Switching Sides --The Ultimate Challenge

DilithiumDad · December 20, 2000, 12:34

For those of you looking to make single-player challenging again, try this. Start a regular game on your preferred map configeration as any faction. Now keep an eye on your faction might once things stabilize around 2150 or so. As soon as you hit #1 in might (or become #1 by some preset factor --say 25% higher than the #2 faction) your must now SWITCH PLACES WITH THE WEAKEST AI FACTION.

To do this, enter the scenario editor (control K). This will mark your score as "CHEATED", which is true in that you are cheating AGAINST yourself. Now activate "switch sides". You will get a list of factions. Choose the faction that is #7 in might.

Now your challenge is to win by any kind of victory, starting from the very basement. The toughest part of this is not living with the horrible mistakes made by the bottom-ranking AI player, which is pretty bad, but rather dealing with the #1 ranking monster you created. If you started as U of P and are now the Spartans, you will have to fight the faction you build up for the first 50-70 years. And your old faction will probably have some powerful allies as well --possibly the ones you cultivated.

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Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

DilithiumDad · December 20, 2000, 12:43

So what does a "switcheroo" game look like? Usually, the bottom-ranking faction will be Spartans or Believers. Almost always, they will have failed to research Centauri Ecology and will not have done any terraforming. This is easily enough to doom a faction to the cellar. Once I took over the Spartans to find that they were being defeated in battle by the Morganites! Morgan was sending rover and probes and was conquering bases by mind control and conventional forces. Turning around the military situation while trying to jump-start terraforming was quite a challenge. On top of that, my former U of P faction was in Vendetta. Fortunately, I was able to get tech from some of the U of P's enemies (Lal in particular).

Miriam is a little easier to turn around than Santiago. First step is to cancel all those Vendettas with everyone else on the planet and start trading techs. Morgan is the easiest to turn around. Usually his only problem is over-use of Free Market and a failure to found enough bases.

People complain about "accelerated start" that leaves you with poor terraforming, random tech, and bases in drone riots or starvation. Switching to the weakest faction is a hundred times worse --everything is totally fouled up.

It's very satisfying to see your power bar zoom from zero to hero in a few decades time. It's always very easy to pinpoint the exact year you took over the weak faction. Interestingly, your own former faction does not suffer immediate ill effects from losing your stewardship. Indeed, your former faction may actually get even stronger because it gets all those AI faction bonuses.

RedFred · December 20, 2000, 14:18

Wow! What a great idea DD. I'll be giving it a shot. The only difficulty I see with including OO's proviso about a set date is that sometimes a AI faction will get on a roll or start in the jungle or something so you may not be first on the depth chart by 2150.

Zonk · December 20, 2000, 17:50

Yes, this is a great idea! One of the reasons why I read these posts. I've been playing since the game was released, and like many players, have gone through periods where I didn't play for weeks, maybe a couple of months at one point. Ideas like this, plus the various strategies employed by the other players, make the game fresh and exciting.

One thing which I would like to contribute, and possibly other players have encountered, is the use of map size. I fell into the habit of playing customized map sizes, playing humongous size maps which actually benefitted me, as I play a builder style early game. Now, I've returned to playing the Huge map, and it gives the AI a little more clout, especially if you get in a Ursurper/Miriam sandwich or Chang arrives early for Christmas. This map selection may seem obvious, but there is a great temptation to play with overly-large maps, especially with some of the supercomputers our fellow SMACers have.

I hope this wasnt too much off-topic.

Thanks all, and Merry Christmas, especially to the posters who take the time to share their knowledge and experience and tolerate endless questions. But isn't that the idea of a forum like this? If is wasn't for the newbies, it would eventually die out.

Ogie Oglethorpe · December 20, 2000, 18:04

Unca Red,

Really the point of the challenge is not so much for your original faction to play to #1 power position but to take the crappiest start 50 yrs the AI can give you. Granted if you play your original faction well and have snagged SPs and are set up thar makes your original faction a powerhouse. But realistically the more important aspect is to take the worst the AI can give you.

I just tried this starting with Dee. I switcherooed and wouldn't you know it ended up with Domai. Not much challenge, I have a feeling this is gonna be too easy. Beelined to Ind Economics and ran FM and was back in the hunt w/in 50 yrs. Still have yet to make any faction contacts.

Og

WhiteElephants · December 20, 2000, 18:41

This might be slightly off topic, but I have to some what agree with Zonk about the map sizes though I still feel anything larger than standard is too large despite the fact that Vel pointed out a chopper could circle the globe on a map of this size.

RedFred · December 20, 2000, 20:15

A good defence of the 50 years idea Og, but I may yet do it the number 1 + 25% way. The reason being is that it may reward skillful play for the first part of the game. The quicker you can hit the high water mark and switch factions (hopefully) the less likely the faction you wind up with will be on the verge of being eradicated.

Either way it is a fine idea and I'll be giving it a go.

Wiglaf · December 21, 2000, 01:05

I like that idea, although it brings back memories of me playing civ2 and switching places to become first instead of last

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The Year 2000 - dawn of the Cheery O's

Ogie Oglethorpe · December 21, 2000, 01:31

D-dad,

I recommend a definite date vs. the 25% percent approach. I say this because if one simply picks UoP one can achieve that very quickly and the effect will not be as dramatic as if one waited until 2150.

Now we need to make sure on 2149 you aren't intentionally doing something really stupid to damage you original faction such as changing production from an SP that you almost had complete to a 1-1-1 unit effectively wasting hundreds of minerals.

Og

DilithiumDad · December 21, 2000, 16:31

Thank you for that point! Yes, having a might threshold is better than a date threshold. Your major goal in the pre-switch period is to jump up the power scale so you can make the jump. Indeed, if you wait too long you will arrive just as a faction is about to be eliminated by conquest.

I agree that sizes beyond Huge are too large. But larger maps tend to favor the AI, which needs time to itself to develop properly and complete its inefficient terraforming (building all possible roads first? crazy). Standard is too small and favors rover rush. Smaller sizes look more like a chess board and less like a planet (I know, it's always just a chess board). I suggest Large or Huge for this challenge. Even on standard, you may find that you have swtiched into an impossible military situation (which can be fun, too, don't get me wrong!).

WhiteElephants · December 21, 2000, 17:57

DD, Well you could be right about the larger map sizes favoring the AI as I'm not in favor of massive amounts of micromanagement and therefore biased. But, I tend to think that the human player is most vulnerable during the early stages of the game.

Gregurabi · December 22, 2000, 18:11

Cool idea! I started one of these games - SMACX, Transcend, Large map, all random factions, standard rules except for directed research. Game gave me Sven; I played with a focus on growth/expansion and managed to attain the #1 position on the graphs by 2128. Switched to the weakest, who happened to be Cha Dawn.

It seems that I've inherited some of the AI's advantages. When I made an SE change (to Planned), it only cost me 24 e.c. instead of the normal 40. Also, I have fewer drones than I should -- my HQ is size 3, with no drones to quell! (I have a garrison and a rover in the base, but they aren't needed as police. They're there because the Caretakers are close to me.)

Shortly after I made the switch, Sven called for an election, and bribed me (25) to vote for him. (Without someone's support, Miriam would've won. I'd met everyone shortly before the switch, but didn't call for an election because I didn't think I'd win.) Anyway, this gave me everyone's comm frequencies, so I called everyone up and traded techs. Since I was so weak, they were all nice and friendly; and now I'm the tech leader. (One of the AIs even traded me a tech for my maps! Boy, is that ever a switch from normal behavior....) Even the Caretakers haven't attacked yet.

DilithiumDad · December 27, 2000, 12:16

You're right about inheriting some of the AI's advantages --mainly it shows up as playing on a lower level --Librarian or Thinker based on the cost of SE switching and the number of drones. There are no other inherited advantages, though.

2128 is pretty early for the switch --I would probably have waited until I had the Pirates really dominant and The Cult had really dug themselves into a hole. As it is, at 2128 Cha Dawn is behind mainly because of his late start. The Cult is not really significant until they get Centauri Genetics, which is usually 2200 or later.

zsozso · February 3, 2001, 11:36

DD, this is a great idea!
What I love in this idea is, that you play against your own style - the better empire you build, the tougher it is to knock it down.

I started to play on huge map of planet with all random factions, standard rules except directed research.

For a start-luck (or unluck for the after-switch time?) I got Zak on the central continent near the uranium flats. Nobody disturbed in the first 50 turns and I built a very nice empire with 4 major early SPs completed (WP, VW, PTS, HG). I had about 30% lead over the Caretakers when I switched to Miriam (who else would have been the weakest

).

Took me about 30 turns to bootstrap the empire and build a little army to start whacking the Usurpers who were next to me (already in war when I took Miriam) on the continent with the freshwater sea. Besides eliminating Marr (toward the east side of the continent), I also expanded all the way up north to Ruins by the end of the century. I was second in might then. Then I had to re-group my army, build some cruiser transports plus the Maritime Control Center (to increase range) in order to take on Zak (former me), who continued his power-bar growth steadily, so he was still quite ahead of me (even though I kept stealing his techs but he had much higher population). Once I set foot on his continent with two armies of gatling rovers (6-7 in each army escorted by some armored rovers and probe teams) - one attacking from south the other from west, the power graph changed suddenly: Zak started a steap drop losing half his bases in the next 10 turns.

So in 2220, I (as Miriam) became number 1 again. It was fun so far. But it would be an easy conquer victory from here on.

BUT I realized, the challenge can be made even more fun by iterating it further: when you reached number one position with the new faction, then switch again to the last AI faction! It is the Free Drones this time in my game, they only have 3 well-established and 1 brand new base, negligible army. That's going to be double-fun to play them against 2 powerful former factions of mine. And if I can manage to bring Domai up to #1, then I could switch again...

I invite other people to try this hardened version of the challenge: how many iterations can you go through, i.e. how many factions can you bring up from last to first in a single game? Is it possible to do a full rotation and win the game with the seventh faction you play with ? I already blew that in my current game as I eradicated the Usurpers already as Miriam...
But mauybe I can achieve to win with the 6th faction.
[This message has been edited by zsozso (edited February 03, 2001).]

Blake · February 3, 2001, 23:10

Thought I'd give it a shot.

Random factions on huge map of planet.

Started with Sven in southern ocean, built a nice little empire and ran FM, making for great infrastructure devlopment, VW about 70% complete. 2160 I am top on charts so say bye to the Pirates and take on Morgan.

Morgan's empire is three bases and a few terraformers. He is also on the Mosoon jungle. *sigh*. I switch production to colony pods rush buying them at maximum rate and plaster the uncontested jungle in bases. I send a unity foil to meet the pirates, and get a pact. I find Zak is also on the jungle continent, he also pacts. Once I get to ind-auto I start operation "money bags", first objective is to get PEG, which I just suceed in doing by cashing all my crawlers and a loan from Zak and Sven, it's worth it though as my energy almost doubles overnight.

Once I get tree farms I implement a GA pop boom, and my might catches up to Sven and Dee (2230). Miriam is weakest so I give her a giant wad of cash. She then stops talking to me, freak. Second council election I bribe Miriam to vote for Sven using tech. I also bring Domai (Miriams neighbour) up to low-par with tech.

Miriams empire is on the eastern side of freshwater sea, and is a sad state of affairs. All terraforming is limited to farm+mine. She does have lots of bases though. I cancel orders for all units and scrap most of her army and get the formers planting forest. I ally with Domai, Morgan and Zak and get tech gifts from all.

40 years later I'm 3rd lowest on power chart but up to play in tech, as I had just probed Domai for everything he was worth, and the twit didn't break the pact. Then Dee researched MMI and I had the good fortune to have a skimship probe outside Gaia's landing.

I loan from morgan secured the two MMI SP's and with newly aquired fusion and chaos technology I set all bases to Chaos Choppers. Dee has lots of worms and the neural amp, so some of my choppers get the empath treatment and they clear out gaia's landing (which is nearest to me, and quite isolated from the rest of gaianland). Choppers stream into Gaia's landing and proceed to completely clean out the gaian "core" bases in garland crater, my elite drop rover takes her three SP bases and Dee offers a hefty sum for peace. Miriam now has 6 SP's (Skybase Acadamy, Cyborg Factory, Empath Guild, Asectic Virtues, WP, Neural Amp) and undoutbtly the most powerful airforce on planet. Im really not looking forward to switching to Cult, which is on that northen island, I think I'll actually switch to Cult before becoming #1 with Miriam, because Miriam would just be too damn strong.

I had an idea, because there are several very well developed factions in such a game it could make a usful mid-game scenerio, thoughts?

Ogie Oglethorpe · February 6, 2001, 01:34

Zso and D-dad,

Great idea of second and more iterations.

The challenge is realistiaclly then the object is the total number of switches one can achieve before mandatory retirement.

OTOH since the AI know completley nothing about X-chopper use the mid game might be very fruitful for a number of switches.

Og

DilithiumDad · February 6, 2001, 12:17

I agree that the number of switches would be the goal. The dream would be to "run the deck" and play all 7 factions before Transcendence. This would be much more possible with SMACX than SMAC, with the extra tech and greater obstacles presented by the native life.

I am impressed by how well the AI does when it takes over a human-run faction. Poor terraforming and lack of infrastrcutre are really their main weaknesses! Give them good terraforming, tech and base facilities and they do quite well!

[This message has been edited by DilithiumDad (edited February 06, 2001).]

Gregurabi · February 6, 2001, 15:13

The AI also derives tremendous benefit from your (or at least my) unit designs. A normal AI will never build a probe foil -- but if you build one before switching (or, maybe, even if you design one but don't build it) the AI will know about it and build it. It seems likely that the AI would be able to use other interesting unit designs as well, though I haven't experimented with this challenge enough to know which units it will "like".