Panzer Elite vs. Combat Mission!

klesh · February 1, 2003, 12:49

What is to follow is the continuation of a PM conversation about 2 WWII tank sims/games. People might want to see or hear this, so we'll continue in public. Plus, we get to post screenies

.

[quote]
fairline wrote on 01-02-2003 03:30:

Panzer Elite, of course! Fired up my copy and realised it does look a bit like CM. It's the best tank sim out there and surely due for an upgrade - I seem to remember the designers were dropped by the game publishers or something like that?[quote]

Ah yes, this is the long story part. Originally the game was published under the company Psygnosis. This might be the version you own. I bought it years ago in the bargain bin for $20 US. A great deal! Psygnosis eventually went belly up, and was bought out by Sony, who proceeded to sit on it. Only the original Psygnosis compies floated around for awhile, some selling on eBay for $100+.

All this time many many mods have been made, including your PEDG. All of these are very well done, well enough that when a new company was created (JoWood) after the rights for PE was bought back from Sony, they re-released PE with a Bonus disk including several of the community mods! There is a great Monty vs. Rommel Mod, a Britpak (which changes all Ami tanks for Brit tanks), my favourite Ostpak which has graphic changes beyond compare, and many beand new scenario all about 50x better than the regular game's.

Quote:

I haven't had it on my HD for a couple of years but I remember there was this great mod pack in progress (Panzer Elite Development Group or some such) which was in the process of replacing everything with British units c. 1944. I waited for about 6 months but only one scenario appeared.

I have tried to do some work for this community, but let me tell you. Take what you'd spend on a civ scenario, times 10, and you get about 1/5 of a PE scenario. They take awhile.

Quote:

Hadn't realised there was still an active mod community - any top sites you can recommend?

Of course. The main forum for the game is:
http://www.wingssimulations.com/cgi-...ultimatebb.cgi

Now, I am a big fan particularly of the Ostpak team. They are pretty much the most prolific and the most professional of them, friendly guys too. Their site (with a small forum too) can be found at: http://www.derkampfpanzer.de/

You can see their Ostpak series, with the 20 something scenarios they've got out now.

I will attatch some pictures from a few of my Ostpak games...

Quote:

If you liked the close combat series you'll love CM - its basically a 3D version. Its published by Battlefront, who sell it through mail order:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.htm

The graphics out of the box are pretty good, but there are some exceptional mods available:

http://www.combatmission.com/mods/mods.asp

You won't be dissappointed if you buy it!

Cool, I'll check it out. Throw some screenies from your games my way! I am really interested.

Here are soime screenies of PE. I'll talk about each mod etc.

This is the start of the Ostpak training mission. Note the barbed wire, it is 2d because it isnt really supported in the game, but this is a mod feature. Same goes for the infantry around the pak88. The vanilla game has no inf manning the guns... Trees, houses, tank skins and models all community made here.

klesh · February 1, 2003, 12:57

Here is a shot with the Monty vs. Rommel mod loaded. Again the 2d sprites for the infantry, But you rarely fight this close to them. I set it up for a screenie.

klesh · February 1, 2003, 13:06

Here I can be seen lining up the panzers with another zug. Teaming up like this with the AI is very effective. Not many targets can withstand a 20 tank attack.

klesh · February 1, 2003, 13:16

There is also a kickarse Mod by 2 German brothers. Lars and Eric Lenort. They made one that allows you to play at winter/ at night

/ and switch all the Ami tanks with Soviet. Its top shelf stuff for sure, but you can only play with this set on the Normandy set of maps. I'll see about getting a few of those...

-FMK.

fairline · February 1, 2003, 14:50

Those mods look excellent, FMK. I particularly like the Monty vs Rommel graphics. Do you know if its part of the add-ons bundled with the special edition PE?

As for Combat Mission, while the graphics are similar the gameplay is somewhat different. Think Close Combat in 3D, with a novel turn-based order phase and real-time action phase. Its a must for any WW2 tank anorak - every tank, vehicle and gun fielded by the US, UK, Poland, Canada, Free French and Germans from 1944-45 is available, with variations in graphics for airborne forces, Heer, SS and Fallschirmjager.

Unlike PE setting up a scenario is quick - there's an excellent scenario editor. Pretty much every major battle has been simulated by the mod community:

http://ns9.super-hosts.com/~dragonla...combatmission/

The only down side is that no campaign mode is available. Still, you can play battles ranging from platoon actions to full-on divisional strength encounters with variations in graphics for time, weather and even season.

Now for some screenies: standard zoom, US forces move in on Aachen

klesh · February 1, 2003, 14:59

Wait a minute, these mods have a turn #? This isnt a realtime thing?

fairline · February 1, 2003, 15:06

crap. I'll have another go:

fairline · February 1, 2003, 15:11

German SS:

fairline · February 1, 2003, 15:16

The zoom function allows you to overview the whole battlefield or zoom in on individual units. BTW, the infantry are 3D, unlike PE. Check out the Screaming Eagles patch on these 101st Airborne troops:

klesh · February 1, 2003, 15:17

bah, realtime + action phases, sorry didnt get that. PE has a campaign mode, but its like Panzer Commanders in that it is linear. Nothing you do will effect the next scneario apart from if you've lost any tanks... your soldiers and armoured units are in your pool for the duration.

fairline · February 1, 2003, 15:19

And the seasonal graphics: British 7th Armoured Cromwell, Winter 1944

klesh · February 1, 2003, 15:35

I'm looking at the site now, looks really snazzy. The demo is too much for my 56k to handle, but I am tempted to go for it (60mb). How is the gameplay? PE is, as you know, very sim-like. Not arcadey at all. There are seetings to reduce the skills needed though.

What about in-game. Are there any airstrikes or artilley/ smoke barrages to be called in?

Here we have the PzKwIII's in the snow outside of Moscow, facing the Soviet winter offensive... a tough one indeed!.

-FMK.

klesh · February 1, 2003, 15:45

Uh oh, I was really enjoying what I was reading, untill this:

Quote:

SCOPE

Each turn is equal to 60 seconds of combat. Players give orders in a turn-based fashion, and then these orders are simultaneously executed for 60 seconds of "real time". Then the next orders phase begins. A typical scenario lasts about 20-40 turns, or 20-40 minutes of simulated combat but this can be adjusted by the player.

That much interruption would appear to break the immersiveness, no?

-FMK.

fairline · February 1, 2003, 15:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
bah, realtime + action phases, sorry didnt get that.

Yup - real time would be ok for the smaller platoon actions but when you're dealing with divisions there are hundreds of units to control. Basically, you set movement and firing commands for each unit ( individual tanks and squads of infantry) for the next 60 seconds. When you're done you move to the action phase and the commands are played out by both sides. Sounds kinda awkward, but it works well.

BTW, if you buy it, the first thing you should do is get rid of the standard terrain graphics (the grass is a horrible bright green). The best I've found for the Summer terrain are made by a guy named Magua.

http://www.combatmission.com/mods/grass.asp

fairline · February 1, 2003, 16:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
Uh oh, I was really enjoying what I was reading, untill this:

That much interruption would appear to break the immersiveness, no?

-FMK.

The thing to remember is that PE and CM are 2 very different beasts. They are both very accurate in terms of armour thickness, gun ranges etc, but PE is effectively a firt-person tank sim whereas CM is a tactical/ stategic game. I like both approaches - trust me, the turn-based thing works well; if it was wholly real-time it would be a nightmare to control. However, don't buy CM if you are after the same sense of 'being there' that PE gives you.

Airstrikes, artillery shoots, smoke, morale effects - all included in CM

fairline · February 1, 2003, 16:18

Just found out that Panzer Elite Special Edition and Combat Mission 2 Op Barbarossa are bundled as a 2-game deal in Amazon.co.uk. for 55 quid. What the hell, it's only money

FMK do you know if the L&L Russian mod and PEDG mods are included on the special edition? like you I've got a 56k connection and it would take an eternity to dl them.

klesh · February 1, 2003, 18:07

Yup, L&L Snow/Night, PEDG Mod, Monty vs. Rommel, Ostpak and a few more are all available with the PESE- Second Edition. To tell you the truth, this is one game that I went out and bought a 2nd copy of just to show my supprt for them. They've opened the source code, and released all kinds of tools as they realize its the modders that are keeping the game, and hopes for PE 2 alive.

Well I am a fan of course of the Close Combat series, so I dont mind simulating WWII in a differnt light, but I was under the assumption that this was a tank sim. Its okay though.

So when you go into these 'action' phases, do you then command one of the zugs, a soldier, or somesuch? Or are you a roaming camera that allows you to keep track ofg things (more the CC idea).

By the way. I screwed up my CC5 terribly. I must've uninstalled it improperly like a year ago, I have no idea... but when I go to install the game now, the installation stops because it cannot find: 'data3.cab' I believe it is.... I tell it to look on the disk but no dice. I emailed the company and everything but they are of no help.

Unfortunately there is alot of errors with the re-release of PE. There is a Errata file to be found at the site which shows you how to change everythign to get it to work. The forum is chaulk full of newbies who are ultimately frustrated... I've been there too. But once you get things all straightened out.... its a blast.

(for instance, the self-installer for the bonus mod CD actually incorrectly creates the filepath in your directories when installing 'some' but not all of the mods...
C:\Program Files\PanzerElite\Mods\Ostpak
where it should be...
C:\Program Files\PanzerElite\Mods\Ostpak\Ostpak

Stupid stuff like that that makes people who arent able to fix things in their computers not want to play the game.

So you've caught my attention again.... tell me more about the action phase...

-FMK.

fairline · February 2, 2003, 05:54

Quote:

Yup, L&L Snow/Night, PEDG Mod, Monty vs. Rommel, Ostpak and a few more are all available with the PESE- Second Edition. To tell you the truth, this is one game that I went out and bought a 2nd copy of just to show my supprt for them. They've opened the source code, and released all kinds of tools as they realize its the modders that are keeping the game, and hopes for PE 2 alive.

Excellent, I think I'll fork out the 55 quid and buy it. Seems a shame that Wings cocked up the mod installer though - I've visited their site and it doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem.

Quote:

So when you go into these 'action' phases, do you then command one of the zugs, a soldier, or somesuch? Or are you a roaming camera that allows you to keep track ofg things (more the CC idea).

Uk-oh, I think your going to loose interest at this point, but stick with me here. You command all the units on the battlefield, as in close combat. This can be anything from a few squads of infantry to a division with tanks, support vehicles, artillery spotters, the works. Incidentally, the blokes who made this game know their stuff - when you are selecting units for a scenario you choose actual platoons / zugs with the right number of troops and vehicles for the particular month of the war you are playing. Your interaction with the game takes place entirely during the orders phase when the action is frozen. You can issue complicated movement and fire orders to each individual unit, or group orders to companies. Think of this as your 'turn' in civ 2.

Next you move to the real-time action phase, when your orders are carried out at the same time as the AI units move. You cannot interact with the game during this point, but you can roam around the battlefield to view the action. * FMK wanders off in disgust at this point *. Your units aren't stupid though: if they come across the enemy they will stop and fire, or retreat as necessary even though you ordered them to carry on moving. You can replay the action phase as many times as you like to view the action from different perspectives. The graphics and effects during the action phase are superb (better than PE).

I know what your thinking - this sounds a bit ****y, but it honestly works well. Think of the orders phase as your turn in civ2, and the action phase as the AI turns.

As you say, PE can't be beaten as a sim and really involves you in the action, while CM is more strategic wargame. The level of detail puts it in a different league to the close combat series.

Caspian · February 2, 2003, 17:51

Hey, while you're on this topic maybe can someone offer up some advice for me. For my birthday I was given Panzer Elite S.E. afew weeks ago. I am half way through the desert campaign (axis). I'm using a panzer IV for my command tank and 1st wingman. Now I'm not sure which panzer III varient to equip the remaining wingmen with. They're using the Pz IIIN at the moment. would it be better to equip them with the longer barrelled (but lesser calibre) PzIIIJ? Which is the better anti-tank weapon?

fairline · February 2, 2003, 18:56

One last CM screenie: a graphic mod I did for the Archer SP anti-tank gun:

fairline · February 2, 2003, 19:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Caspian
.. Now I'm not sure which panzer III varient to equip the remaining wingmen with. The're using the Pz IIIN at the moment. would it be better to equip them with the longer barrelled (but lesser calibre) PzIIIJ? Which is the better anti-tank weapon?

FMK will know this, I'm sure, and as I told you its been a long while since I played PE. However, if the game is accurate (and I recall it was extremely accurate in terms of gun effectiveness and ammunition types) the long barrelled 50mm used by later versions of the Pz III was a better antitank gun than the short barrelled 75mm, which had originally been fitted to PzIVDs, when using standard ammunition early in the war, while the 75mm was a better HE gun. By the time the 75mm was fitted to the PzIIIN there was a shaped-charge AT round available which gave it a better anti-tank capability than the 50mm. So, as long as you use the special ammo it would be better to use the PzIIIN.

Apologies for the extreme tank geeky-ness of my knowing this useless piece of information

Caspian · February 3, 2003, 07:34

Well, thanks very much

. So the advice is to use the panzer IIIN with its short gun, but use special AP against tanks as this is superior to the gun on the J.

klesh · February 3, 2003, 19:30

Hey guys, this is great! Finally some kids from Poly I can rap WWII tanks with.

Well, yes fairlane pretty much handled this question of yours Caspian. Esentially the thing to note with AT guns is velocity. The faster the better, and of course, the longer the gun, the faster the salvo.

Caspian, I too have been in a PE capaign as of late. This is what I consider the King Kong of them all....'Tiger Ace'. Its the full 3 theatres that are in the vanilla game, + all of the scenarios the Ostpak team has put together spliced in at their historical time. Best of all, you play as a Schwere Panzer zug, with Tigers from the start (Afrika). From there its off to the east front to participate in 5 Zitadelle missions with 2nd SS Das Reich. Back to Italy for the standard game there, then some Normandy, Ostpak team Ardennes missions, and then you end the war in Hungary fighting waves of IS-2s. Not only are the Ostpak team scenarios graphics altered, but when you play this Tiger Ace, you have to have Ostpak loaded, thus you see an altered set of tanks and terrain for the 'default' scenarios. This Grand Campaign is the longest and most fluid of all, IMHO. (I dont know how much you are aware of the intricacies of PE and its Mod wierdness/ useability)

Thats a very Nice Archer there fairlane! How exactly do you 'skin' a tank in CM? The files for tanks in PE is simply jawdropping with its complexity, hardly even worth attempting for me. Hrmpf.

Also, Caspian, have you DL'ed "Whitman's Medal fix" for PE yet? You'll find that you dont get nearly as many medals as you should in-game. Some of this has been fixed but others ( such as the Pz Assault Badge with Kills[25,75]) do not work at all as PE doesnt actually keep count of how many total tanks you kill. For some reason, it resets, and the community canot fix it all. The file does however make it possible to recieve more than without it.

Here 'I' am just having finnished the largest tank vs tank battle in history, just south of Prokhorovka, near Kursk.

*Note flashy medals*
Only one of my Tigers had track damage due to enemy Arty blast during the battle. Heh.

-FMK.

Craig P. · February 4, 2003, 00:06

Quote:

Originally posted by fairline
Your units aren't stupid though: if they come across the enemy they will stop and fire, or retreat as necessary even though you ordered them to carry on moving.

Actually, sometimes they are stupid, but that's intentional and part of the charm. You never know how a squad will react to taking fire, within certain parameters.

CMBO covers the western front, and is acknowledged as not being as accurate as CMBB, the later eastern front edition.

Alexander's Horse · February 4, 2003, 00:08

Go Panzer elite!

Darius871 · February 4, 2003, 10:06

wrong thread

klesh · February 4, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Go Panzer elite!

Wow, I can't tell if you're trolling or you actually play these games?

-FMK.

Caspian · February 4, 2003, 18:32

I haven't downloaded anything new for PE yet FMK. I've been playing the Vanilla version just to get to grips with the game. It is my first tank simulator except perhaps for something I had on the Amiga called 'pacific islands'. Can I get these dl's from one of the addys on this thread?

klesh · February 5, 2003, 00:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Caspian
I haven't downloaded anything new for PE yet FMK. I've been playing the Vanilla version just to get to grips with the game.

Ooooh, nice. You'll be in for a treat.

Think WWII by Microprose vs RedFront.

Quote:

It is my first tank simulator except perhaps for something I had on the Amiga called 'pacific islands'.

Ouch, you're showing your age there my friend.

Quote:

Can I get these dl's from one of the addys on this thread?

Absolutely. The Ostpak can be found at Derkampfpanzer.de . Here is a few screenies from that site, showing additions they've made to the terrain and landscape as well as the changes to the tank 3D models:

This is from the newest 'Winterpak' additions to Ostpak.

Things like the windmill are exclusively done for this Mod only.

Things like this multi-angular roadsign have been one of the innovations by the Ostpak community.

See PM for details.

-FMK.

fairline · February 5, 2003, 20:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh

Thats a very Nice Archer there fairlane! How exactly do you 'skin' a tank in CM? The files for tanks in PE is simply jawdropping with its complexity, hardly even worth attempting for me. Hrmpf.

It's dead simple in CM - there are 6 or 7 bitmap files for the hull sides, top, turret etc. Some of the mods available are simply awesome works of art.

Quote:

Here 'I' am just having finnished the largest tank vs tank battle in history, just south of Prokhorovka, near Kursk.

*Note flashy medals*
Only one of my Tigers had track damage due to enemy Arty blast during the battle. Heh.

-FMK.

Well, all this talk of PE has rekindled my interest.... I just received my copy of PESE today - I'd forgotten how great a game it was... and how difficult

FMK, How on earth did you (a) survive the campaign, and (b) get such good stats

If it's not too much trouble, can you walk me through the mods/patches you need for the full-on Ostpak campaign. I fancy a go at it (on pansy realism setting, of course

)

Also, I've had a couple of crashes playing the Britpack and MontyvRommel scenarios. Will the latest pese patch solve this? - it's just so big that I can't be arsed downloading it.