Thread Tools
Old February 12, 2001, 06:00   #1
Misotu
Emperor
 
Misotu's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Leamington Spa, England
Posts: 3,657
Capturing Native Life
A number of times on the boards I've seen posts about capturing native life suggesting that you can only capture successfully at the start of your move (or possibly if you have a full movement point left). So a tame worm trolling through 3 fungus squares per turn will only capture wild natives successfully in the first square of fungus it enters.

I'd been playing the Nomad challenge this week as the Cult and noticed that I was capturing native life forms regularly with my worms on the 2nd and 3rd move in a single turn. I wondered whether this was perhaps specific to the Cult but in a game this evening, as the Gaians, my scout travelled through three squares of fungus on a river and captured 2 worms separately, in squares 2 and 3.

So I was just wondering whether others have seen the same thing?
Misotu is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 07:31   #2
Chowlett
Alpha Centauri PBEM
King
 
Chowlett's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: of Candle'Bre
Posts: 1,804
Hmm, curious. I have certainly only ever seen captures made on the first move, and as far as I can tell, captures have only been attempted on the first move (ie, no "capture attempt failed" message appeared). I'd ask for a save, but I don't really have a working computer atm...

On a related note, what decides whether "These worms appear to be being directed by a vastly more powerful mind that normal worms"? It happens a lot in ecodamage worms, but by no means all the time, nor merely in eco-situations.
Chowlett is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 10:02   #3
Misotu
Emperor
 
Misotu's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Leamington Spa, England
Posts: 3,657
I also get that message when I am close to transcendence. I think it occurs before the Voice is built, but I'm not sure what the trigger tech is - possibly one of the Secrets?
Misotu is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 10:57   #4
JAMiAM
Prince
 
Local Time: 21:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USoA
Posts: 480
Misotu,

You certainly do NOT need a full movement point remaining, to capture natives. I've often captured mindworms with 2/3, or even 1/3, movement points left. And this with rovers and infantry, as well as domesticated worms.

Whoever might have suggested otherwise, is talking out of their...diametrically opposed orifice.
JAMiAM is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 11:40   #5
Tau Ceti
King
 
Tau Ceti's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,151
Talking out of... experience, I'd say. I have the same experience as Chowlett; I have never captured natives with less than a full movement point left, and I do not get the 'Capture attempt failed' message if I try. I have to believe it when two so experienced players say you can, but it does surprise me...
Tau Ceti is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 12:55   #6
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
It seems to me that native lifeforms suffer no penalty to attack and capture of other native lifeforms regardless of their movement remaining. Non-native units seem to need a full movement point (going in) to attack at full strength and presumably capture native lifeforms. I must admit that my own experience is limited here, as I often would rather pull back and / or defend rather than attacking at poor odds with a non-native unit.
Sikander is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 17:01   #7
Misotu
Emperor
 
Misotu's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Leamington Spa, England
Posts: 3,657
If you play, like me, with the odds displayed before attacking, there's no risk to attempting a capture. In any event, like JAMiAM, I tend to be fairly aggressive about attacking if I'm in a load of fungus with a conventional (ie non-native) unit because it's too hard to run away! My chances of surviving if I don't attack are so poor that it seems to me that it's almost always worth attacking. This is especially true in the early game, when the mindworms are tiny and pretty feeble - and of course, that's also when you're most likely to have a successful capture.

There's absolutely no doubt about it - I have captured mindworms with 2/3 or 1/3 move remaining at least a dozen times in these last two challenges as the Cult and the Gaians. Thought I was confused at first, so I started paying careful attention - definitely no mistake here. As you'd expect, it happens far more regularly as the Cult.
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited February 12, 2001).]
Misotu is offline  
Old February 12, 2001, 20:45   #8
RedFred
ACDG3 Gaians
King
 
RedFred's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,447
Sadly, the idea that you cannot successfully capture on less than a full movement point is a myth. Quite often I'll pick up advice from other posters and repeat it later on. NOTE TO SELF: never do this without testing first!
RedFred is offline  
Old February 13, 2001, 01:29   #9
big_canuk
ACDG3 Gaians
King
 
big_canuk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Leamington, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,167
I have had the same experience as Misotu, capturing native life with less than 1 full movement point left. I was going to post my experience then, but decided to wait for others to have the same thing happen. It happened for me with both a mind worm moving through fungus, and a scout moving along a river, both in the early game.
big_canuk is offline  
Old February 13, 2001, 01:33   #10
Lal Gore & the Sacred Ox
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Tau Ceti,

No insult intended to any person living, or otherwise. Just my lame attempt at humor.

I think that Sikander hits the nail on the proverbial head. Given that many people "chicken out" of making the attacks when they have the hasty attack penalty, the odds of seeing a successful capture are dramatically reduced. If you never do it, you'll never see it!

If you only make the attacks during desperate moments, say 1% of the time of the time that you attack natives, and your capture rate is down to 10%, then (on average) you will only see the natives get captured with hasty attacks once in every thousand attacks. It would be easy for these successes to be overlooked during the course of play.

The reason that I have seen more successful hasty captures is that I run green economies, and play "green" factions quite often. Also, I am usually quite aggressive in MW farming. Generally, my bases (in SP, at least) have but a single defender. When you have a positive Planet rating, it is better to run out one tile on a road to hasty attack a stack of mindworms than to let them split up and occupy two tiles next to your base. Let Planet rating be x: then without regard to morale/lifecycle modifiers the chance of a successful attack is 1.5*.66*(1+(0.x)).

If you wait and succeed in capturing one of the boils, you are now out of the base, and the other will be able to move in. If you attack one and kill it, you become weaker (damaged) and the other boil(s) becomes stronger. Then you'll likely lose the defender, and possibly population, facilities, and even the base.

When all the possibilities are weighed, it is generally better to attack, even at lessened but still favorable odds.

JAMiAM

(Oops! Damned cookies! I guess that I just blew that DL. )
[This message has been edited by Lal Gore & the Sacred Ox (edited February 12, 2001).]
 
Old February 13, 2001, 05:29   #11
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
Sometimes it is better to wait and let the worms come to you. Suppose I have 2/3 of a movement point left. If I attack, I will have basically 1 to 1 odds vs the worm, whereas if I end my turn and let the worm attack me it will have a 3 to 2 advantage. (This advantage for the worm is completely wiped out once I have trance scouts.) The one thing that I can buy is time. The worm will have to waste it's next turn attacking my scout, and will not be able to wade into crawler and former territory. I would usually rather waste a turn rebuilding a scout than spend money on upgrading one or more crawlers or formers to armored / trance variants, or losing and replacing them. Thus I take the greater risk of losing the expendable in order to create a completely predictable situation that I can live with.

Sikander is offline  
Old February 13, 2001, 10:45   #12
JAMiAM
Prince
 
Local Time: 21:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USoA
Posts: 480
Sikander,

That's correct, and my tactic also, when dealing with a single worm. Unless it stops and starts munching my terraformed land. Then the nearest rover gets called in, or a brave scout unit goes out to face the boil down, to kill or capture.

Remember, with a positive Planet rating, even a 2/3 hasty attack will have better than even odds of success for the kill, should the capture fail.
JAMiAM is offline  
Old February 15, 2001, 15:11   #13
Blake
lifer
PolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG Gathering StormCivilization IV CreatorsApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of Fame
Beyond the Sword AI Programmer
 
Blake's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: I am a Buddhist
Posts: 5,680
Once or twice very early playing a green faction I've captured one worm, then an IOD unloads a couple of worms next to an undended city (or a heap of my crawlers) so I disband my existing worm and use the sure-capture feature to capture the two worms on 1/3 of a movement point (later the sure-capture thing goes away).

Something else, it seems wild mindworms don't use roads. And in means you can wait for the mindworm to come up the road to your city and then you can attack with full movement.
Blake is offline  
Old February 15, 2001, 17:24   #14
buster
ACDG3 CMNsACDG The Free Drones
King
 
buster's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
Posts: 1,301
As a small note - I believe worms don't have a movement-combat penalty.

Most worm capture I have done has been done by captured worms roaming fungus. (Capture a worm and have it capture 10 more strategy playing a green faction).

I have several times captured worms on the 2 or third move with a worm going through fungus. According to odds they also attack with full strength even if only 1/3 movement point left.

Another worm anomaly btw is that worms repair quicker and to 100% strength (vs. the 80% of conventional units).

And a third is that wild worms will never attack captured ones. Meaning you will always have the attack bonus when using worms to capture worms.

I belive I have also captured worms with conventional units (rovers or infantry) and even with less than a full movement point left - but I cannot swear on this.


[This message has been edited by buster (edited February 15, 2001).]
buster is offline  
Old February 15, 2001, 18:20   #15
Fitz
King
 
Fitz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: & Anarchist
Posts: 1,689
quote:

Originally posted by buster on 02-15-2001 04:24 PM
As a small note - I believe worms don't have a movement-combat penalty.



They don't.

quote:

Another worm anomaly btw is that worms repair quicker and to 100% strength (vs. the 80% of conventional units).


This only occurs when you rest in fungus. In any other square they heal just like regular units. Also, a native lifeform in fungus at the end of it's turn doesn't cost a mineral to support.

quote:

And a third is that wild worms will never attack captured ones. Meaning you will always have the attack bonus when using worms to capture worms.


This is true for mindworms. However, a spore launcher will attack your spore launcher, and an IoD will attack your see lifeform, as will (IIRC) a Sealurk.
Fitz is offline  
Old February 15, 2001, 18:30   #16
Slimehorse
Settler
 
Local Time: 05:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 22
Speaking of Sealurks... is there ever any reason to build one? And can you capture them? I can't remember if I ever had. Usually the only time I see the suckers is when they appear out of the sea and go straight for a base, which means (thanks to trancing all my garrisons) free morale upgrade gifts from the sea.
Slimehorse is offline  
Old February 15, 2001, 18:41   #17
Fitz
King
 
Fitz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:04
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: & Anarchist
Posts: 1,689
Sealurks are submarine. That's why you almost never see them until they attack. And that's also the reason to build them in MP (but not SP). They can also attack, and I think capture, coastal bases, which I think IoDs cannot.
Fitz is offline  
Old February 16, 2001, 00:03   #18
Blake
lifer
PolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG Gathering StormCivilization IV CreatorsApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of Fame
Beyond the Sword AI Programmer
 
Blake's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: I am a Buddhist
Posts: 5,680
You can capture wild sealurks, I did a test once and it worked. I've also seen two AI sea lurks which could only have been captured. (I've never managed to catch one in a normal game though, the way to do it would be to let the sealurk empty a base (it will sit outside the base forever basically) then attack it with a high movement ship, and this would have to be done early in the game. IOD's are much better to capture, but you can't deny Sea Lurks look damn cool.

The sealurk is cheaper than an IOD (by 1 row IIRC) so that's an advantage.

BTW anyone else ever noticed that if you bombard sporelaunchers (and possibly other worms) that can capture them.
Blake is offline  
Old February 16, 2001, 06:21   #19
Skanderbeg
Warlord
 
Skanderbeg's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: of the Anti-Alien Forces of the Cult of Planet
Posts: 263
quote:

Originally posted by Fitz on 02-15-2001 05:41 PM
Sealurks are submarine. That's why you almost never see them until they attack. And that's also the reason to build them in MP (but not SP). They can also attack, and I think capture, coastal bases, which I think IoDs cannot.


Sealurks can be caught. They can attack coastal bases, but cannot take them.
Skanderbeg is offline  
Old February 16, 2001, 11:41   #20
Lord Maxwell
Prince
 
Local Time: 05:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Uppsala - Sweden
Posts: 328
As we have gone to sealurks I can take the time to alert you to a bug they have. They don't know that they are native life. My sealurks always move as conventional units in fungus. (Which kinda sucks, when the random gods decide that you should NEVER EVER meet an IoD, that in fact you should only see one aquatic native life form in 60 years of pod popping. Makes trolling the new sargasso for pods a hassle.)
Lord Maxwell is offline  
Old February 16, 2001, 14:02   #21
Clear Skies
Prince
 
Clear Skies's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: looking for a saviour in these dirty streets
Posts: 660
OK, I think the message is:
"Capture attempt failed! Our psi talents report that these mind worms seem to be under the control of a vastly more powerful hive mind!"
That hive mind is Chiron, or Planet as some of us prefer to call it. Voice is sending these worms as a warning to you to cut back on ecodamage before it's too late. They also sometimes occur when Hercules approache perihelion.
Clear Skies is offline  
Old February 16, 2001, 19:31   #22
Purple
Prince
 
Purple's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:04
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Austin, TX, US
Posts: 723
quote:

Originally posted by Lord Maxwell on 02-16-2001 10:41 AM
My sealurks always move as conventional units in fungus.


I just captured my first sealurk and I thought I noticed that it moves through fungus at half speed (I could be mistaken). Maybe because it is submarine? What's the movement rate of conventional subs?
Purple is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:04.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team