Fundraising plan.

[Ben Kenobi]

The war against the malicious mongols has drained the treasury. We currently have 226 gold, down from several thousand.

We will need 682 gold to bribe one of the mongol calvary threatening Kazan. To reach this amount, I recommend the following city improvements be sold.

Sell granery in Naples
Sell sewer system in Capitol
Sell colosseum in Vigo
Sell aqueduct in Valencia
Sell harbour in Cordoba

226+120 +60 +100 +80 +60 = 686 gold.

What do the people think of this fundraising plan?

[Hydey]

How about deliver a freight or 2 to get even more money and leave the improvements alone.

[SCG]

selling improvements is certainly a viable option - are there other cities that offer alternative selling options?

are alternative fundraising options available? such as delivery of caravans this turn (demanded or undemanded?) or maybe the possibility of capturing a city by force (certainly risky even if an option)

other than the granery, i'd probably want more detailed info on the current proposed sells (i assume capitol and valencia are either small or not likely to grow in the next few turns?), that cordoba isn't dependant on the harbor for its current food supply and vigo is sufficiently happy to get along without a colosseum (we did recently have a thread on growing unhappiness)

[Ben Kenobi]

SCG-
Valencia currently has a food surplus of two, and will not grow for around 30 turns. Capitol is on food rationing, with -2 food per turn.

Cordoba does not lose a food without the harbour.
Vigo is fine without the colosseum, it is not large enough to warrant one. These are just some of the superfluous builds accumulated from capture or changes in circumstance.

Other ones will be the Aqueduct in Capitol, which makes sense if we are selling the sewer system.

I'm only doing this because I want to give our pres another option with the invading Mongols, depending on the military plan posted. To do this, we need the cash this turn.

Agreed, Hydey. We have lots of caravans being built, but I'm not in charge of making sure they get to where they are going. Perhaps our trade minister will want to comment here.

[SCG]

Originally posted by obiwan18
I'm only doing this because I want to give our pres another option with the invading Mongols, depending on the military plan posted. To do this, we need the cash this turn.

I'm not saying its a bad idea - i do the same thing to finance emergency situations in my games I just wanted to get a better idea of the overall picture with buildings. If the aquaduct in capitol is the only other proposed sell - we are running pretty lean on structures. I also look for barracks in cities not currently producing fighting units, redundant structures (captured cathedrals for example), or other cities with granaries, courthouses etc

[Ben Kenobi]

No, we are pretty lean right now. The only barracks/granery/courthouse we have is in Naples, which I think we do need. I like Cavebear's suggestion to surrender Kazan, although it will give the Mongols a city and one of our techs.

We might be able to rebribe the city in a turn or so, reinforcing our troops with yet more Mongols units.
I don't envy the job of our military advisor.

[cavebear]

We could do both. Looting Kazan to take the gold and the units out of the city is legitimate and examing our cities carefully to discover improvements that are not needed is also viable. I have to admit I had not thought to examine our cities for un-needed infrastructure.

to Obiwan

I also suggest that we designate some cities to build defensive units to be transported to the remote locations to keep the war at the fringes while we do the important things in our heartland.

Though I am not the Minister of War, I suggest we avoid the temptation to strip the nearest cities to Naples of defensive forces. That's just tempting a domino effect.

And we could improve the terrain of Naples from the current Grassland to Hills for a 100% defensive bonus. With City Walls and Hills, we ought to be able to hold Naples for many turns and keep the Mongols distracted.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I don't know what our normal cash flow is... but it seems imprudent to sell a lot of improvements to bribe one cavalry, leaving is still with no reserve for what the Mongols throw at us next time.

I suggested a defensive-offensive strategy in the other thread (the turn reports) which may or may not be feasible. If we bribe the Cavalry, it should be part of that larger strategy, IMO.

And deliver some 'vans...

Sell any and all Granaries, if we have more than one. Sell sewers/aqueducts in any cities with maxed growth... but you knew that of course

And turn up the tax rate if needed. We might as well raise some funds for a (defensive) war chest, rather than research sciences faster for the Mongols to steal

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
it seems imprudent to sell a lot of improvements to bribe one cavalry, leaving is still with no reserve for what the Mongols throw at us next time.

I think STYOM is quite right That's a lot of improvements simply to bribe one unit. IMHO we should only sell them if they're all really surplus to requirements. Even then, it mat be better to keep the money for other things.

RJM at Sleepers

[DrSpike]

All those improvements for 1 cavalry!! You are clearly someone who wishes to waste the taxpayers hard earned cash.

[SCG]

looking at the state of affairs in 1859, we were bringing in a net of 150 gold in taxes - how much on average do we get for our deliveries? And how much would be expected for deliveries locally? The turn report only lists one delivery for 204g. We definitely are spending quite a bit on the Mongols, so a change in overall policy does look to be in order. I am assuming we are in Republic rather than Democracy since the courthouse in Naples is deemed necessary.

Reguarding the mongols, if the war minister and the president feel we can gold onto our current holdings, by bribing a cavalry or 2, than perhaps a special one time war levy could be assessed. Past reports indicate we could gain an immediate boost to the treasury

Originally posted by cavebear in 1784
For informational purposes... 60-10-30 would give us 572 gold minus 42 maintenance costs per turn, 20 turns per tech, and our current Luxury benefits. I can understand the value of the taxes, it would be like 2 completed Caravans each turn

The results of that report sem to indicate we did raise the tax rate slightly. What is our current tax rate?

Presumably we have a better infrastructure now than we did then, so we should be able to quadruple our tax intake for a couple years, to provide a buffer again and then change our war strategy accordingly to solidify our position while we then concentrate on science for the space ship.

If we feel that we can't hold a city and wish to relinquish it, sell the city walls (if any - picture indicates we don't in Kazam), or sell the most expensive building, and move enough units into the city so that the last defender destroyed destroys the city, thereby not costing the loss of science.

If full retreat is chosen, we should deplete the treasury as much as possible at the end of the turn, and sell the most expensive structure before rehoming any Kazam units (assuming Kazam is the city to be surrendered). If we do that, perhaps raising the tax rate so we aren't so depleted next round, as well as don't risk giving away science that might be otherwise be immanently discovered.

Further information or debate would be useful

[Ben Kenobi]

I am assuming we are in Republic rather than Democracy since the courthouse in Naples is deemed necessary.


SCG, we are in a Democracy. The only benefit accrued from courthouses is an extra happy person, which can help keep a city content. I'll have to check and see if we can get away with selling that courthouse in Naples.

All those improvements for 1 cavalry!! You are clearly someone who wishes to waste the taxpayers hard earned cash.

Dr. Spike, Calvary are expensive to bribe! It may save us a city.

Presumably we have a better infrastructure now than we did then, so we should be able to quadruple our tax intake for a couple years, to provide a buffer again and then change our war strategy accordingly to solidify our position while we then concentrate on science for the space ship.

Excellent suggestion, SCG! A stitch in time...

[JCP]

No hope for defending Kazan against that damned cavalry, by rushbuying a strong defender ?
(if we have 2 rifles and 1 alpine, it's a good defense, and if cavalry kills one, it will be weak and a rifleman may kill it !)

[DrSpike]

If it has no walls then it's toast. Besides if we were going to rush anything it would be a counterattacker.

[JCP]

Sorry, I didn't see the 1865 screenshot when I posted my reply. I thought the question was only about one cavalry !

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Besides, if we wanted to rush a strong defender OR attacker, we needed to do that in the previous turn. It won't be built until after next turn, as it stands (and presumably the Mongrels will have attacked and captured by then).

Perhaps rushbuying in Naples is a better move? Rush an Armor, or Cav...? Incrementally of course.

Since the attackers are all adjacent to Kazan in the last screenshot, why not:

(IF the terrain our besiegers are on doesn't give them bonuses), attack from inside the city against the Cavalry, using our 'defenders'. Cavalry defend quite poorly, so we may be able to take out a stack with riflemen... and the riflemen have a better chance of taking out the stacks by attacking, then they do of surviving multiple attacks from the stacked cavalry.

If we have nothing in Kazan to attack with, I propose that we switch the defenders in Kazan with the defenders in Naples (RR= 0 move cost) and attack from Kazan with defensive units against the stacks. If we win, our defenders are still in the city (albeit unfortified). If we lose, we were going to lose anyway. The only risk is to Naples - taking defenders from Naples and attacking out of Kazan is risky. If we don't have much in Naples, we may have to bite the bullet and consolidate there.

[SCG]

from the screenshot, it looks like best case has us bribing 1 cavalry, using it to kill the injured 1 and hoping for vet status, so we can take out the other stack, using freights to provide funds to rushbuild city walls and taking on the cannon next turn. Looks like the cruiser is too far out of reach to take out the transport. removal of transportation would also allow time to replenish our treasury.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by SCG
from the screenshot, it looks like best case has us bribing 1 cavalry, using it to kill the injured 1 and hoping for vet status, so we can take out the other stack, using freights to provide funds to rushbuild city walls and taking on the cannon next turn. Looks like the cruiser is too far out of reach to take out the transport. removal of transportation would also allow time to replenish our treasury.

The ship in Naples is a non-vet Destroyer, we don't have enough gold to bribe the single Cavalry, and wouldn't the Mongols get to attack us before rushed City Walls became activated?

[SCG]

Originally posted by cavebear
The ship in Naples is a non-vet Destroyer

ah, so it is, first glance looked a bit flatter like a cruiser.

we don't have enough gold to bribe the single Cavalry

that was the idea of selling extraneous improvements was for. we do have enough that we can purchace one of the cavalry :b

and wouldn't the Mongols get to attack us before rushed City Walls became activated?

if we capture or kill everything in those 3 spaces, the only thing that could reach us at full strength would be a 2-move unit, all we see is the cannon, although there could be another cavalry under it? I don't remember what the AI determines is priority when units are stacked as to what to display.

as for the extra funds for city walls next turn, if we can't afford to sell naples's courthouse, it was indicated we might be able to deliver some freight this turn locally

Originally posted by obiwan18
Agreed, Hydey. We have lots of caravans being built, but I'm not in charge of making sure they get to where they are going. Perhaps our trade minister will want to comment here.

Anyway, I can only go on what is provided by the various elected officials right now, so as always, comments and further info and debate are welcome

[H Tower]

we could definitely deliver some freight this turn, whether we get much is a different proposition. although having multiple continents will help.

[SCG]

Originally posted by H Tower
we could definitely deliver some freight this turn, whether we get much is a different proposition. although having multiple continents will help.

Is Kazam currently building anything? (and if so how far along is it?) Assuming no other funds other than sell what was initially proposed - we have 230 gold after buying the cavalry. city walls are 240 gold bought from scratch (via barracks or temple) or 158 gold starting with 1 shield. if we deliver anything, we would almost certainly have enough to buy the city walls. Granted, this would preclude any other rush-buying this turn, hense the suggestion earlier to raise taxes for a couple turns before dropping back into research mode.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

If we have multiple continents, won't it take multiple turns to deliver the freight? Unless there are Transports standing by...

Is there ONLY the Destroyer in Naples? If so, my plan will obviously fail :

[cavebear]

We would have to sell a lot to raise 400 more gold, and we would be flat broke after that. No matter how I look at units available to us, I can't see a way to take out the whole Mongol force (I'd be thrilled to be wrong, though). And we are assuming that there are no more Mongol transports nearby with more units.

We could fight to keep Kazan and lose Naples and Kerman as a result.

I think the question is "What action gives us the best chance to get our SS landed?" I think it is time to be cold-blooded about this. Conslidate in Naples to better
avoid larger losses, and go on from there. I am prepared to sacrifice all our cities near the Mongols if it means we succeed in our SS mission.

[cavebear]

Naples:

[H Tower]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
If we have multiple continents, won't it take multiple turns to deliver the freight? Unless there are Transports standing by...

i have a transport network set up that can deliver a freight from end of the nation to the other in one direction. going the other direction requires an extra turn

[SCG]

Originally posted by cavebear
We would have to sell a lot to raise 400 more gold

according to obiwan18:

Originally posted by obiwan18
We currently have 226 gold

Sell granery in Naples
Sell sewer system in Capitol
Sell colosseum in Vigo
Sell aqueduct in Valencia
Sell harbour in Cordoba

226+120 +60 +100 +80 +60 = 686 gold.

I misread the math originally. by that we have 4 gold, and would need to raise anywhere up to 236 more gold, depending on the current build status (which is?)

It was suggested we could also sell the courthouse in naples, pending what can be done to keep it happy.

we would be flat broke after that.

again, hense the suggestion to raise taxes for a couple turns

Originally posted by cavebear
No matter how I look at units available to us, I can't see a way to take out the whole Mongol force (I'd be thrilled to be wrong, though).

the single cavalry would have a decent chance of killing the other 2 stacks (first the flatlands, then the the hills if makes vet) what else do we have in the surrounding cities? we do have railroad between naples and kerman, so deployment of units should be possible, depending on what is left, either to attack or defend.

And we are assuming that there are no more Mongol transports nearby with more units.

very true - and a wounded, green destroyer won't be much help in taking out transports I'd have to repeat STYOM's question: are there other naval units in the area?

We could fight to keep Kazan and lose Naples and Kerman as a result.

also very true. All the info posted so far indicates the AI is trying to attack naples via Kazam, and now Kazam via naval transportation. If there have been other naval advances (we've eliminated reinforcements via Quinsay atm), that could make a big difference.

I think the question is "What action gives us the best chance to get our SS landed?" I think it is time to be cold-blooded about this. Conslidate in Naples to better
avoid larger losses, and go on from there. I am prepared to sacrifice all our cities near the Mongols if it means we succeed in our SS mission.

If we do retreat, it still might be a good idea to buy the cavalry to make a dent in the attacking forces, or at least add one more defender to the city (if we have 4 defenders in a size 4 city, we don't lose a tech when its destroyed - how are the mogols on science tech and cities?)

hmm. i see we have a picture of naples units now

If you're serious about abandoning Kazam, we could sacrifice the 2 freights to avoid losing a tech (assuming the spy is the only unit defending Kazam atm)

anyway, my preference at this point would still be to take a couple round hits to the science to try and build up the treasury again and try and hang onto the cities we have (if we take any others, it should be to consolidate our holdins on the island (west of Quinsay)), and then get back on track - based on the info we have atm, it looks feasible to me

[War4ever]

i shall sit and watch this unfold...one dissident

[atomant]

I think we should actually swap as much construction (especially freights) to military units if possible, then rush build them.

I believe it is substanitally cheaper to do this than rush build from scratch. Then once we build infrastructure in cities (ie the items that are under construction now), we should swap them over cav or something bigger, better or more dastardly.

This will take a few turns to realise, but it is better to have a sizeable army than a piecemeal one. If we lose Kazan in the meantime, then so be it, we can always take it back with our new improved and expanded army. I believe it was SunTzu that said you must prepare the battlefield in order to assure victory, and you should only fight if you know you can win.

By preparation we should be building road and rail to mongol cities so we can blitzkrieg them. By knowing we can win, we need an army of suitable size. Unless we can do both, as 20 20 hindsight has demonstrated, there is no point in attacking with a diplomat and a cav.

Lets hold back a turn or three until we can blast them into snail snot. We do not need a solution imediately, what we need in the medium term is to remove the Mongol parasitic infestation from the shores of our treasured land.....

[H Tower]

you're advocating a complete shift away from the present course of our country. not to mention that we have no money to rush build units like you suggest

[atomant]

Yes I am aren't I. But the need is there. The mongols are encroaching. Provided the mandate is limited to removing from our shores, the shift in strategy is not that great.

If we must rush a single unit, why not a fighter, it can attack numerous times in one turn and most of the attackers are low on the defensive side of things and if we lose the fighter at the end of turn X, tough luck, the pilot can have an appropriate memorial on Alpha Centauri.

As for the cash side of things, hey I am banker, I use other peoples money. But seriously though, I am not advocating that we rush build an entire army in one turn, but over a few (say five-ten).... then we advance, remove the mongols and go back to building space ships. Place the new army in storage for the next invasion. Remember in the grand scheme of things, ten turns is not a great amount of time. This is how I play at home.... Sometimes an aggressive defensive policy is better thanthe purely reactive strategy we have now. If we manage things correctly we should be able to assemble a decent force, without radically changing our sci/luc/tax rates.

IMHO it is the Mongol's fault for starting this in the first place, lets finish it once and for all and go back to building the ship. I say it is open season on the Mongols, season closes when they leave.