Hiverian Perimeters

Alinestra Covelia · January 29, 2003, 00:42

This has cropped up once or twice in my games and it puzzles me.

If you play as the Hive (in my case, a purely hypothetical situation of course...) and conquer bases, some of them "gain" a Perimeter Defence when your little blue-flagged icon enters the city.

Others retain whatever Perimeter Defences they had.

Still others are "naked" bases - they had no PDs, and your conquering them does not automatically give them a PD.

What I find even more surprising is that sometimes if you conquer a base and it does NOT have a PD, then you can actually give it one... by conquering another base.

Why does this happen? Is there any rhyme or reason behind it?

Xian · January 29, 2003, 00:44

ive noticed this stuff too

Frankychan · January 29, 2003, 01:31

I also have noticed this....and it ticks me off when I capture UNHQ with their Perimeter base intact, only to have it taken away from me when my glorious Hive troops march through their capital.

I figure maybe it's collateral damage?

Alex · January 29, 2003, 08:46

Does the PD appears in the base improvements list?

Googlie · January 29, 2003, 10:20

I have the same comment re a current PBEM as the UoP

I'm on a conquering spree versus Miriam, and when I capture a base I don't get the NN automatically (but if a captured base does have a node then I get it asterisked in my facs list, meaning I can sell it for credits and still have it.)

Wierd

G.

Ivellios · January 29, 2003, 10:56

IIRC, the same goes with Zak and his Network Nodes...

Alinestra Covelia · January 29, 2003, 10:57

Well, the point is that with Yang's faction, sometimes a base that DIDN'T have a PD will get one when he conquers it.

If this isn't the case, then sometimes conquering another base will suddenly cause a previously conquered base to sprout PD magically.

Anybody know how this works?

johndmuller · January 30, 2003, 04:00

It would appear that the game maybe *intends* to provide a Perim, NetNode, etc. when appropriate to the conquering faction, but is muffing it somehow.

In addition to the hit or miss acquisition of facs one *deserves* to get when conquering a base, I have noticed that it seems considerably more likely that a conquered base will retain a fac if it were the other factions freebie (i.e. a conquered Hive base seems reasonably likely to retain its Perim, etc.).

Speaking of what happens when you conquer a base, does anyone have any theories to share about what are reasonable expectations about what to expect will remain when conquering a base? It seems that nearly everything goes, but perhaps it is just a probability thing and the more facs the base has the more will likely remain.

Similarly, I would be interested in any theories concerning what determines whether an emptied base will disappear when you move into it. It seems that when the last unit is taken, the population goes down 1 and then it goes down 1 more when you move in, so if there are 3 pops and 1 unit when you start, there will be 1 left for you. Sometimes, however, a size 1 base will not go away and sometimes it will not be reduced when you take the last unit - I have hypothesized that if there is a sufficiently large food stockpile, that is when the pop will not decline, but I haven't looked close enough to be sure.

Googlie · January 30, 2003, 12:31

I believe (and of course this depends on the accuracy of my memory) that I read a couple of years ago - when Jeff Morris and Chris Pine were occasional contributers to these forums - that they had programmed that a base lost a facility for every attack buy air or by arty or sea bombardment (but not for infantry attacks), but in any event that the act of occupying the base always destroyed any rec commons if one still remained.

Regarding base elimination, I think that a size 1 base (that only ever was a size 1 base), when attacked and emptied of its defenders, will disappear when occupied; a greater than size 1 base can be reduced in size, (nervegas, starvation as you sit on itys food tiles, etc) but will only disappear if nervegas is being used to obliterate the base (ie it can be entered and occupied if it reduces even to a size 1 base)

But of course the foodbox could be a factor - I've never scenario tested that one.

G.

Spacecow · January 31, 2003, 04:40

Something along similar lines...

Have you guys ever probed a Hive city with nothing in it (except Perimiter), telling the probe to destroy a facility? Somehow once my probe took out their Perimiter... which really made me think twice, since, as the story goes, they live underground, which effectively gives them a perimiter. How in the world my little probe team popped those guys out of the ground, I'll never know. Maybe my probe team just snuck in and ripped a particularly nasty fart in there and everyone came flooding out to the surface... er, maybe not.

Alinestra Covelia · January 31, 2003, 08:40

Mindworms also destroy Hiverian perimeters, which puzzles me too.

Googlie · January 31, 2003, 11:44

Hmm - I'm not sure that the Perim Def is so much a structure as a mindset

(cf the movie and blurb re the CDF - at least that's the way I imnterpreted it in the Spartan Chronicles when sparta built the CDF and got perim defs)

G.

Alinestra Covelia · January 31, 2003, 17:54

If it's a mindset, how would a probe team sabotage it?

Googlie · January 31, 2003, 19:03

Oh there still would be a physical element - but I was meaning "mindset" in that it would be more of a way of defending rather than a bricks and mortar (or steel, or energy such as the Tachyon Field)

So the defense bonus would be due to better lines-of-command, citizens' readiness to come to the aid of the military, block defense with roving breachstopper units, etc

They could be sabotaged by:

mental sabotage, such as sapping the confidence, fear inducing drugs, hallucinatories, etc;

physical sabotage, such as false defense deployment orders, malfunctioning equipment, removal of block leaders, etc

(Of course, it could also be just a honking great city wall, too, but that'd be so ..... 21st Century, wouldn't it?)

Hendrik · January 31, 2003, 19:26

I think that free unsabotagable perims from day 1 would be pretty unbalanced. The CDF does this, but IIRC it isn't possible to give factions facilities that can't be sabotaged through the faction editor.

zsozso · February 1, 2003, 12:18

I think size reduction upon attack also depends on having (or not) PD, i.e. if the base has PD, then killing the defenders without nerve gas will keep the population. However, if the base does not have PD, then killing the last defender will reduce the pop by 1.

However, there is also a difference where you attack from. E.g. I noticed that killing the last defender in a coastal land base by a copter from a land square will reduce the pop, BUT if the same copter attacks from a sea tile and kills the last defender then the pop remains.

Alinestra Covelia · February 1, 2003, 12:57

Yeah that coast/land thing is exactly the same as it was in Civ2.

Dr Jekyll · February 2, 2003, 10:50

The Hive perims are justified by being underground bunkers, so they can't be a mindset... I guess they're destroyed/sabotaged by being cracked open.

Xian · February 2, 2003, 16:03

The mindworms dig up and expose the Hive bases - which are underground and "equivalent" to having perimeter defenses. (you cant build perimeter defenses as the hive because it makes no sense to protect empty space, and they expand FAR beyond the topographical cities of other civilizations)

if you ask me the design was pretty cool

EmperorJay · February 3, 2003, 09:21

in one MP game of mine I had a PD suddenly show up, where I certainly hadn't built one (I was playing Lal) and next turn it disappeared again...

any theories about that?
btw: Yang was just being killed by the cyborgs at that time...

Datajack Franit · February 8, 2003, 22:13

But still you cannot scrap them in order to get some quick cash

EmperorJay · February 9, 2003, 10:25

I don't know if you can, because it was MP I didn't try...

Tau Ceti · February 17, 2003, 08:51

Quote:

Originally posted by johndmuller
In addition to the hit or miss acquisition of facs one *deserves* to get when conquering a base, I have noticed that it seems considerably more likely that a conquered base will retain a fac if it were the other factions freebie (i.e. a conquered Hive base seems reasonably likely to retain its Perim, etc.).

Not only does it retain it - if it does not have one at the moment of conquest, it will build one when it is occupied. This is true of all free facilities, and it is particularly interesting if fighting the Data Angels - if you have Pre-Sentient Algorithms (which would give them free Covert Ops Centres) and they do not, any Angel cities you conquer will still build one when you occupy them.

But it is not without exception. I have the same experiences as everyone else; sometimes you do not get the facility, and sometimes it shows up in some random other city instead. I have seen no system to this.

Also, AFAIK, a city loses 1 population point when occupied unless it is being liberated (ie. it has your faction architecture).

Barinthus · January 29, 2004, 18:35

I've seen similiar thing with my Data Angels, sometimes when I conquer a base, there's no Covert Ops Centre there. I just figured it's a bug. *shrug*

Alinestra Covelia · January 30, 2004, 00:42

Dude.

It's been over a year since this thread was posted and the fact that there's no answer yet speaks volumes, I think.

Vev · January 30, 2004, 03:11

Happy Anniversary!

Snowflake · January 30, 2004, 12:52

The only thing I was thinking is that it will be nice if the conqured base will retain the free facility of the old faction and also obtain the free facility of your faction. Like if you are Hive and you conqure a univ base, then the base would have both a free node and a free perim. Guess that must not be the case.

Lazerus · January 30, 2004, 15:02

Considering Hive bases are supposed to be underground it seems weird that when conquered it somehow loses its defensive capability therefore apparently its now above ground ?

Barinthus · January 30, 2004, 18:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
It's been over a year since this thread was posted and the fact that there's no answer yet speaks volumes, I think.

Yeah, I was going thru old threads, and am about the half way through them now. Just couldn't resist adding my half-cent.

Beside it was one year and one day

.

Flubber · January 30, 2004, 19:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
Considering Hive bases are supposed to be underground it seems weird that when conquered it somehow loses its defensive capability therefore apparently its now above ground ?

I know the gamestory says underground cities but I always think of it more like a series of bunkers . .. How else could a single probe team destroy it