What is your greatest wish for Civ 4?

[Dale]

Originally posted by Protra3211
I hope diplomacy is well be well thought out as this is the cornerstone of playing civilization,
I feel it can make or break the game as you want to feel you are dealing with a real person and not just a program.For example SMACK AI personalities worked well in diplomatic exchanges it was the best feature of the game. It can be done.
But if not it can be moded just look at games like CTP2 which had almost no diplomacy smarts at all has been updated and at least shows signs of life. Thanks to Dale Kent!

You're welcome, and rest assured I will be looking at modding Civ4 where-ever I think it needs it.

Dale


BTW HEX!

Empty your PM box.

[hexagonian]

Box is emptied...

or email me my normal address.

[Tommar]

Originally posted by Adagio


If the modding possibilities is as good as they say it is it *might* be possible to make the workshop, but it wont be easy since you have to change the way units "works". I'm pretty sceptical about this though, so I don't believe this can be done, but maybe I'll be suprised when the game is released and we can finally see what can be done and what can't be done



One of the reasons why I don't like it is because it makes the game too complex without any real advantages. (I have to admit I haven't played many games of SMAC, so if I had gotten into the game earlier I might have liked it now). In Civ games I prefer to have a set of units to be used instead of a set of Lego toys so I can assemble my own unit. In the end it'll probably just end up with same units for each game and then you could ask why didn't Firaxis just make these units the standard units in the game?
Or at least that's how I see it, but of course (as mentioned) I could have a different oppinion on this if I actually had played a descent amount of games

There's also another reason why I hate it, but a few months ago I was told a way to avoid that "problem" so I'm not going to mention that. I haven't tested it yet though so I can't be sure it actually works



* Adagio wonders if the above actually makes any sense

Yes, that makes sense, thanks for explaining.

Yes, the Workshop allows you to make some very uber units (like Deathspheres), and hence make you wonder why they don't appear by default. But they cost a lot a build. Tone them down a bit, via the Workshop, and they become much more cost effective to build, but yet still quite powerful.

The Workshop does make things more complex, but more interesting. You are given the choice to make very powerful units at high cost, or weaker units, at lower cost. Most times, building the weaker units makes more sense, so it's not always clear which is "better".

I also like the Workshop for being able to eliminate obsolete units from the build list or to make upgrades globally. Clicking the same thing over and over again is not fun, it's tedious.

This is a major factor that game devs need to learn, and the fact that the Design Workshop helps to eliminate "clicking the same thing over and over again" is it's greatest appeal to me, and is much more important than the ability to create custom units.

Though making a flying tractor, so heavily armored that it brings most units down that try to attack it, is fun. It's not cost-effective. But it's fun

Very cost-effective is adding drop pods to colony units.

[Adagio]

I also like the Workshop for being able to eliminate obsolete units from the build list or to make upgrades globally. Clicking the same thing over and over again is not fun, it's tedious.

I agree that upgrading one unit at a time can be annoying, but even Civ3 has a way to upgrade all of one type of unit with two clicks so I can't see how this makes the Workshop special?

You are given the choice to make very powerful units at high cost, or weaker units, at lower cost. Most times, building the weaker units makes more sense, so it's not always clear which is "better".

This could be done just as well if the game shipped with 2-3 different types for each unit: 1 powerfull but expensive, 1 standard but a bit cheaper and 1 less powerful but the cheapest
That way you still get the options without the annoying micromanagement with the workshop

[GeoModder]

You could always rely on the game to 'prototype' you a bunch of units and only use those.
Less micromanagement, but your base build list will lengthen considerably after a few significant weapon/armour breakthroughs.

Serious, the workshop represents the flexibility of a technologically advanced society in which they can prototype and construct units at necessity. It's a marvellous addition to the game IMO, and I gladly take the micromanagement drawback with it, for with a bit of experience I know quite well when and how to remove obselete units in no time.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by GeoModder
You could always rely on the game to 'prototype' you a bunch of units and only use those.
Less micromanagement, but your base build list will lengthen considerably after a few significant weapon/armour breakthroughs.

That was my second problem with the game. Until recently I didn't know about an option to turn this off, so I got very annoyed by the HUGE list of units it created and I found no quick way to get rid of the 90% of the units on the list that I was never going to use

[GeoModder]

Yes, but since you do know now how to remove them relatively easy, has your opinion on the feature (workshop) changed?

[Adagio]

Can't say since I haven't played a game since I was told about it

[Yarco_TW]

To be honest, there are five of them. So it was hard to vote (chose "Other"). List from most to least important.

1) Better barbarians (it looks like it is implemented). Civ III barbarians are so much more pathetic then in Civ II, that I like Civ II more because of them. They can capture cities, arrive from seas, have reasonable AI, and after capturing city # 1 go for city # 2 (and do not disappear, shame on Civ III barbarians)

2) Better corruption. With inventions, such as horseback riding, printing, mail and post office, telegraph, internet, mass education, etc. distance-based corruption MUST decrease. And it should also depend on culture per head (this makes culture buildings necessary, you know). If population grows, and you do not improve your culture, you should get more corruption. (Or maintenance, do not care about names).

3) Better trade - yes!!! Greek, Phoenician, Dutch and British trading empires !!!. Sea trade routes! Land trade routes! Land trade should be also costly before railroad, but still possible. Trade routes (not roads) should provide for much of your taxes. And wars should hamper trade.

4) Better end-gaming (so that it would not take so long). And better AI for end-game wars. In CivIII I can remove soldiers from island city, it will be bombed, but there will never be a paradrop or landing of enemy for 10 turns or so. Never happened in Civ II.

5) Civil wars (see civil wars thread).

[Yarco_TW]

Originally posted by biru biru
The absence of caravans in CIV III was a dissapointment to me. I enjoyed the challenge of establishing trade routes, building large cities with food routes, and being able to race to complete wonders.

Bring back caravans! (the increased diplomacy options in civ III were great, but not worth trading for freight units). Maybe allow civs to have trade embargoes, or tariffs through diplomacy, but bring back the caravans!

Also, got t obe able to race on wonders.

CIV; best game ever

I also liked caravans
1) Food routes 2) Trade routes 3) Cash 4) Transfer shields for great wonders 5) There ain't any other decent trade trade in Civ3.

Caravans had only one disadvantage - variable size of one food caravan always equalled 1/2 of granary volume, which allowed to have cities with minus 20 food shortage living well, and providing a lot of cash from increasing numbers of taxmen. Food size should be fixed.

I think, trade routes should be re-allowed (might be without caravan units).

1) To shift shields and food from town to town. Such routes will allow to maintain mining camps, and not to build factories in the steppe.

2) To generate more trade by taxing trade routes, not road squares. Then you need only ONE road between two cities for wholesale trade, remaining roads are either for retail trade (should give you less taxes then wholesale) or for security reason.

3) To enhance the visibility of sea trade !!! To allow great trading empires of Greeks, Phoenicians, Dutch and British

4) To build wonders. That AI did not use it in Civ 2 is not an excuse. Caravans provide real collective approach to Great Wonders. Imagine Civ3 Pyramids being built by people of Giza only !!! And Pharaoh paying very little attention to the project!!!

5) To have embargoes, loss in taxes due to war, privateering, and trading diplomacy. And to have increased profits from international trade.

Without all of this Civ 3 is Warmonger oriented. In Civ2 when I had nothing to build, I built caravans. In Civ3 I build units. Even if I do not need them. Also, trading Uranium brought

In my opinion there should be many more trade non-strategic resources in Civ3. And you should be able to trade them within your empire and abroad. You should build roads, and sea trade vessels which cost few shields (20 or 30) and actually allow to "create a route", which after that exists untill broken. Trade route should create profit. And taxes. And under such sircumstances game would be resource driven. You would research dye production, and attempt at capturing the supplies of dyes. Not for happiness (poor concept), but for tax. And you would trade jade, glass, wine, everything.

Route has its cost (especially on land) and revenue. The difference is taxable profit. I really want 50, or even 100 of routes. Maybe even created by "private business", but I will have to get access to resources, which allow me to build up my trade.

And I want some differentiation of factories after Industrialisation (like textiles, iron and steel, electronics, etc.), so that I can trade in computers and in softwares.

And I want people to work on factories and in service sectors. If there are factories, people should stop working the bloody tiles.

Sincerely,
Yaroslav

[Tommar]

I agree that upgrading one unit at a time can be annoying, but even Civ3 has a way to upgrade all of one type of unit with two clicks so I can't see how this makes the Workshop special?

Cool! how? I'm trying to play Civ3 again, but am finding it's limitations very frustrating.

This could be done just as well if the game shipped with 2-3 different types for each unit: 1 powerfull but expensive, 1 standard but a bit cheaper and 1 less powerful but the cheapest
That way you still get the options without the annoying micromanagement with the workshop

True, but I also find a lengthy build list annoying - having to scroll through a bunch of junk to find the unit I want to build.

And it doesn't allow you to make some esoteric, but interesting units. Like the colony drop pods I mentioned. Or adding the ability to see far to crawlers, or add armor to them (turning them into sentrys rather than just ferrying resources). Making formers (workers) using a flying unit chassis and heavily armored. Putting probe cababilities into a marine unit. Making probe units with drop capability, etc.

If the game provided all those options by default, without allowing you to delete them from the build list, it would be annoying. The key is to have both the ability to create custom units AND the ability to limit the amount of junk you have to scroll through to find what you want.

[Alexander D]

Do we still have multiple queues for city production? Or building more than one unit in a turn for that matter?

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Tommar

Quote:

I agree that upgrading one unit at a time can be annoying, but even Civ3 has a way to upgrade all of one type of unit with two clicks so I can't see how this makes the Workshop special?

Cool! how? I'm trying to play Civ3 again, but am finding it's limitations very frustrating.

IIRC you just need to press ctrl+u while having selected the unit type you want upgraded, then you get an option (and price) if you want to upgrade all units to the newest unit of that type, or at least all units that can be upgraded (the units needed to be in a city right?)
It's been more than a year since I last played Civ3 so there's a high risk it was other keys that needed to be pressed instead...

[Tommar]

Originally posted by Adagio

Quote:

Originally posted by Tommar Quote: I agree that upgrading one unit at a time can be annoying, but even Civ3 has a way to upgrade all of one type of unit with two clicks so I can't see how this makes the Workshop special? Cool! how? I'm trying to play Civ3 again, but am finding it's limitations very frustrating.

IIRC you just need to press ctrl+u while having selected the unit type you want upgraded, then you get an option (and price) if you want to upgrade all units to the newest unit of that type, or at least all units that can be upgraded (the units needed to be in a city right?)
It's been more than a year since I last played Civ3 so there's a high risk it was other keys that needed to be pressed instead...

No means to do this thru the GUI? Rare resources + penalties for large geographical empires + incomplete GUI are my major pet peeves with Civ3 so far. (There should be NO keyboard commands that do not have a GUI equivalent. Keyboard commands should be a shortcut, not the only means of executing a command. I'm finding way too many of those in Civ3. And way too many commands that are not well thought out, like Control-Shift-R - build Railroads To. Must start in a square that has a road, must locate the end point graphically rather than thru a drop down list.)

These are things that made Civ3 a step backwards from Alpha Centauri that need to be rectified in Civ 4 before I will buy it.

I'm spoiled and used to better. I've played too many games that are less like work. (I bought Civ3 as soon as it was released, based upon my love of Civ2 and Alpha Centauri. After a game or two, Civ3 has languished until now. I'm playing Civ3 finally to see if it has any redeeming qualities to justify buying Civ4 without research. So far it does not. Civ4 might be worth buying, but Civ3 pretty much hosed the "buy without checking" mentality I had before.)

[Th0mas]

My greatest wish for CIV4 is....

...To give me back the old CIV 1 just one more turn feeling!

[xen001]

Here Here, I agree with tommar on the pet peeves for keyboard commands not having any graphical interface counterpart..

[Adagio]

I agree, everything should be doable both via the GUI or by shortcuts, it's often via the GUI I learn the shortcuts

[Tommar]

I forgot to thank you for the info, Adagio. I really do appreciate it.

My foray back to Civ3 has been both frustrating and fun. Frustrating mostly because of interface issues, but once learned, it does have the "just one more turn" aspect that Civ2 and SMAC has.

I'm learning it, but still haven't found a way to flag events, like riots. In SMAC, you could set your Warning Preferences to call up you city screen for rioting cities. Anyway to do this in Civ3? It's a pain to have to watch this between turns, and try to remember which cities it was, or try to search for them later.

Add this to my wishlist for Civ4.

Other than rare resources and penalties for large empires (which I can get over and learn to deal with) my biggest wish for Civ4 is to have all the interface options that SMAC has at the very least (which I can't get over, because I only play games for fun, and the amount of time I have to spend looking for things and making repetitive commands is way too high in Civ3. And my tolerance is low, after SMAC. )

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Adagio
I agree, everything should be doable both via the GUI or by shortcuts, it's often via the GUI I learn the shortcuts

RTFM!

[Adagio]

I hate manuals, the only thing I ever read in the manuals is the shortcuts, but often that part sucks. I remember when I got SimCity 4 (bought the danish version... installed the American version) the manual was in danish. I spent a long time searching the manual for a certain shortcut but with no luck. After asking on a forum for that shortcut I checked the manual and was not suprised that I couldn't find it since the danish translation for the function didn't have anything to do with what it actually did
And since most manuals are in danish this happens quite a lot

[Adagio]

Not to mention that often the games doesn't have a manual

[Tommar]

Originally posted by DrSpike


RTFM!

Reading a 170 page manual seems a bit too much like work. That's not why I play games. I do read them, that's why I know that there's stuff in there that are not availble via the GUI.

And then heartedly despise the game devs for being so freaking lazy. It's not like I owe them anything. I'm the one paying them to entertain me. Not spend days reading their FM.

It's worse in the case of Civ3, since they did a major back-slide or deliberately ignored the interface improvements in SMAC.

They need to fix this in Civ4, and the SMAC interface needs to be their baseline.

Finding out that flying SAM units take a penalty when attacking ground units is worth reading the manual for (SMAC manual). Finding out that units can explore by hitting "e" (Civ3), is not.

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by Adagio
Not to mention that often the games doesn't have a manual

whats your take on civpedia?

[Tommar]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex



whats your take on civpedia?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyways. Civpedia (and it's Alpha Centauri equivalent), is great for finding out info about the items you can build.

If it provides info about what keyboard commands, like "e", "cntrl-r", "cntrl-shift-r", "shift-i", "shift-p", "shift-a" are used for, I haven't found it. These abilities should be available from a unit command menu, not Civpedia, anyway.

They are in the manual *yawn*.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
whats your take on civpedia?

I love it

I wasn't talking about any Civ games as I posted the above comment though

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Adagio
Not to mention that often the games doesn't have a manual

Yes, if you don't pay for them.

[Tommar]

Originally posted by DrSpike


Yes, if you don't pay for them.

For old, esoteric games, you're lucky if you can find the games period. Still trying to find a "legal" copy of SMAX for my husband. My legal copy of it did not come with a manual (no complaints there, SMAX didn't need it, and I've got the SMAC manual, as well as Civ3, but you really need the Civ3 manual, since it's GUI sucks compared to SMAC).

All the more reason to despise an incomplete GUI. and those who advise RTFM.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Tommar

For old, esoteric games, you're lucky if you can find the games period. Still trying to find a "legal" copy of SMAX for my husband. My legal copy of it did not come with a manual (no complaints there, SMAX didn't need it, and I've got the SMAC manual, as well as Civ3, but you really need the Civ3 manual, since it's GUI sucks compared to SMAC).

All the more reason to despise an incomplete GUI. and those who advise RTFM.

Normally, if a paper-version of the manual isn´t included,
it comes as pdf-file on the Game-CD itself.
Most of the times within a folder called "manual",
but sometimes more hidden.

I never encountered a legal version of a game,
which contained not even an electronic version of the manual..
(Of course if you bought it secondhand from ebay and the original owner lost its manual that´s another story )

[Tommar]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


Normally, if a paper-version of the manual isn´t included,
it comes as pdf-file on the Game-CD itself.
Most of the times within a folder called "manual",
but sometimes more hidden.

I never encountered a legal version of a game,
which contained not even an electronic version of the manual..
(Of course if you bought it secondhand from ebay and the original owner lost its manual that´s another story )

Well, as I noted above, I have the manuals for SMAC and Civ3. It's only SMAX that I don't have the actual book for, but I never worried, since I got the SMAC manual.

I bought SMAX from Amazon, Laptop Collection, brand new. It came with no paper manual, but I never looked for an electronic version. SMAC and SMAX both seem to incorporate the most useful commands in the user interface.

But this is all stupid fluff that diverges from the point. The point is that the Civ3 GUI is deficient, because there are unit commands that are NOT available in the game interface.

They are in the manual. I know, because I read it. Which as I stated, I don't wanna read 170+ pages for basic stuff (yeah, I'll read it for something more interesting. OK, I read the Civ3 manual, but I'm really pissed that I did.)

[DrSpike]

Most manuals have a page or pullout which has all the keyboard shortcuts on it. It's been a while - doesn't Civ3?