Should America be a civ?

[Master Zen]

Since Civ is supposed to be a "what if" type of game (I mean, what would the fun be if every nation followed its historically-correct path???) then WHY ARE WE COMPLAINING IF CERTAIN CIVS DESERVE TO BE AT A CERTAIN AGE OF HISTORY???

Play and have fun dammit!!! Americans: have fun watching your Bostonian Pikemen defend against German Longbowmen!! And then, 2000 years later watch as you get bombed by Iroqouis Stealth Bombers (poetic justice?)!!

Oh the horror! Oh the fun!!

[TacticalGrace]

|In your "what if" world, what is the explanation for the second american city being called "New York"?

the fact is that America does stand out among the other civilizations because it doesn't even have it's own distinct language.

[ottok]

urf why i am anyway a PRINCE??

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
|In your "what if" world, what is the explanation for the second american city being called "New York"?

Why wouldn't it be?

the fact is that America does stand out among the other civilizations because it doesn't even have it's own distinct language.

and your point?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by ottok
urf why i am anyway a PRINCE??

300 or more posts.

[Chilean President™]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
the fact is that America does stand out among the other civilizations because it doesn't even have it's own distinct language.

so?

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Since Civ is supposed to be a "what if" type of game (I mean, what would the fun be if every nation followed its historically-correct path???) then WHY ARE WE COMPLAINING IF CERTAIN CIVS DESERVE TO BE AT A CERTAIN AGE OF HISTORY???

Play and have fun dammit!!! Americans: have fun watching your Bostonian Pikemen defend against German Longbowmen!! And then, 2000 years later watch as you get bombed by Iroqouis Stealth Bombers (poetic justice?)!!

Oh the horror! Oh the fun!!

Right. Everybody gets so worked up over this cr*p its ridiculous. Yes, USA is a late comer. But how many civs are in this game that no longer exist at all? You don't see anyone questioning the validity of including the Aztecs do you? Where are they now? Do they have the thriving nation they do in my latest game?

I think too many people are just using this game as a vehicle to bash Americans. Get over it. George W. Bush does not accurately reflect every person in the country - not even the majority. Civ3 is a game, not a history lesson. If you want it to accurately reflect history use the editor to reflect how you want it, and let the rest of us play in peace!

[Chilean President™]

Originally posted by Amesjustin
George W. Bush does not accurately reflect every person in the country - not even the majority.

yes the acuracy of which civ should be included or not is subjective. let us all play and... well we have an editor to erase one or two civs and include our own.

[TacticalGrace]

Amesjustin:

My point is that the Americans are in fact the English.

The real Americans in civ3 are the Iroquois, and should have been named as such. This is the source of the identity crisis for the native american civs. First they were the Sioux then they were Iroquis. They should have been American all along.

[Chilean President™]

If you say that the Americans are in fact the English, well then the English are in fact the Celts and Romans.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Chilean President
If you say that the Americans are in fact the English, well then the English are in fact the Celts and Romans.

A valid argument. probably would be stronger if you said the Normans and the Saxons (but then I guess that there aren't normans and saxons specifically in civ3).

But this is why I brought up the language argument. The English developed their own language. I think that you would have to stretch the imagination to suggest that the so-called Americans have done the same.

As far as Rome is concerned, the people of the British Isles did absorb some culture from the Rome but then Rome left and Britain never really became Roman. They didn't use their language (except in the context of the new religion of Rome, Christianity which was successfully exported just about everywhere) nor did their bloodlines intermix that strongly.

As far as the Celts were concerned, they're culture was driven north and west by the English and then subsequently conquored by the English. The celts were a distinct people both linguistically and racially.

In fact the biggest influences on the English were the Normans and the Saxons. Here there was a strong integration of language and bloodlines. Despite the typiucal Enlgishman will not understand French or German but thety would have no problem understanding an American.

[Panag]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Amesjustin:

My point is that the Americans are in fact the English.

The real Americans in civ3 are the Iroquois, and should have been named as such. This is the source of the identity crisis for the native american civs. First they were the Sioux then they were Iroquis. They should have been American all along.

hi ,

americans are a mix of backgrounds , english , dutch , spanish , french , irish , germans , etc , ......

and not to forget the natice american's , ....

have a nice day

[Chilean President™]

lets call them "unitedstatians", Chileans are Americans also... as Mexicans, Brazilians, Canadians and Surinameses ( yeah, Surinameses ).
Anyway I believe that language is not a barrier to put the "Unitedstatians" in the game.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Chilean President
lets call them "unitedstatians", Chileans are Americans also... as Mexicans, Brazilians, Canadians and Surinameses ( yeah, Surinameses ).
Anyway I believe that language is not a barrier to put the "Unitedstatians" in the game.

hi ,

*cough* , .....

the are called the United States of America , .......

have a nice day

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Amesjustin:
My point is that the Americans are in fact the English.

Only a minority of the Americans descended from the English.

The real Americans in civ3 are the Iroquois, and should have been named as such. This is the source of the identity crisis for the native american civs. First they were the Sioux then they were Iroquis. They should have been American all along.

The Iroquois were never Sioux, just like the Russians were never Spanish. They didn't call their land or empire America either. If you want to give them their proper name, calling them Haudenosaunee (people of the longhouse) instead of Iroquois (they who smoke) would do. They named North-America Turtle Island.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Chilean President
lets call them "unitedstatians", Chileans are Americans also... as Mexicans, Brazilians, Canadians and Surinameses ( yeah, Surinameses ).
Anyway I believe that language is not a barrier to put the "Unitedstatians" in the game.

That won't do. A lot of nations in the world are unions of states. Mexico, for instance, is officially the 'United States of Mexico'.

[Chilean President™]

Originally posted by Ribannah
That won't do. A lot of nations in the world are unions of states. Mexico, for instance, is officially the 'United States of Mexico'.

That's my point!.. the name United States of America is a wrong name. In the case of México, the "United States of México" is not called as the continent. The problem is that, the USA has taken the name of the entire continent to name their own country. 51 States (I think that's the right number), is not a reason to call them "America".
You may see that some of those states have names that were not taked from other geographical sites, Milwaukee or Wisconsin are original names... United States of America, is not.


Sorry for my possibles mistakes, my english is kind of rusty

[Panag]

Originally posted by Chilean President


That's my point!.. the name United States of America is a wrong name. In the case of México, the "United States of México" is not called as the continent. The problem is that, the USA has taken the name of the entire continent to name their own country. 51 States (I think that's the right number), is not a reason to call them "America".
You may see that some of those states have names that were not taked from other geographical sites, Milwaukee or Wisconsin are original names... United States of America, is not.


Sorry for my possibles mistakes, my english is kind of rusty

hi ,

they did not choose the name back then intending to name the whole continent after them , ......

they are the united states of america , ......

have a nice day

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Amesjustin:

My point is that the Americans are in fact the English.

The real Americans in civ3 are the Iroquois, and should have been named as such. This is the source of the identity crisis for the native american civs. First they were the Sioux then they were Iroquis. They should have been American all along.

While we may still speak english, I think it is safe to say we are no longer English. This country is full of people who are of spanish, asian, middle eastern, and african descent. I live in Southern California, where people of any Anglo-Saxon descent make up about 42% of the population. One of the things that makes our culture so unique in the world is the melting pot of different cultures that exist here. I can get food from any nation within an hour here.

As far as your different languages go - I think there are more countries out there that do NOT have their own language than do. Does Brazil not have a seperate culture from Portugal?

Being partially Native American myself, I think I might know a bit more about the topic than you. Native americans are actually descendants from asia, crossing over to Alaska on an ice bridge during the last Ice Age, and migrating south. Does that mean the Cherokee are asian? In fact many studies say that human life started in Africa or the Middle East - do you consider yourself to be African or Middle Eastern?

The fact is, we all came from the same source, whether you believe in Evolution or Creationism, and so large as a species that the fragmentation into different nations was eventually inevitable. Each nation has developed their own culture, even the USA. In fact, the USA has a rather distinctive culture if you ask me. You might not like the culture (there are some aspects I don't like), but it IS a culture that is very different from the English.

Americans are not English, the English are not Norman/Saxon, nor were the Norman/Saxons African. Yes we are all people, but what fun is that in a game like this? We are all our own people within the nation we live in.

And as far as the term 'Americans' go - I agree that the term 'America' applies to native americans AND all the peoples living in North and South America. But the point of Civ3 is to have different nations play against each other. We refer to each other as Americans only because United Statians sounds lame.

The Native Americans had a culture here, but were wiped out by the Colonists. In Civ3 terms, think of it this way - England starts colonizing a land where the lesser-developed Native Americans lived. After a short-lived peace treaty, war breaks out, and almost all of the Native American cities are destroyed, the few that remain eventually 'flip' over to the other side. The Colonists eventually revolt and form their own nation (Something which Civ 3 really should have incorporated).

At any rate, this is just a game, enjoy it, remove the US if you like! Just please stop using a game that is supposed to provide fun as your anti-american vehicle.

[XarXo]

America is a civ, just because they created an own life visions. A very selfish and monetarized, yes, but a different one.

They have a sense of americanism (who deserve this?) nationality.

They have the longest democtratic government in history.

Well... USA... What else I have to say?

About the name, they called themselves "americans" just because they are a mix of some great macrorregions that if constituited separed states they probably maintained their own name.

These macrorregions (New England, Lousiana, parts of México...) are the reason of such common "America" noun. Well, the good idea could be include "North-" in the noun so the South subcontinent states can forget the idea of an "imperialist" expansion (USA IS imperialist, yes, but not in the noun ).

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

they did not choose the name back then intending to name the whole continent after them , ......

they are the united states of america , ......

have a nice day

Exactly. The country was named before the continents. So that make the continents improperly named, would it not?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Amesjustin


Exactly. The country was named before the continents. So that make the continents improperly named, would it not?

hi ,

looking at an atlas of about a hundred years old ; North - and South America are named as ; the Americas , .....

have a nice day

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by XarXo
America is a civ, just because they created an own life visions. A very selfish and monetarized, yes, but a different one.

Keep in mind this is not how the vast majority of America is. This is the image portrayed by Hollywood and other media, both foreign and domestic. Most Americans are just as appalled by greed and autocentrism as you are.

[Chilean President™]

I totally agree with you first post Amesjustin.
I just want to clear that I never said that the confusion with the name was due to a "imperalistic policy" from the US, come on! Is just a simple mistake.

Anyway the country was named as the continent, not before. The English name their occidental colonies as "american colonies" due to the fact that they were on America (the continent).
Actually I don't have the accurate dates of the first time that the name was used fort the continent (by Americo Vespucio) and the name of the English colonies, If you have that information Amesjustin or anyone else, please tell me about it.

[Master Zen]

But I am sure that the term "America" refereing to the New World was used WAAAAY before the term American colonists came into widespread use in England.

What I find it hard to swallow is that in the Webster's dictionary, under "American" the first definition is that of the United States when the term should be applied to any citizen of any country in America.

So, Chilean President, change your name to American President! Let's take the name back!!

[Chilean President™]

Originally posted by Master Zen
So, Chilean President, change your name to American President! Let's take the name back!!

then maybe the people would believe that I'm Bush.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Chilean President



then maybe people will believe that I'm Bush.

Not even I want to be confused with that idiot!

[Ribannah]

It is Iceland that has the longest history of Democracy, followed by the Iroquois who introduced the participatory form.

Amesjustin, not all natives flipped. There are still several independent Amerind nations within the borders of the USA and Canada (the Iroquois among them). Also, the colonists adopted at least as much native culture as vice versa.

[Amesjustin]

All have at least partially assimilated into the culture, even the ones living on their sovereign reservations. The relatively recent upsurge in Indian Casinos shows that. Very little is left of their once very rich heritage

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Amesjustin


While we may still speak english, I think it is safe to say we are no longer English. This country is full of people who are of spanish, asian, middle eastern, and african descent. I live in Southern California, where people of any Anglo-Saxon descent make up about 42% of the population. One of the things that makes our culture so unique in the world is the melting pot of different cultures that exist here. I can get food from any nation within an hour here.

(1) It's not very unique.
(2) Sounds a lot like London really but I'd still call that an English city, especially in civ terms.
(3) When there is someone other than a middle-aged english speaking white man in the White House, then I'll believe that the USA has truly embraced cultural diversity.

As far as your different languages go - I think there are more countries out there that do NOT have their own language than do. Does Brazil not have a seperate culture from Portugal?

I never said that America doesn't have a separate culture from Britain. I was only saying that in civ terms the modern america is most correctly modelled as being born from the english civ for the general game. I'm not talking about scenarios here : the american civ is excellent and essential for scenario construction.

Also I think that the native americans are the original americans (obviously!) History might pan out differently and modern america might turn out to be a successful native american civ. Or it might get conquored by the french this time...

Being partially Native American myself, I think I might know a bit more about the topic than you. Native americans are actually descendants from asia, crossing over to Alaska on an ice bridge during the last Ice Age, and migrating south. Does that mean the Cherokee are asian? In fact many studies say that human life started in Africa or the Middle East - do you consider yourself to be African or Middle Eastern?

All of that is very nice but in the idiom of civilization it is consistant and most neatly modelled by making the native americans the civilization that starts off being called america. For playing on world map they should be the only civ starting in north america.

The fact is, we all came from the same source, whether you believe in Evolution or Creationism, and so large as a species that the fragmentation into different nations was eventually inevitable. Each nation has developed their own culture, even the USA. In fact, the USA has a rather distinctive culture if you ask me. You might not like the culture (there are some aspects I don't like), but it IS a culture that is very different from the English.

Americans are not English, the English are not Norman/Saxon, nor were the Norman/Saxons African. Yes we are all people, but what fun is that in a game like this? We are all our own people within the nation we live in.

well obviously everything is abstracted in civ. I'm suggesting that the least silly abstraction is an american civ - the native americans - and a bunch of european civs like the english and the french.

The Native Americans had a culture here, but were wiped out by the Colonists. In Civ3 terms, think of it this way - England starts colonizing a land where the lesser-developed Native Americans lived. After a short-lived peace treaty, war breaks out, and almost all of the Native American cities are destroyed, the few that remain eventually 'flip' over to the other side. The Colonists eventually revolt and form their own nation (Something which Civ 3 really should have incorporated).

correct. But it doesn't so the remaining mechanism is to make an american civ which starts with tribal native american city names.

At any rate, this is just a game, enjoy it, remove the US if you like! Just please stop using a game that is supposed to provide fun as your anti-american vehicle.

hey I'm not being anti-american. I'm just saying that the american civ should be modelled in a different way. I'm not saying that people shouldn't play civ the way they want. That goes without saying. I'm just pointing out the upside down nature of having an american civ that starts off building cities like washington and new york when the Englishness of these names is so apparant. If anything making the american civ based on its deeper heritage decouples america from europe and correctly makes it a separate independant culture.