Are all races equal?

[Thorgal]

This thread is absurd. Actually EVERYBODY IS BLACK, because Homo Sapiens originates from Subsaharan Africa. So, all races are only adaptations of the black race to diverse environments.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by thorgalaeg
This thread is absurd. Actually EVERYBODY IS BLACK, because Homo Sapiens originates from Subsaharan Africa. So, all races are only adaptations of the black race to diverse environments.

Of course, whatever current science proclaims must be believed.

[Az]

Yes, I would, idealistically, be against willful ignorance as well. But this particular situation is special; there is no way to predict if research results wouldn't prove absolutely harmful to human society. In fact, if you take the average IQ of certain "races", there are likely to be minor differences of a few fractions of percentage points; and letting these "differences" be public knowledge would be very dangerous.

As I've said, my only objection to this reason, that it's ****ing useless. What would such research achieve? Nothing. It count for absolutely nothing for individuals, since the research still wouldn't be able to say anything about an indvidual in any group.

I personally would have no problem with any such research, as long as it would be strictly scientific. Since there are no definitions of who's "white", who's "black", and there is no way to place a true scientific test, and esp. since this research has no benefits in it, I don't think that such a research should be done. It's a waste of money, and yes, it may lead people to wrong conclusions.

But that last arguement alone should not, MUST NOT, even, be enough to stop research. What IS needed however, is a strong education of debate and logic, and generalization is not logic.

[MrFun]

Can someone PLEASE kill this thread already?

AH or someone want to volunteer and do the honors?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Caligastia


You say that you don't accept what is said in the signed statement I provided because it is not universally supported by everyone in the field of intelligence, yet your own opinion regarding intelligence is not universally supported either. Your own opinion does not live up to the criteria you specified as being the reason you are unconvinced by the signed statement. Why don't you tell me the real reason you are unconvinced by it?

I'm not saying I have 100% true facts that race does not matter. I'm just saying that there are NO 100% true facts that it does, the default then is that it doesn't matter because there is no scientific facts to prove it.

It's like saying God exists when there is no evidence for it. I'm not saying he doesn't, maybe he does even though I don't believe it. On the other hand, how does one prove God DOESN'T exist? It's like trying to prove I didn't break into your house last night without you knowing it and without leaving any evidence.

[Japher]

What we call "race" is merely the physical adaption to a given environment for a sufficient length of time.

And I expect (without concern) that all humans will become some generally uniform shade of "tan". "Race" is probably a temporary condition of humanity. We are all becoming far too mobile for the local adjustments to the isolated geographical environments of the past 50,000 years to endure for long.

I agree.

It is because of the second one PP that research into whatever "intelligence" is would be beneficial to increase the evolution of humanity to that point were we all will be "tan". Instead of admitting people into educational institutes based on a prejudicial assumption (AA) we would have definite facts one way or the other. Yeah, yeah, we don't admit ppl into colleges or give them jobs because we think their race is dumber or needs more help, do we? Whatever your answer you are being prejudice, thus the standard alread exists. Might as well be open about it.

I was thinking about Wesly Crusher from Star Trek (no I am not gay), but remember he evolved into the superhuman or something... blah, blah, they just wanted him off the show. Yet, I think the makers of Star Trek think that Wesly was the ideal representative of what a more advanced human would be. To all you homosexuals... Your in luck!

Really, if we are to advance as a human race we need to begin to act like a single race. We are only as strong as the weakest link, thus we must try to help the weakest link. What is the easiest way to determine this link? Determine the best test for intellegence, then test everyone? or, would it behove us to look for a way to group these people (we already do)? You know, all blondes are airheads.

[tinyp3nis]

It's like trying to prove I didn't break into your house last night without you knowing it and without leaving any evidence.

So It was you, well I'm going to get you, you little ****er!!!

[tinyp3nis]

Originally posted by thorgalaeg
This thread is absurd. Actually EVERYBODY IS BLACK, because Homo Sapiens originates from Subsaharan Africa. So, all races are only adaptations of the black race to diverse environments.

All people are monkeys, or even better somekind of single cell organism or what ever was the first living thing on this planet.After all, we are just life forms adapted to the environments. I DECLARE ALL TREES AS HUMANS AND THEY SHOULD HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS!!!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Caligastia


IQ has been proven to be a valid predictor of success.

http://lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

Yeah, right. What a lot of nonsense.

See your quote:

"Of course, whatever current science proclaims must be believed."

I.Q. tests aren't that scientific, being culture biased.

At least the evidence for tracing human genetic material back to ancestors from the African continent has rather more science/fact going for it than your belief that 'God' (whatever he, she, or it is) 'made' races. Presumably you know this because

a) you were there

b) God told you over coffee in your kitchen.

Those of us lacking such divine conduits to knowledge have to rely on scientific research, palaeo archaeology, forensic pathology, and so forth, rather than glossolalia and rapture.

[Az]

@ this thread.

From one side I see a racist, and from the other I see a bunch of people that are afraid of science.

IQ tests are perfectly normal for people that have grown in the same society. They also DO measure success in western society in many roles. But if the participants of the test are not from the same society, it will not prove the inherent relative intelligence, and creativity of people. All it would prove that people in one country, presumably a poorer country or in a poorer society, would recieve less educational and other brain function developing stimulus than people from richer/advanced/education-minded societies.

If someone claimed that people are generally less intelligent in Africa than in the west, in terms of calculations etc. I would probably agree. But that doesn't mean that they're inheritly less capable of mathematics than people from the west.

Nurture not Nature.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by DuncanK
Luk,
Two points.

1) Make your own accomplishments. Don't claim your own superiority by the accomplishments of others.

2) Be proud of the accomplishments of humans. We're all humans.

I totally agree with this statement

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I.Q. tests aren't that scientific, being culture biased.

Culture bias does not account for the disparity between black and white IQs because in tests that were intentionally created with cultural bias, the disparity was less than when non-culturally biased tests were used.

At least the evidence for tracing human genetic material back to ancestors from the African continent has rather more science/fact going for it than your belief that 'God' (whatever he, she, or it is) 'made' races. Presumably you know this because

a) you were there

b) God told you over coffee in your kitchen.

Those of us lacking such divine conduits to knowledge have to rely on scientific research, palaeo archaeology, forensic pathology, and so forth, rather than glossolalia and rapture.

You assume a lot about my beliefs, and are completely wrong. Lose the self-righteous attitude, and this discussion might actually go somewhere.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel
From one side I see a racist

Considering you see fit to call me a racist, would you mind giving me your precise definition of that term? That way I'll know if I should be insulted or not.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I'm not saying I have 100% true facts that race does not matter. I'm just saying that there are NO 100% true facts that it does, the default then is that it doesn't matter because there is no scientific facts to prove it.

I see. The POV you agree with happens to be the only 'correct' default POV. How convenient!

[Az]

Considering you see fit to call me a racist, would you mind giving me your precise definition of that term? That way I'll know if I should be insulted or not

for me racism is the belief that a certain ethnic heritage produces inherent superiorities/inferiorities.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by tinyp3nis

So It was you, well I'm going to get you, you little ****er!!!

damn, I thought I hadn't made a noise!

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I see. The POV you agree with happens to be the only 'correct' default POV. How convenient!

This is my POV in a nutshell:

As of Feb. 8 2003, there is no conclusive universally held scientific/biological evidence to prove that a certain race is intellectually superior to another.

Does this mean there are no differences? maybe and maybe not, there is simply no sufficient evidence to prove 100% either side is right.

As for IQ test, I still think there are certain bias that must be smoothed out and thus I do not consider it a perfect intellectual test. These bias are of course cultural ones. Even in culturally-controlled environments there are factors which escape the experiment-makers, in this case is upbrigning which has a MAJOR effect on people. Take a black kid and a white kid, same school, same neighborhood, yet each familiy will have a distinct way of raising their kids and these differences will probably show.

If they ever make an experiment using different-race kids from the same household, same parents, same school, same region, etc. THEN I'll buy it.

[Az]

If they ever make an experiment using different-race kids from the same household, same parents, same school, same region, etc. THEN I'll buy it.

that wouldn't be scientific.

[Master Zen]

true,

but at least it'll give the empirics a little more credibility

[Az]

no.

It will give racists more credibility.

If you don't want to be a nitpick about it, fine. But then please stop calling "social science" science.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel

for me racism is the belief that a certain ethnic heritage produces inherent superiorities/inferiorities.

I'm not offended to be called a racist if that is all you mean by it, but still, I tend to think you probably attach more meaning than that to it. You are aware that to be called a 'racist' is generally considered a negative thing. Are you the exception to the rule?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Master Zen


This is my POV in a nutshell:

As of Feb. 8 2003, there is no conclusive universally held scientific/biological evidence to prove that a certain race is intellectually superior to another.

Does this mean there are no differences? maybe and maybe not, there is simply no sufficient evidence to prove 100% either side is right.

So you don't believe anything unless there is a unanimous consensus? Or do you only apply this standard to racial matters?

As for IQ test, I still think there are certain bias that must be smoothed out and thus I do not consider it a perfect intellectual test. These bias are of course cultural ones. Even in culturally-controlled environments there are factors which escape the experiment-makers, in this case is upbrigning which has a MAJOR effect on people. Take a black kid and a white kid, same school, same neighborhood, yet each familiy will have a distinct way of raising their kids and these differences will probably show.

As I explained to Molly, cultural bias does not account for the disparity between black and white IQs because in tests that were intentionally created with cultural bias, the disparity was less than when non-culturally biased tests were used.

If they ever make an experiment using different-race kids from the same household, same parents, same school, same region, etc. THEN I'll buy it.

They have, and if I really thought it would change your mind, I would find the results for you. If there is not a 100% unanimous consensus then it's not good enough for you.

[Az]

It's irrelevant to the discussion, but let me say you this:

In the context of the moral code in which I believe, It's an immoral thing. I am willing to debate and explain you the 'why', though.

So... say, what do you think are the inherent traits of the different races?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel
It's irrelevant to the discussion, but let me say you this:

In the context of the moral code in which I believe, It's an immoral thing. I am willing to debate and explain you the 'why', though.

Go ahead, and keep in mind that someone with 'racist' beliefs does not necessarily think this way in order to feel superior, or because they hate people who are different.

So... say, what do you think are the inherent traits of the different races?

I can't say for sure in most areas, but I definitely think there are intelligence differences.

[Az]

Go ahead, and keep in mind that someone with 'racist' beliefs does not necessarily think this way in order to feel superior, or because they hate people who are different.

I understand that you are not hateful, at least it seems so. Still, there are many wrongs.

I can't say for sure in most areas, but I definitely think there are intelligence differences.

please, tell me more.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Azazel

I understand that you are not hateful, at least it seems so. Still, there are many wrongs.

You think it is wrong for me to believe what I do. Why?

please, tell me more.

Sure:

"Members of all racial-ethnic groups can be found at every IQ level. The BELL CURVES of different groups overlap considerably, but groups often differ in where their members tend to cluster along the IQ line. The BELL CURVES for some groups (Jews and East Asians) are centered somewhat higher than for whites in general. Other groups (blacks and Hispanics) are centered somewhat lower than non-Hispanic whites.
The BELL CURVE for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the BELL CURVE for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks. The evidence is less definitive for exactly where above IQ 100 the BELL CURVES for Jews and Asians are centered."

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

[Ramo]

The Bell Curve is one of the most deceptive and intellectually bankrupt books I've read. Their statistical techniques are flawed in the extreme. What they assert simply isn't accurate.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Ramo
The Bell Curve is one of the most deceptive and intellectually bankrupt books I've read. Their statistical techniques are flawed in the extreme. What they assert simply isn't accurate.

That's not where I took the quote from. Keep in mind that a Bell Curve is not just the title of a book.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Caligastia

Sure:

"Members of all racial-ethnic groups can be found at every IQ level. The BELL CURVES of different groups overlap considerably, but groups often differ in where their members tend to cluster along the IQ line. The BELL CURVES for some groups (Jews and East Asians) are centered somewhat higher than for whites in general. Other groups (blacks and Hispanics) are centered somewhat lower than non-Hispanic whites.
The BELL CURVE for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the BELL CURVE for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks. The evidence is less definitive for exactly where above IQ 100 the BELL CURVES for Jews and Asians are centered."

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html

Is your definition of "superiority" by intelligence?

I certainky think one can be "superior" over another by genetic comparison. Me compared to a person with down syndrome for example, its easy to determine typically I would be considered "superior".

-But does that mean I am always at advantage over down sydrome patients no matter what kind of enviorrnment I am given?

-And can you generalize the population of people with so much genetic pool with so much variety to conclude that a group is superior over another?

-And can you determine the difference between genetics VS environment factors when you are making an observation that "typically X race is inferior over Y race"?

-And is defintion of superior absolute at all?

In the end it's just too much uncertainty for me to say "yes, X is superior over Y". I wouldnt deny 100% that one race can be superior over another, but thats like me saying I wont deny the fact that little tooth fairies exist and they are just to shy to come by themselves so they hire mom and dad to do the job.

And in the end, even if someone comes up to me and persuades me to beleive that X is superior over Y, unless all Xs and Ys are the same, it really doesnt help you to be X, as long as there is range of difference. For example, if you are green and green intellectual range is 100 - 200 and you are the 101, it doesnt help you to be any better than the white people whos intellectual range is lets say, 60 - 120.

[Az]

Petition. nice. It, however, does not speak at all about the cultural background of education, developement of early learning skills etc.