Party Neutral Thread Mk. II

[Kloreep]

I've noticed complaints about invasion of party threads rising again, so I think it's time for this. If you see something in another party's thread you want to respond to, do it here. (That means you, GF. That means you, internal PBEM talkers. )

Just don't turn this into a flamefest or tank spamfest please. You know who you are.

[Meshelic]

Just watch Kloreep, this will get accused (like the first one) of being a Labor hangout.

Sounds good. Actually, this would be a great place to have party discussions, between DIA and Labor alike, perhaps DIA may have some questions? Or in turn, Labor may have some questions for DIA as well?

[Nimitz]

Yes I think debates would be good they keep things flowing.

[Panzer32]

yeah... debates,

Lets argue the statement

"People have rights"

[Meshelic]

Which people are you talking about Panzer32? Apolyton citizens?, Aztecs?, Romans?, Brits...?

[Nimitz]

yup I'll moderate the first debate and you can do the same for the next meshelic. We'll have a DIA, ALP, and Ind member debate.

[Meshelic]

Sounds good Nimitz!

[Panag]

Originally posted by Nimitz
Yes I think debates would be good they keep things flowing.

hi ,

, but we are allready doing that , ......



then again , party only debates in there own threads might be intresting , ...

have a nice DIA day

[Meshelic]

So Nimitz....Moderate!

We need a topic to discuss.....

[Nimitz]

Well first we need the people then I'll give the topic, for the DIA arnelos will most likely be it. I need an ALP and an Ind now.

[Meshelic]

Well....I'm the Chairman, so I'm in!

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Meshelic
Just watch Kloreep, this will get accused (like the first one) of being a Labor hangout.

Everythread is a Labor hangout.

That's because the Labor Party takes a stand and supports its agenda while the DIA just makes up stuff and never actually does anything about the issues they supposedly support.

I've been trying like crazy to get them to actually try to accomplish ANYTHING in their agenda but they do nothing but lipservice.

[Panzer32]

Its the DIIA - Democratic Inactive Industrialists of Apolytonia

[Panag]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Everythread is a Labor hangout.

That's because the Labor Party takes a stand and supports its agenda while the DIA just makes up stuff and never actually does anything about the issues they supposedly support.

I've been trying like crazy to get them to actually try to accomplish ANYTHING in their agenda but they do nothing but lipservice.

hi ,

if you would take those artillery shell's out of your eyes , you would see that we actually do answer and give solutions , our ways of working however are not seen by many , but rest asure they are there , .....

we have done so many things the list is simply to long to write , so instead of writing that list we continue to work on other important stuff , .....

have a nice DIA day

[Meshelic]

Ghengis -

possible Topic of conversation

Speaking before the Senate...

*sorts through a few papers....*

"I'd like to bring this issue to everyone's attention. As many of you know, several independents have been calling for a switch to a Communist form of government lately, in light of the recent wave of weariness attached to our current war with the Axis of Evil.....

....and might I add that none of the suggestions were brought forth from Labor.... (this is where the Senate is supposed to laugh a little nervously...)

Regardless, this is an issue that deserves some attention, at least in studying how such a form of government would affect our nation beyond the initial obvious traits of that form of rule.

I pose the question to the Senate; who here among us is calling for this change? And who would like to support their opinion with facts, not heresay? Thank you."

*SMC Meshelic stands down and rest in his seat, awaiting the Senate's discussion and response*

[Arnelos]

Ghengis... You KNOW how hollow that is

C'mon... I owe my victory in at least one election (for FAM) to the DIA, as do a few other candidates. While many in this nation stood against signing agreements such as alliances and MPPs with the AI under any conditions, the DIA and myself proposed bills, argued for them, and got them passed calling for MPPs and alliances rather than suicidally flinging ourselves into war without friends as the Hawks suggested.

The space race issue is an issue we have not budged on and have remained the only party resolutely behind... and will remain so in the future. Despite attempts by certain people to convince the nation in favor of domination, they have failed... the nation supports the space race .

While the ALP has been TALKING about the abolition of slavery, it is the DIA that has been PUTTING FORWARD PLANS for the abolition of slavery, vetoing pro-slavery senate bills, and passing bills that encourage our own elected Domestic Minister to institute abolition plans in the future, but with respect for other national interests.

The ALP, despite now controlling the Presidency, remains on the sidelines of the real issues. The DIA, which no longer controls the Presidency, remains at the forefront of the major issues confronting the nation. We actually stand for something, namely the space race at this point.

You can taunt if you want to, but the do-nothing ALP hasn't done jack for any of their own issues (other than getting their people elected )... they haven't actively done anything about slavery, their party chairman has drafted military units directly against his OWN party platform, and they don't have much else on their platform (though if they did, I expect the party chairmain might violate those too )

So, Ghengis... you can stuff it

[Panzer32]

ermm, the DM isn't ALP... that would explain why slavery isn't abolished...

/edit: the drafting on Uber Isle was one of necessity, as it was going to be invaded... It does not go against ALP's policies to draft in emergencies.

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by Arnelos

The ALP, despite now controlling the Presidency,

....and the military....and the foreign office....and most of the Regional Administration.....well, okay, not most but you get my drift (unless you're an idiot)

to put it blatently, Labor IS the government right now, aside from joncnunn and a slight majority of RA's.

If anything, since Labor has been founded we've followed our charter (which of course I admit, is a little bland but that's my own fault for not being a die-hard politician like you), which CLEARLY states that it's #1 issue was to ENCOURAGE INVOLVEMENT in the demo game, ESPECIALLY at a time when the numbers were quickly dying off and people were beginning to lose any interest at all. That goal has been accomplished, and you may thank the ALP for it's part in that.

You can taunt if you want to, but the do-nothing ALP hasn't done jack for any of their own issues (other than getting their people elected )... they haven't actively done anything about slavery,

Hmmm you mean anything beyond vote in polls and post our support in the threads? What more do you want Arnelos? Really...?

their party chairman has drafted military units directly against his OWN party platform,

Pffft. Whatever Arnelos, you KNOW that isn't true. That's just low. Read the chat log, it's in there. First, I haven't drafted any units at ALL. Second, I've opposed it even when my own fellow ALP members thought it would be advantageous.

and they don't have much else on their platform (though if they did, I expect the party chairmain might violate those too )

Well think of how long the ALP has been around.... What, a month/month-and-a-half? You expect us to suddenly have a charter as lengthy and boring as your own? You expect our membership to be as large as yours? When we've only been around for such a short time, compared to the DIA who has been around since the very beginning? Quite a standard you hold everyone to Arnelos....

If you had a [rp] in front of your statements I wouldn't take it quite as personally (although I hardly take this personally anyways), but you're resorting to some low tactics, a reknown trait for the DIA. Don't attack the ALP just because you get riled by Ghengis's jests.

[Meshelic]

Concerning the draft - Actually I had no idea that had happened, (if it did at all?). It was not in my orders, and you will find that in the chat log I explicitly said that conscripts were totally unnecessary and that my plan, FORTRESS UBER, was perfectly capable of being implemented in full strength without the help of the draft.

If Panzer32 wishes to draft a citizen in his cities, is it not his right? I did not ask for it.

[Meshelic]

Ignorance must be bliss in the DIA, that's all I gotta say.

[Arnelos]

Glad I riled Meshelic up

My post was directed at GhengisFarb, but I'm glad Meshelic was the one to respond

The point remains that the DIA has stood its ground quite well, thank you. We actually stand for something and are proud of it.

It was Ghengis' insinuation that we were somehow inefective that was so laughably false and I was responding to

Used the ALP's ineffectiveness (thusfar...) at anything other than getting their people elected as an example of how Ghengis' argument that the ALP stands for something compared to the DIA is, well.... entirely hollow.

Their only major issue (slavery) has been lead primarily by members of the DIA. We're happy to have the support of ALP members on that issue, but I don't think it's a stretch even for Meshelic to admit that the ALP leadership hasn't been leading the debate on the issue.

I fully expect (and even hope...) that that may change in the future with them now in government - they now have an opportunity to use their position to lead... it remains to be seen what they'll do with that opportunity

[Nimitz]

The debate reps so far.
DIA: Arnelos
ALP: Meshelic
Ind.: ?
The debate will start in a few days if there no ind that signs on. I will lay the ground work as we go I have it all in my head.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arnelos


Ghengis... You KNOW how hollow that is

C'mon... I owe my victory in at least one election (for FAM) to the DIA, as do a few other candidates. While many in this nation stood against signing agreements such as alliances and MPPs with the AI under any conditions, the DIA and myself proposed bills, argued for them, and got them passed calling for MPPs and alliances rather than suicidally flinging ourselves into war without friends as the Hawks suggested.

The space race issue is an issue we have not budged on and have remained the only party resolutely behind... and will remain so in the future. Despite attempts by certain people to convince the nation in favor of domination, they have failed... the nation supports the space race .

While the ALP has been TALKING about the abolition of slavery, it is the DIA that has been PUTTING FORWARD PLANS for the abolition of slavery, vetoing pro-slavery senate bills, and passing bills that encourage our own elected Domestic Minister to institute abolition plans in the future, but with respect for other national interests.

The ALP, despite now controlling the Presidency, remains on the sidelines of the real issues. The DIA, which no longer controls the Presidency, remains at the forefront of the major issues confronting the nation. We actually stand for something, namely the space race at this point.

Yay, you're absolutely right, my arguments have been more and more unsubstatiated. Mainly, because when I brought up reasonable arguments the DIA stood silent. When I went a bit out there the DIA stood silent. I finally had to resort to extreme exaggeration to get anyone to speak up.

Now the question is, why? Are the DIA's leaders simply slow? Did it take this long for them to find speech writers to write their posts for them as they have no idea what any of these issues are? Are do they simply not care about any of the issues they bring up?

On a completely different note, it amazes me how identical our DIA is to America's Democratic Party.

Both are the largest political parties in their nations.

Both are the oldest parties in their nations.

Both claim to represent business when they actually support people's rights over business.

And both are very anti-military.

Its very interesting.

[Meshelic]

If Ghengis would accept my nomination, I'd like to see him act as a voice for the independents, who aren't actually a party but as he is a most outspoken critic of both parties, I believe he'd make a great candidate for such a job. I think Arnelos may agree with me as well, on that one....

Ghengis? What do you think...?

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
On a completely different note, it amazes me how identical our DIA is to America's Democratic Party.

Both are the largest political parties in their nations.

Both are the oldest parties in their nations.

Both claim to represent business when they actually support people's rights over business.

And both are very anti-military.

Its very interesting.

Just so you or anyone else knows in the event that anyone didn't hear this one already... I'm a political worker for the Republican Party in RL

and despite being somewhat of a centrist, I don't quite qualify for the club for growth's RINO (Republic in name only) description

However, I have a healthy respect for the Democratic Party. They might currently be leaderless, directionless, obsessed with public office over their own principles, and generally deplorable for exploiting and ignoring some of their own constituency groups (African-Americans at the top of that list, who they treat poorly and take for granted), but the history of their party suggests that they will eventually find leadership, direction, and sense of principles again in the future. I honestly believe American politics (or the democratic politics of any country) is at its healthiest when both left and right are capable of offering a reasonably clear and well-lead option for the voting public to choose. I also respect that many of the principles the Democrats' actually work to defend in their better moments are as much a part of the "American Creed" as those liberties the Republicans work to defend in our better moments.

I'm certainly something of a pro-business conservative in RL and I'm strongly in favor of the current administration's policy on Iraq. Ironicly, I and many others like me share the liberals' attachment to international law, the difference is that they don't seem to quite understand that laws are just ink on paper unless you enforce them (the reality is that the leftist politicians both in Europe and the U.S. do understand this, but they're too scared to ever display or follow this understanding ).

However... Apolyton is very different from RL. First, not everyone plays the part in Apolyton that they play in RL. I'm not Second, political alignments here are... rather different... from those in RL. Just because a certain set of issues lines up as being "left-wing" or "right-wing" in any given RL country doesn't mean it has any correlation to such a scale in any other given political climate.

To use the ALP as an example, they have some issues that one might consider "left-wing" and others that one might consider "right-wing". The same goes for the DIA. The RL labels just don't work very well. We've assigned "left" and "right" labels in the past because it's convenient, but I think most understand that they mean different things here.

back to the subject and to Apolyton (rather than RL...)

The DIA is in favor of industrial and economic development. As the French economist Bastiat once said, "if goods don't cross borders, soldiers will". This truth is at the center of the DIA's pro-commerce and pro-business policy. It is centered on the idea that wealth is best accumulated when there's a minimum of strife, death, mayhem, crime, and general disorder. In Civ3, in order to promote the expansion of commerce and industry, resources must be expent. Such resources often must be expent at the EXPENSE of expending the same resources on military development and the conquest of new lands. Likewise, it is often the case that to expend resources on military development and conquest, one must leave their economy and industry underdeveloped.

The DIA has and very clearly and unambiguously stood for expending more resources on economic and industrial development than on militarism and conquest. While certain instances of war and conquest have been supported by the DIA because they are clearly in the national interest (such as our current war with Germany, which members of the DIA did much to help plan for and fight), many others the DIA has not because it felt that our economic and industrial development is seriously lacking and needs more attention.

Especially now with the war weariness of the population entering the equation, the DIA stands firmly for the principle that peace is needed. Once this war is complete, we will need an extended time to develop the various improvements of the Industrial Age throughout the cities of our now vast empire. Much of our empire still suffers from under-development. We need more marketplaces and banks, more courthouses and police stations, more aqueducts and hospitals, more libraries and universities.

If our goal is the space race, and the population has clearly shown that it is, then we desperately need to attend to these deficiencies in Apolyton's level of development. While the emphasis on war and conquest has certainly expanded the borders of our great nation, it has left our economic and industrial situation underdeveloped compared to its potential had we chosen even a slightly less warmongering path.

Especially now, it would be GREATLY beneficial to develop our industry and economy to their utmost before going back to war. The increased strength of our industry and the increased vitality of our economy would allow us to far better support a future war effort than our currently limited abilities. Because, as many understand and as Gladstone (man of my avatar ) once stated, "Here is my first principle of foreign policy: good government at home."

The DIA stands, simply, upon that principle and upon the principle that placing resources fully into domestic development can many times more greatly increase the wealth of a nation than in attempting to expand its borders. With our empire already being so enormous and our goal being the space race, this has never been more true than it is now.

We have little to gain from further conquests in terms of aiding our goal of reaching for the stars. The problem of German technological rivalry has already been vanquished and no replacement for the Germans has yet been found. It is time that we took this opportunity, the first in our nation's history, to soar above and beyond all others by concentrating on our situation here at home and reaching for the stars - for now none of them possess enough to stop us.

Victory is nearly within our grasp... we need only the will to grasp for it.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Meshelic
If Ghengis would accept my nomination, I'd like to see him act as a voice for the independents, who aren't actually a party but as he is a most outspoken critic of both parties, I believe he'd make a great candidate for such a job. I think Arnelos may agree with me as well, on that one....

Ghengis? What do you think...?

Ghengis is always free to express his opinion, of course, but it would be a mistake to believe that he in any way represents the independent population... that would be a rather severe misunderstanding of the defintion of "independent"

It's also true that in a broader sense the independents are, politically speaking, all over the map. GhengisFarb could certainly represent himself and others of like mind, but they are comparatively few even compared to the full population of independents, nevermind the full population of the Demogame.

As I said, however, GhengisFarb is of course ALWAYS free to speak his mind (as though we could get him to shut up even if we wanted to ).

[Meshelic]

Hmm...maybe there should be more than one Independant speaking as a well.....they aren't representatives of anything.....how do we plan this one?

DAMN ARNELOS that's alot of typing!

I'm certainly something of a pro-business conservative in RL and I'm strongly in favor of the current administration's policy on Iraq. Ironicly, I and many others like me share the liberals' attachment to international law, the difference is that they don't seem to quite understand that laws are just ink on paper unless you enforce them (the reality is that the leftist politicians both in Europe and the U.S. do understand this, but they're too scared to ever display or follow this understanding ).

Glad to hear this Arnelos, we stand on the same side in RL, most likely. In fact the odds of me being sent to Iraq are becoming more and more likely, even though I'm not finished with BT yet. The career field I've chosen is awfully short on volunteers, so I may see some action sooner than usual. Alas, I'm looking forward to it.

[Meshelic]

Time to change flags on my avatar. Either way, Israeli, German, or US flags represent my lineage, so I wear them all proudly... one at time though...

wow suddenly we've veered off course and into uncharted lands. What is this REAL LIFE stuff we're all talking about? Isn't Apolyton real??? What happened here? I was just sitting at home in Ubergorsk and suddenly all this talk of strange names like Iraq and United States and democrats and republics....woah!

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Just so you or anyone else knows in the event that anyone didn't hear this one already... BLAH BLAH BLAH ....... grasp for it.

He He He.

I've been building up to calling him a Democrat for weeks.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Panzer32
ermm, the DM isn't ALP... that would explain why slavery isn't abolished...

/edit: the drafting on Uber Isle was one of necessity, as it was going to be invaded... It does not go against ALP's policies to draft in emergencies.

hi ,

, nah it was not , ....

draft is useless when you use it when the enemy is miles away , you draft only when you know there is going to be some danger , ......

anyway , vote DIA next time , this way you are sure to have a strong nation

have a nice DIA day