SDI Defence Radius

atomant · January 30, 2003, 08:34

A simple question reall, what is the radius of the city improvement SDI defence?I have seen comments that one unit will basically protect all other cities ina six square radius.

Cyrion · January 30, 2003, 08:38

I thought it was 3 ??

Scouse Gits · January 30, 2003, 08:51

IIRC the radius is 3 squares - so if your cities are close it can protect more than one, but they do need to be close...

SG[1]

Cyrion · January 30, 2003, 09:05

Thanks for confirming, SG, I really wasn't sure!

atomant · January 30, 2003, 09:19

Next question, does the AI get its usual 'fudge' factor?

Cyrion · January 30, 2003, 09:45

Quote:

Originally posted by atomant
'fudge' factor?

What's that???

Six Thousand Year Old Man · January 30, 2003, 11:13

Fudge factors with SDI:

In the AI's favour: The AI will unerringly find the one city that doesn't have an SDI in it, and launch nukes at that. Range does seem to be a factor, but I think that so long as the AI has any city within range, it will hit you.

In your favour: While the AI can tell which of your cities has an SDI, it will keep shooting at cities that are covered by another city's SDI. I've seen dozens of missiles wasted against those 'indirectly protected' cities.

rah · January 30, 2003, 11:33

That led us to use the stratagy of building a city three square away from a targeted AI city and rushing an SDI in it prior to attacking/taking the AI city using force. After taking the city the AI would all out launch against the captured city to no avail.

The secondary benifit of this strategy is that the turn that you are waiting for the SDI to be rushed, you could usually count on the AI to mass attack your "bait" city with any spare unit, thereby thining out the force that you would bel attacking the next turn. (So a mountain location always worked best for the bait city, and using a couple of set/eng. to immediately boost it to pop 2/3/4, in case the ai got lucky on an attack. ) Of course if you were at peace with the AI, the defense part, while still recommended, was not always needed.

But this was only used as a strat of last choice because of the extra turns involved to steamroll over an AI. 2 other strats were always used first.

1. Never let any AI advance enough to get nukes. This one was the most reliable since it is easy to gain such a superior lead that the ability to steamrolling over the AI occurs ages prior.

2. If #1 is not possible due to the game being a scenario, or your latent desire to experience warfare with an equally armed AI so you allow it to happen, just make sure that the turn you attack the first city, you have done the logistics properaly that you are able to eliminate that civ completely in the same turn. Then retaliation isn't an issue.

RAH

Scouse Gits · January 30, 2003, 11:54

Yup - I'll second that

SG[1]

Six Thousand Year Old Man · January 30, 2003, 12:54

Quote:

Originally posted by rah

2. If #1 is not possible due to the game being a scenario, or your latent desire to experience warfare with an equally armed AI so you allow it to happen, just make sure that the turn you attack the first city, you have done the logistics properaly that you are able to eliminate that civ completely in the same turn. Then retaliation isn't an issue.

RAH

Good strategies.... I usually do something similar. The AI generally won't use nukes on small cities, and it never uses them on units outside of cities, to my knowledge. So often, I'll capture a smallish AI city and build a SDI there, especially if it's 2 or 3 squares from a larger city. I've never done the city-on-a-mountain trick for SDI bait purposes - if they nuke me, they nuke me, and 4 engineers used to grow a city will clean up the pollution in 2 turns, anyway. However, I have taken to building fortresses on hills, and parking my howitzer force there - it won't get nuked, and it's as safe from counterattack there as in a city, for the most part.

Otherwise, yeah - land on the AI continent with a large force, attack each city without capturing until they're all empty, capture them all on the same turn, and the partisans vanish

rah · January 30, 2003, 13:12

I too have never seen the AI nuke anything but a city. (I can't believe they don't use them against ships/fleets

)

I didn't make the connection that they wouldn't nuke smaller cities. (I really don't let them lob nukes too often

) That could be a useful tidbit.

RAH

Six Thousand Year Old Man · January 30, 2003, 15:36

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
I too have never seen the AI nuke anything but a city. (I can't believe they don't use them against ships/fleets

)

I didn't make the connection that they wouldn't nuke smaller cities. (I really don't let them lob nukes too often

) That could be a useful tidbit.

RAH

Yeah - maybe it's a coincidence, but if I capture a size 2 or 3 city, it never seems to get nuked. I have no idea if there's a threshold city size - but size 10 cities certainly are nuke targets, while size 2 seem to not be. I'm also not sure whether the units in a city are a factor - ie. if you have captured a coastal size 2 city and parked 5 loaded transports in it, will it be nuked? As I said, I prefer to use fortresses and not run that risk.

I use nukes exclusively against fleets. The way the AI stacks ships makes it a joy to check the casualty list before and after the nuke attack

SCG · January 30, 2003, 20:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Yeah - maybe it's a coincidence, but if I capture a size 2 or 3 city, it never seems to get nuked. I have no idea if there's a threshold city size

There's certainly precendent in the Civ World for threshold size. Those who played Civ I probably remember that the AI would completely ignore islands of size 5 or less. I used to play waterworlds and found cities on tiny islands, so i could completely ignore a military presence - i'd have a city size 24, with 3 wonders and nary a unit, that was in the direct path of the AI attack fleets, and the AI in its military manuvers would go out of its way to avoid the city

rah · January 31, 2003, 09:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

I use nukes exclusively against fleets. The way the AI stacks ships makes it a joy to check the casualty list before and after the nuke attack

Yep.

Considering what a cruise missle magnet a battleship is, it's even more suprising that they won't nuke ships. It's a great way to tie up the AI production. A few vet a. cruisers on top of a battleship at sea, and every city seems to build a cruise missle that will be wasted.

RAH

patrickjb53 · February 2, 2003, 23:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Good strategies.... I usually do something similar. The AI generally won't use nukes on small cities, and it never uses them on units outside of cities, to my knowledge. So often, I'll capture a smallish AI city and build a SDI there, especially if it's 2 or 3 squares from a larger city. I've never done the city-on-a-mountain trick for SDI bait purposes - if they nuke me, they nuke me, and 4 engineers used to grow a city will clean up the pollution in 2 turns, anyway. However, I have taken to building fortresses on hills, and parking my howitzer force there - it won't get nuked, and it's as safe from counterattack there as in a city, for the most part.

Otherwise, yeah - land on the AI continent with a large force, attack each city without capturing until they're all empty, capture them all on the same turn, and the partisans vanish

I've never tried this, but it sound like a great idea. Although, I don't understand why the AI won't nuke 'fortresses on hills'. I probably just misunderstand.

Scouse Gits · February 3, 2003, 03:47

Patrick - as far as the experience on this forum goes. The AI uses nukes exclusively against cities with no SDI. No other uses have ever been reported.

SG[1]

rah · February 3, 2003, 10:11

I vaguely remember one instance where they tried to nuke a city that did have an SDI present. But that was awhile ago, and your memory can play tricks on you. But I do remember being surprised, because I too believe like you do about their use by the AI.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 3, 2003, 20:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Patrick - as far as the experience on this forum goes. The AI uses nukes exclusively against cities with no SDI. No other uses have ever been reported.

SG[1]

Only humans would do things as dastardly as:

nuking fleets

nuking stacks in fortresses

ignoring the size 24 city with 2 units in it, to instead nuke the size 2 coastal city in which I just docked 4 loaded transports.

In a way it's a good thing that MP games never get to the Nuclear Fission point... the carnage would be unimaginable

Incidentally, it seems that the AI will use cruise missiles on any UNIT that has more than 150 shield cost, but NEVER uses them on cities... sort of the converse of how nukes are employed.

Scouse Gits · February 4, 2003, 06:09

Just a follow up on the last post - in the few games I play where rocketry is available I often finds that cruise missiles can be cost effective for city reduction - any comments?

SG[1]

DrSpike · February 4, 2003, 09:03

The first strategy I used to beat deity in 1996 when the game came out was a perfectionist rush to cruise missiles and then use them with paratroopers to take out my 2 neighbours. I then stopped conquering and built the spaceship.

It was a needlessly expensive strat, but CM still can be used for pesky defenders, or ships.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 4, 2003, 19:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Just a follow up on the last post - in the few games I play where rocketry is available I often finds that cruise missiles can be cost effective for city reduction - any comments?

SG[1]

Unless the defending city is on a river or other defensive terrain, I find a vet howitzer can attack, kill one defender, and retreat with its remaining move (the AI always has rails, handily). As I'm sure you know.

Even if the howitzer gets knocked into the yellow or red, a bomber stacked with the wounded howitzer(s) and a mech inf can survive the AI's turns.

Considering that cruise missiles are a 1-shot unit, win or lose ... and cruise missiles are 40 shields, and howitzers are 70 shields I think... howitzers would seem to be much more cost effective. I've used cruise missiles on remote cities, but I find a bomber will usually do just as good a job. Plus, if there's a SAM/SDI combo in the AI city, the cruise missile has next to no chance.

The few times I've played the ToT Extended Original game and gotten to the new units with AIs still alive on earth, the 'super units' were cruise missile magnets. But only outside cities - this is the AI we're talking about

La Fayette · February 4, 2003, 21:20

What I have experienced several times playing scenarios is Rocketry available (usually through stealing it from the AI

) and Robotics far away.
Believe me, when this happens I get cash and buy cruise missiles: they are costly, but they do the job

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 4, 2003, 22:08

I'm the opposite... in most of my games, I get Robotics long before Rocketry (because I delay researching Flight to keep Colossus around).

Absent a VERY strong AI which knows Flight, I'd still go with Bombers before Cruise Missiles. I'm sure my Bombers have a better than 2 in 3 survival rate.

edit: 2 in 3.

La Fayette · February 5, 2003, 04:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
I'm the opposite... in most of my games, I get Robotics long before Rocketry (

You are not the opposite, because (just like you) I always research Robotics long before Rocketry, but, in scenarios, it happens that the AI is well ahead in techs (8 techs ahead of me this morning in the scenario I am playing currently)

Gatekeeper · February 9, 2003, 03:16

I've tweaked the RULES.TXT file so that the AI is more liberal in its use of cruise missiles; I think I made them a bit cheaper. Anyway, the AI no longer "stores" the missiles for exclusive use against ships. I've got it so the AI hits my armored divisions, spies and shock troops (custom unit) with cruise missiles. It also nails any city that's housing a battleship or AEGIS cruiser (which usually doesn't do too much damage ...)

Gatekeeper