Dissappointed CTP 2 Player!!!

Waylander · February 2, 2001, 17:12

I had not played Civilisation since the glorious days of the Amiga and thought I would return to it by purchasing Call to Power 2. I was incredibly disappointed as it came nowhere near to the addictive pleasure I remembered from the original. Is SMAC worth a try or it does it suffer from the same A.I weaknesses as Call to Power 2? I naively assumed that a game with such development history and customer support would be bug free, have a sophisticated "realistic" and appropriately responsive A.I. How wrong I was!!!

I would be interested to hear the views of anyone who has played both.I know SMAC is available very cheaply now but I am reluctant to spend my limited gaming time on something that offers no real startegic challenge.

Cheers, Waylander.

WhiteElephants · February 2, 2001, 17:31

I thought all CTP2 players were disgrunteled...

Anyway, lets not confuse Civilization and CTP. One is Sid Meier and the other is, well, crap from what I understand. My disclaimer: I've never played CTP I've only heard the woes of multiple CTP players.

So to answer your question: Yes, the AI is a pushover at times. Yes, the game has bugs that won't be fixed. And Yes, it is thus far the best Civ type game I've played.

Sarxis · February 2, 2001, 18:58

I have played all (CTP 1&2, SMAC[x], CIV I, II) and my opinion is that SMAC[x] is definately the best CIV style game to date!

And, yes, you will never find a perfect AI (yet) but at least there are play by email and online multiplayer options that work in AC/X. At the most difficult levels the computer can put up a fight in SMAC[x], so I think you won't be disappointed.

Get it!

Blake · February 2, 2001, 19:17

I'm a dedicated SMAX player who got CTP2 because it was on sale (if I had seen the box I would have figured it was crap from the timeline, aeroplanes from 500AD to 1500AD?!!, but I got it mailorder).

I assure you the SMAC/X diplomacy will not dissapoint you, the AI leaders have "real" personalities, unlike the ACCEPTED, REJECTED "personalities" of CTP2 leaders, they can make semi good judgements (like surrendering once them are doomed to lose, not trading special project (aka, wonder) techs) the SMAC diplomacy is fun, unlike CTP2.

SMAC also has a detailed, dynamic plot which unfolds as you play, I find this makes it a much more interesting game and doesn't impact replayability in the least.

Yes, the AI can be a pushover at times, they do stupid things but they don't do really boneheaded things (like smashing dozens of units into a mountain fortress, altough CTP2 doesn't do that either) play on hardest difficulty and it really can be quite difficult to win, and once or twice the AI has really suprised me with it's tatical skills, like amassing an army outside of one of my cities before charging it in all at once, rather than dribbling the units in one at a time. And co-ordinated attacks between two or more factions on one of my bases, I admit I have seen such things only rarely, but atleast it shows the programmers TRIED, which is more than the CTP2 AI programmers did.

My only complaint is that SMAC has more bugs than CTP2, in fact I havn't encountered a bug yet in CTP2 (altough I've encountered dubious features, especially for a game claiming some form of historical accuracy). SMAC has bugs a plenty, but none game breaking and you hardly notice them unless you look for them.

The above was just a long way of saying:
CTP2 BAD
SMAX GOOD, buy it!

Wiglaf · February 2, 2001, 20:31

SMAC is basically a more advanced civ2 - ctp2 was the opposite. SMAC has more victory conditions, graphics, diplomatic options, and the AI is not as bad as CTP!It's alive! Santiago is satan!

Enjoy it, buy it, end of discussion

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The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

Jasonian · February 2, 2001, 20:42

SMAC isn't just a game; it's an experience. And it's also the only game like this that has such well built characters, I found myself yelling at the AI computer oppoents, preaching my ethics and mocking their obviously misguided ones.

Heh.

waynehead · February 2, 2001, 20:42

I've played 'em all, too, and nothing beats SMAC/X. Trust me on this - the different personalities/agendas/social structure makes the game infinitely replayable and addicting.

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My sorry excuse for a website

February 3, 2001, 08:10

quote:

Originally posted by WhiteElephants on 02-02-2001 04:31 PM
I thought all CTP2 players were disgrunteled...

hardly...

Waylander · February 3, 2001, 16:59

Thanks for your replies. You've convinced me!!!
I'll buy it, play it and if you're interested I'll let you know what I think.

Just changing topic slightly, which turn based, single player game in your view has offered the best strategic / tactical challenge in recent years?

Cheers, Waylander.

Basil · February 3, 2001, 17:42

SMAC is a wonderful game, with only one major problem. That problem is, unfortunately, the AI - particularly with respect to managing its economy. The diplomacy model is really good and the AI personalities are well developed - that is one of the game's strengths. The combat AI isn't great, with major holes, but it can surprise you once in a while too. Where the AI really falls down is in long-term management of its economy. For this reason I found the CivII AI to be a tougher opponent, not because it was better but because the economic rules were simpler and so it was more capable of staying competitive into the end game.

I hear that the AI for FreeCiv is really tough and does some tactically clever things, but I've never played it myself. But if you're comfortable with Linux I'd recommend checking it out.

Wiglaf · February 3, 2001, 19:49

quote:

Just changing topic slightly, which turn based, single player game in your view has offered the best strategic / tactical challenge in recent years?

Civ2. Let me go in to detail:

SMAC is about 50 times more complex than civ1 and civ2 combined could dream of. It has morale, it has awesome diplomacy, it has 3D terrain, personalities for every faction, planetary council, etc, etc, etc.

The ONLY problem in this whole game, as was mentioned, is the AI. It has great difficulty managing all of this stuff. If you play as a strong faction and learn its strengths by playing for days, you will win a bit more than normal, regardless of difficulty. But if you are in for a challange, take away some rainfall, make the planet rocky, and turn research to blind.

I bought this game about a year ago, and I've enjoyed it to this day. I think civ2 was harder because it was simpler on the computer. SMAC, however, innovates beyond all believe, and it deserves credit.

Buy it, you'll play it as long as civ2. It's a LITTLE bit easier, but as long as you don't go out of your way to modify the rules and all, you'll have a great time, and a harder time. I can't get elected Planetary Governor in civ2, I can't bribe for bases in civ2, and I can't see 3D terrain in civ2.

Bottom line: $15 isn't a lot for a game you'll play for years on end. And hardly anything is wrong with it!

ps, look into getting the expansion pack or the patch

Have fun, and don't play too long!

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The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

WhiteElephants · February 4, 2001, 19:27

quote:

hardly...

Wiglaf · February 4, 2001, 19:45

What? That's the third or fourth hardly in this darn thread

[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited February 04, 2001).]

Mars_Col_44 · February 5, 2001, 15:33

Civ 1 and 2 were great. CTP 1, while it had some neat things, became very tedious; I just can't get excited about even trying CTP2. SMAC --- I am addicted to and highly recommend SMAC with the Alien Crossfire expansion pack. Also, get all the patches(goto firaxis.com) and install them in order.

The SMAC/SMAX opponents can indeed make the game very interesting/challenging! Certain opponents can even defeat you, especially at the beginning phase if you have the bad luck to land near them. As SMACed sez, Santiago can be quite a challenge. Miriam can indeed be a challenge at the beginning phase of the game. Yang can give you a run for the money. The alien factions in SMAX can almost too easily defeat you at the beginning and later (they almost seem too powerful if they have the good luck of being unmolested, so I hate even to play against them).

SMAC/SMAX makes time really zip by!
[This message has been edited by Mars_Col_44 (edited February 05, 2001).]

Misotu · February 5, 2001, 19:29

I'm afraid CTP was just Civ with bells on. SMAC was the real departure. I bought both games together, full price. I have played a grand total of precisely 3 CTP games, and haven't even looked at it in well over a year. It's a bore ...

But if we are assured that CTP fans are "hardly" disappointed, then I guess I stand corrected. There are probably people out there who want less from a game than I do

Purple · February 5, 2001, 19:42

I've been playing CTP2 since it was given me as a Christmas gift, but just ditched it and returned to SMAC/X. As Mars said, it's just too tedious. There were impressive innovations in CTP1 and a few refinements in CTP2, but it still plays like it were designed by committee. It really suffers in this respect, especially compared to the thoughtful, mostly quite well integrated design of SMAC/X.

But the worst offense is that CTP doesn't draw me in the way SMAC/X does. There's just no emotional buy-in. After two years of playing the latter, there are still surprises and challenges, especially with the possibility of playing against a new mix of opponents.

I'm really looking forward to being dazzled by Civ III (hope the expectations can be met), but in the meantime I'm happy with SMAC/X.

Wiglaf · February 5, 2001, 22:47

dp
[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited February 05, 2001).]

Wiglaf · February 5, 2001, 23:04

Civ3 has to live up to expectations - civ1 did, civ2 did, alpha centauri did, gettysburg did, antietam did - if it didn't, it would be Sid's first messup.

Don't worry
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited February 06, 2001).]

February 6, 2001, 04:20

above post edited to fix a problem with the code...
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited February 06, 2001).]

Wiglaf · February 6, 2001, 22:01

Thought something was wrong there

Thanks

Myronides · February 7, 2001, 15:58

I 've played them all too, SMAC is the best, CTP series the worst. Can't wait for CIV3 though... I 'm sure it will be even more interesting from what we plyed so far.

Adalbertus · February 10, 2001, 18:59

Blake:

CTP2 has the sort of annoying, evening destroying bugs which stop a game after playing half through by means of a reproducible crash. This ruins a day and is the reason why I don't want to play it anymore. Of what sort are the bugs in SMAC?

SMACed:
In your list of good Sid games you forgot Pirates! and Railroad Tycoon which I still play from time to time ...

Blake · February 10, 2001, 20:33

quote:

Originally posted by Adalbertus on 02-10-2001 05:59 PM
Blake:

CTP2 has the sort of annoying, evening destroying bugs which stop a game after playing half through by means of a reproducible crash. This ruins a day and is the reason why I don't want to play it anymore. Of what sort are the bugs in SMAC?

SMAC has some weird bugs, the most hated must be the terranx.exe crash which causes the game to crash. It only afflicts some people and can be worked around sometimes. I believe there's an option which generally eliminates it. But SMAC has a great auto-save system anyway, so if it barfs just reload from a couple of turns back. The one time I used the autosave in CTP2 it forgot I had just researched a tech. sheesh. But anyway, game crashes sometimes, can be worked around.

Other bugs are minor and obscure, mainly stuff not working exactly as the help says it should (but you'd have to be an accountant to notice), theres a few ways to get "free" resources. But the game is generally balanced and doesn't have such retarted concepts as CTP2 (FARMERS which can feed a city of 200000 in the north pole?!!, a democracy where everyone is fed minimum rations and works for 14 hours a day for half a cent?!!, and there CONTENT to be treated that way?!!, in a police state sure but not a goddamn democracy!!!). The Smac bugs are weird but as a whole SMAC works a lot better than CTP2.

In the end I can find plenty of things to complain about in CTP2, yet I can't for SMAC, minor irritations sure but nothing worth ranting about.

A geez, I'm getting bored just thinking about CTP2, gotta play SMAX

February 10, 2001, 20:57

I'm not going to buy CtP2 myself, anyway