I have a question about marriage. - Page 2

MRT144 · February 3, 2003, 05:14

thats the way i feel skanky. i think there should be two marriges. the "young marrige" and the "Wise marrige".

and actually its worked out this way for a lot of divorced people i know

Dis · February 3, 2003, 05:17

yeah but for guys its cheaper to avoid the young marriage

I disagree with the notion of alimony. I just don't get why it exists in the first place. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

MRT144 · February 3, 2003, 05:31

i think its an artifact from a generation when women didnt work and were basicly destitute after a divorce

Rufus T. Firefly · February 3, 2003, 05:42

As I see it, three big social revolutions of the 1960s have rasied the divorce rate:
1) No-fault divorce, which some have already mentioned. The ability to get a divorce without first proving that the other party did something wrong (like battery or adultery) had the most immediate effect; it allowed couples who had simply made a mistake to acknowledge it and move on.

(It would be foolish, though, to imagine that marriages were more "solid" before no-fault divorce. They were simply different. Many marriages endurred without love, for the sake of social convention; my parents had one of those. Also, infidelity on the part of men was more tolerated; even today, in low-divorce-rate Turkey, I know a number of modern, westernized, upper-middle-class women who know their husbands have mistresses, and don't care. Finally, what often preceded no-fault divorce was the fairly common situation of men abandoning their families [weirdly enough, a fair number of the more prominant fighters at the Alamo had abandoned families back East; I don't know what that means, but have always found it interesting]).

2) The end of the "family wage." Before the 60s, coporations tended to pay men as if they were supporting a family, and pay women as if they were just earning extra money. In the 60s and 70s this ended, in part due to feminism but mostly because it served the corporations economic interests to do so. Now, women can earn as much as men in a comparable job; moreover, most men can't earn enough at a middle-class job to support a middle-class family themselves. Thus, the oldest incentive for women to stay married -- economic security -- was greatly lessened.

3) The birth control pill. Marriage has always been, to some extent, about the regulation of women's sexuality; hence the long-standing emphasis on a bride's virginity. It made sense for women to acquiesce to this system when sex could lead to pregnancy, which could then lead to social ostracization when it happened outside of marriage. But give women the ability to have sex without risking pregnancy, and marriage becomes less necessary as a route to sexual fulfillment -- something I suspect many of us have benefitted from.

MRT144 · February 3, 2003, 05:50

on #3...or a lack of caused us to age faster than we were ready to do

CerberusIV · February 3, 2003, 06:07

In the UK fewer and fewer people regularly attend church and actively practice religion (Christian anyway) so maybe the lack of traditional spiritual values about marriage has something to do with it.

(No, I'm not a religious fundie, I don't go to church and I'm not married anyway)

What put me off marriage was going to one of those exhibitions about wedding services, the ones with photographers, car hire and all the rest of it. One look at all those mothers in law to be with $$££ signs in their eyes and the thought of some poor father in law to be paying for it all was too much. Especially when the realisation that I might have daughters one day hit home. Marriage can be too much about money.

My partner and I have lived together for 12 years and not getting married probably saved her father from a heart attack or bankruptcy.

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 06:13

One of the reasons repsect for religion disapperaed was the fact that if you unknowingly married a man who beatt you up and raped your kids you had to stay with him.

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 06:25

That always puzzled me.

You find out some stranger passing through your town had raped your daughter the previous night. What do you think the right thing to do is?
Throw the bastard in jail? No!
Force your daughter to marry him!

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
That always puzzled me.

You find out some stranger passing through your town had raped your daughter the previous night. What do you think the right thing to do is?
Throw the bastard in jail? No!
Force your daughter to marry him!

Thats to do with the bollocks about having to marry a virgin. The woman would be seen to be soiled by being raped. So they wouldn't be able to marry her off to anyone.

Thats what happens when women are treated as property.( which the Christian marriage sevice perpetuates to this day)

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 06:33

Which is part of the reason I'm no longer a practicing catholic.

Rufus T. Firefly · February 3, 2003, 08:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Which is part of the reason I'm no longer a practicing catholic.

You are not alone in this.

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 09:19

Thank god.

Yes, I am aware of the irony.

Jon Miller · February 3, 2003, 10:06

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger

Thats to do with the bollocks about having to marry a virgin. The woman would be seen to be soiled by being raped. So they wouldn't be able to marry her off to anyone.

Thats what happens when women are treated as property.( which the Christian marriage sevice perpetuates to this day)

1/10

Jon Miller

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 10:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Miller

1/10

Jon Miller

Not a Troll.

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 10:27

Yes, truth can't be labelled as a troll.

DanielXY · February 3, 2003, 11:09

The question is not why there are so many divorces... The real question is why ppl. marry

If you are rational about it there is just no reason to do it (other than religious maybe).
Marriage is basicly commitment. Why do you want to be commited or why should your partner be commited to you? Do you really want your partner to stay with you out of practical reasons (damn that devorce stuff is complicated ... what property belongs to who again... etc)?
I prefer relationsships which both can end at anytime. Only this way you can be sure your partner is with you cose s/he really wants to and not cose of some other bs (money or whatever).

Imran Siddiqui · February 3, 2003, 11:14

Quote:

1/10

That much?!

I'd have given it a .001/10

.

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 11:17

Quote:

Originally posted by DanielXY
The question is not why there are so many divorces... The real question is why ppl. marry

If you are rational about it there is just no reason to do it (other than religious maybe).
Marriage is basicly commitment. Why do you want to be commited or why should your partner be commited to you? Do you really want your partner to stay with you out of practical reasons (damn that devorce stuff is complicated ... what property belongs to who again... etc)?
I prefer relationsships which both can end at anytime. Only this way you can be sure your partner is with you cose s/he really wants to and not cose of some other bs (money or whatever).

Making a good point doesn't make you imune to the DL dance,

Imran:

Imran Siddiqui · February 3, 2003, 11:19

Quote:

Making a good point doesn't make you imune to the DL dance

Hey... I thought it did. Intelligence is the only respite from the dance

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 11:19

My post was serious it wasn't a troll.

Why else id there a bit where you give the bride away.

DanielXY · February 3, 2003, 11:23

<--- Doesnt let Imran steal his good points...

<--- Is no DL!

Imran Siddiqui · February 3, 2003, 11:26

Quote:

Why else id there a bit where you give the bride away.

Because it is a nice tradition that shows that Daddy has no problem with Daddy's little girl to marry the brute that is to be her future husband. All it is is saying that the parents have no complaints with the guy.

Skanky Burns · February 3, 2003, 11:26

Don't worry

[Simpsons mode]
No-one from Germany could be evil![/Simpsons mode]

boann · February 3, 2003, 11:26

rufus , those are good answers.

im somewhat in agreement with those who also
said women don't want to put up with as much as they used to.

and AH i doubt you would feel the same if you found out your wife had a little action on the side.
oh but the female is supposed to look the other way while the male just does his thang
bah. MSP response
a troll , id give it a 10 since you got my dander up.

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 11:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

Why else id there a bit where you give the bride away.

Because it is a nice tradition that shows that Daddy has no problem with Daddy's little girl to marry the brute that is to be her future husband. All it is is saying that the parents have no complaints with the guy.

Exactly, Daddy has to say its ok for the daughter to marry. It implies ownership. It may not be seen like that any more buts that what it means

Imran Siddiqui · February 3, 2003, 11:52

Quote:

Exactly, Daddy has to say its ok for the daughter to marry. It implies ownership. It may not be seen like that any more buts that what it means

You read too much into things. I mean, really, you've never seen a marriage where someone other than the father gave the wife away? I'm sure her best friend didn't 'own' her, but he gave her away... what does that mean?

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 12:00

Most of it now is just tradition. But originally the church marriage transferred the woman form her father to her new husband. The new Husband could do what he wanted and the woman until recently couldn't do anything about it.

I don't want to stop people getting married in a church they should just realise what the cereomony derives from.

Imran Siddiqui · February 3, 2003, 12:05

Quote:

Most of it now is just tradition.

That ain't what you said:

Quote:

Thats what happens when women are treated as property.( which the Christian marriage sevice perpetuates to this day)

(emphasis mine)

MrFun · February 3, 2003, 12:08

I agree with a lot of the suggestions, but I have to strongly disagree with Zylka's earlier post about gay unions making all marriages less meaningful.

For one thing, many homosexuals have lost interest in forcing any religion to recognize and carry out gay marriage ceremonies. Now, many of us advocate that the state and federal governments should allow for secular, gay civil union ceremonies that have the same legal legitimacy.

There are many heterosexuals, as others have alluded to here, that have caused more damage to marriage, than homosexuals.

I think in today's society maybe something like 5% to 10% of all failed marriages end up in divorce, because now, more spouses are coming out when they realize they're actually gay or lesbian, rather than stifle themselves in the closet.

TheStinger · February 3, 2003, 12:09

I meant that the Christain Church pepetuates it by not altering its service. It must still mean the same as it always did. However the people getting married only see it as a tradition thing.

The Church should alter its service or come out and say that its original meaning was wrong.

None of this matters in the UK as most people getting married in a Church wouldn't know the difference between the old and new testaments let alone what the marriage ceremony means.