a minimal map by sending 4 archers to enemy land, but that is not what Civ3 is all about. Still I got 14400 score, so the scoring system sucks. I'm more proud of the Emperor level wins I got at 6000 score in 1950 AD after ages of balanced playing.

HolyWarrior · January 25, 2003, 00:38

OK, so how do you keep the AI from dogpiling you when you're way behind in tech?

I had one horrible game on Regent where I was on a peninsula, cut off from the main continent by mountains--and NO iron. I tried to take some by force, then the AI dogpiled me and it was game over.

So how do you do it?

Dominae · January 25, 2003, 00:47

HolyWarrior, if you're way behind in tech, the best thing to do (in my experience) is lay low and try to get some favorable trades with the less advanced civs.

Unless your lands are truly horrible (and even then...), you should be able to keep moving in the tech tree. Focus on those techs that bring things that have a long shelf-life: The Republic, Industrialization, Replaceable Parts.

Your main advantage against the AI is that it wastes a lot of time researching the weaker techs like Free Artistry and Espionage, while you can focus on the ones that will directly increase your power.

As you start catching up, try contacting the tech leaders to see if you can swing some nice deals. It just takes one sweet gpt deal with a big civ to put you back in the tech loop.

Eventually, through some nice trades and buildup of effective units (Cavalry, Infantry), you'll be in a position to compete. Maybe you will not be a tech leader right away, but as long as you're gaining strength eventually you will be.

Finally, do not discount the use of Spies. If you're worried about putting too much money into the enemy's pockets, Espionage is the way to go. Stealing techs safely often costs as much as the AI is asking for it (or more), but that money cannot be used by the other civ.

Dominae

Theseus · January 25, 2003, 02:31

Ah, ahem, errr... I (sometimes) get myself into difficult, come-from-behind situations, where, uh, I may have a few little wars going on.

I haven't posted enough about it, but when I am well and truly screwed I've got an methodology using oscillating war, Machiavellian diplo, resource gifting, branch tech leads, etc., to get back into a position of geo-political parity and then power.

vmxa1 · January 25, 2003, 04:17

Quote:

Originally posted by HolyWarrior
OK, so how do you keep the AI from dogpiling you when you're way behind in tech?

I had one horrible game on Regent where I was on a peninsula, cut off from the main continent by mountains--and NO iron. I tried to take some by force, then the AI dogpiled me and it was game over.

So how do you do it?

The two most common reasons people fall way behind at Regent is 1) isolation (this means no contact and you do not get the boost from having many races that have learned a given tech, that would make it cheaper for you to learn and you are not traing techs. 2) lack of proper title use. This means not picking a proper site for the town in the first place and or not controlling workers to have them improve the correct tile with the proper improvement. It also means insuring that the ciizens are working the tile they should be and the city growing.
These are often the problem at Monarch and Emperor ad well, but other factors can come into play and it may be reasonable to be behind at Emp/deity at the early stage.
I will flat out state that with a good start location, you should not be far behind the AI for long at Regent. If you find that you are and you have a decent location, you should consider reading Crackers work on open moves.
Once you are behind, I agree with Dom, hunker down, get your cities in good shape and try to make contact and deals. If war comes to you, try to enlist some help. Pay what you must to get it. Even though they may not take an active roll in helping, they at least will not be jumping in on the other side. I love to get as many as I can in on the fight and see all my foes lose units to the war.

AJ Corp. The FAIR · January 25, 2003, 09:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Wizard55

I was stronger militarily than Aztecs and Egypt. Equal in strength with Persia. It is 1060 AD Persia is Gracious with me, Aztecs are polite, Egypt hates my guts. Egypt declares war on me because I won't give them 50 gold and World Map.

I get an alliance with Persia and together we wipe out Egypt, I taking 3 cities, Persia taking 5 cities. Persia is still Gracious.
5 turns later our RoP runs out and Persia declares war on me for no reason I can thimk of. I give gems to the Aztecs they become Gracious, but will not help me fight the persians.
8 turns later our Rop with Atecs is over and they join Persia to wipe me out. it really sucked. I wish I knew what caused this.

My hat goes off to those who can beat Emperor!!!!

Firts of all: YOU and only YOU should decide WHEN THE WAR STARTS (if given the option of course). When you're planning to attack weaker civs, plan your goals and build up the necessary military. I give in to small demands as 50 gold, even when they just ask it a couple of turns before my planned attack.

When war is progressing fine, like yours was, you shouldn't bother about the almost beaten/weakened civ anymore, but focus on the other civs that grew stronger, like Persia in your case.

ALWAYS consider that they might attack you, especially if you too grew too strong. ALWAYS have a defense plan for your empire. (good road network, immediate respons to his troop movements, perhaps leaving some inner cities temporarily undefended)

Be Macchiavellistic: crush your opponents- the Egyptians - and plan your second opponent - the Persians. When they joined your attack, you could have been satisfied with ending the Egyptian war earlier, leaving it more to the Persians, whilst planning and building up your defense/attack forces toward them. Let the Persians take more cities --> you'll get them back

Beating emperor is not so hard . When I started playing one year ago, monarch soon seemed too easy, deity still is not 'realistic' due to the enormous bonuses for the AI. Do what I did my first games: immediately quitting when game progresses too badly, restarting, learning, avoiding same mistakes, and doing the right things in early phase. and later on)

AJ

ThePlagueRat · January 25, 2003, 10:27

Quote:

Originally posted by laissez-faire

I don't play out the loss. You can just tell...

Please don't do that if you are gonna do a multiplayer game.

laissez-faire · January 25, 2003, 10:47

Nice post, AJ. Funny I, too, was just about to post an anti-Persian rant.

It's the 13th century, and the wind blows the purple Iriquois flag from coast-to-coast on my tiny pangea map. This is my best Emporer game yet.

The Turks just declared war on me and a massive knight battle ensued. My superior tactics took his horses out and I began whittling away at Turkish cities one-by-one.

Soon, the map looked like this:

laissez-faire · January 25, 2003, 10:47

A pivotal move, however, was the MPP-ROP I signed with the Persians at the beginning of the war. The only way I could get him to fight the Turks with me (because I thought I needed it) was to offer the ROP. Well by the time he got his army across my territory to the front, I had the Turks well in check and didn't need him anymore (Xerxes, that is).

The fourth and final civ in the game (America) attacks me from the third direction. I sign a peace treaty with the Ottomans and shift everything to the light blue northern horizon. America takes three or four cities as they were only defended by spearmen. My knights finally make it up there and I take a few back, plus one more of Lincoln's. Persia is moving in along side me for the kill and everything is just hunky-dory.

Until...

laissez-faire · January 25, 2003, 10:48

I decided to play it out and see if I could end the war quickly (I mean I did have half the map). Three cities fell in one turn; two more in the next. My discouragement peaked in a swift Shift-Ctrl-Q when I saw the image below.

I’m quite frustrated. I can’t help but look at this game (and many others on Emporer) and ask would France have turned and attacked Britain in the middle of WWII? I guess once past Monarch, you have to prepare your empire for the absolute worst (and most far-fetched). ARRGH. Off to bed.