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View Poll Results: Shall the Senate pass Enabeling legislation of the Persian campaign
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Yea
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50.00% |
Nay
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50.00% |
Abstain
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February 4, 2003, 11:49
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#31
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
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I'm fairly sure the Greeks are less agressive than the Persians.
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
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February 4, 2003, 11:57
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#32
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Emperor
Local Time: 17:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Haifa, Israel
Posts: 5,474
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They are. Persia has the aggressiveness rating of 4, while Greece is rated as 3.
__________________
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see,
Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
- Phantom of the Opera
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February 4, 2003, 12:10
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#33
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Emperor
Local Time: 17:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
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hi ,
Roadcage the link is not working properly , here is the correct link ; http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...2&goto=newpost
have a nice day
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February 4, 2003, 12:18
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#34
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Botanic Garden, Rio
Posts: 5,124
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Hmmm... 3 is aggressive enough to me. In Emperor level, we can't trust anyone... even ourselves!
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February 4, 2003, 13:58
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#35
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Botanic Garden, Rio
Posts: 5,124
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We need a "plan B", due the strong opposition to any RoP. And I agree, one little hole in our Maginot Line and we're ******. We'll need to close almost ALL borders, not just our Greek frontiers. They have a RoP with Aztecs, for exemple.
Quote:
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Originally posted by roadcage
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Without a RoP Samaria in 2 and Hamadan in 3
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This is better than mine.
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February 4, 2003, 14:05
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#36
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Emperor
Local Time: 17:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Haifa, Israel
Posts: 5,474
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Maybe if we send our diplomats to launch an investigation of the two Persian cities, it would give us some insight.
__________________
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see,
Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
- Phantom of the Opera
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February 4, 2003, 17:16
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#37
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Prince
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Minneapolis Kansas
Posts: 712
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Plan "B" is as follows
No RoP
Turn 1 objectives
Cav stack Konigsburg 17 (in Persia)
Arty Stack E-town 9 aka Samaria 15 (in Persia)
Do the Cav first, just in case there is a Persian on Konigsburg 17. That way we can bombard a little and take the pressure off of the Cav and still take the tile.
Corps of Engineers estimate: 0 this turn
Turn 2 objectives
bombard Samaria
take Samaria
rail through Samaria 15,14,4,8 (and others for CP reasons)
Advance Cav Stack to Samaria 17 (Persia)
If occupied by Persia, bombard and call in Khufu
Advance unfired Artys to Samaria 17 once cleared
Corps of Engineers estimate: 9 domestics + CP needs say 15 total
Turn 3 objectives
bombard Hamadan
Take Hamadan
rail to Hamadan (and several tier 1 tiles for CP reasons)
If there are Persians on Samaria 17 it might take 4 turns.
Corps of Engineers estimate: 7 domestics + CP needs say 13 total
__________________
I used to be a builder. That was before I played Civ III
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February 4, 2003, 17:17
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#38
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Prince
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 733
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Unless we our going for a UN victory, which I am against, there is no need for a RoP just so we can attack one city belonging to a hopeless civ. I am ok with attacking Persia, but I don't want a RoP with Greece.
__________________
Citizen of the Apolyton team in the ISDG
Currently known as Senor Rubris in the PTW DG team
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February 4, 2003, 19:09
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#39
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: of the Free World
Posts: 7,296
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E_T, et al,
What influence will conquering the Persian cities have on corruption in other cities in our current empire?
I believe it actually WON'T hurt us because I think the Persian cities are further away than other FP-centric cities, but it wouldn't hurt to double-check.
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February 4, 2003, 20:56
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#40
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Deity
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
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What is going to be the maintenance cost per turn on this vast number of workers/units we will use to build this unbreakable wall around our entire border and coast?
The workers will be useless as they can do nothing but stand there as isn't that many things they can do to one single tile to keep them occupied for the entire RoP is there?
Last edited by GhengisFarb™; February 4, 2003 at 21:26.
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February 4, 2003, 21:16
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#41
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King
Local Time: 07:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 2,192
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A worker wall, by the way, is pretty much useless on a land border, as opposed to a sea invasion, such as the one that was a possibility on Uber Isle.
The fact is, if we have a worker wall in place (I have rethought my position very carefully on this), that isn't enough to stop Alexander from invading us. Workers have no defense value, other than taking up space.
The result, if Alex decided to attack the "worker wall", would be that we would lose workers, and Alex would have a hugely strategic advantage, being able to flank our military and cut into the industrial center of our empire.
I don't wish to sacrifice workers to go the front lines and defend a border that would be better suited defended by staggered, defensive military units.
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February 4, 2003, 21:24
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#42
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Deity
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
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EDIT: Delayed double post.
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February 4, 2003, 22:01
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#43
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Settler
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6
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I absolutely HATE saying no to this. I believe roadcage's plan to be brilliant, and I'm just sorry the possible reward to the venture he proposes doesn't justify the risk of the ROP with Greece.
Part of the downside of being a strong nation is that when evaluating a risk/reward situation, it becomes necessary to become more cautious. We have much to lose, and in this particular situation, comparatively little to gain.
I do wholeheartedly support and encourage a campaign to have the head of Xerxes adorn the walls of the Macross palace. This can be accomplished by far more mundane means than the Roadcage Gambit.
It still saddens me to be an opponent of such a beautiful and diabolical plan. I am thrilled to count roadcage as a fellow Apolytonian and not an adversary.
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February 4, 2003, 22:27
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#44
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Prince
Local Time: 11:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Proud to be an American
Posts: 759
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Welcome WaxTadpole. You'll want to join the DIA...
Quote:
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Part of the downside of being a strong nation is that when evaluating a risk/reward situation, it becomes necessary to become more cautious. We have much to lose, and in this particular situation, comparatively little to gain.
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Quite.
__________________
"The Enrichment Center is required to inform you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake"
Former President, C3SPDGI
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February 4, 2003, 22:33
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#45
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Emperor
Local Time: 11:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,183
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Nicely said, Wax Tadpole! :b
__________________
Proud Member of the ISDG Apolyton Team; Member #2 in the Apolyton Yact Club.
King of Trafalgar and Lord of all Isolationia in the Civ III PTW Glory of War team.
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May God Bless.
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February 4, 2003, 23:12
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#46
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King
Local Time: 07:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 2,192
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Thud
Welcome WaxTadpole. You'll want to join the DIA...
Quite.
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More shameless recruiting....
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February 5, 2003, 00:18
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#47
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The DoD
Posts: 8,619
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Aro
We need a "plan B", due the strong opposition to any RoP. And I agree, one little hole in our Maginot Line and we're ******.
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Actually, as long as that hole was created by Alex attacking, we'd be okay city-wise; if at war with somebody, you can't use their roads or rails.
But I agree; no ROP, just war with Persia. It's an unnecessary risk.
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February 5, 2003, 00:33
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#48
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King
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Of GOW's half of BOB
Posts: 1,847
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Now for the purpose of allowing the war I Think we can safetly say the vote is "for" war and against the ROP. So even if this loses we could go forward with war since enough no's voted only against rop and not war.
__________________
The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.
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February 5, 2003, 00:53
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#49
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The DoD
Posts: 8,619
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That's the way it should work, but it sounds like court material. Is it too late to join the anarchists?
But since FAM Shiber has expressed his opposition to a ROP whether or not it's authorized, this bill will hopefully pass and we can proceed.
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February 5, 2003, 01:50
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#50
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Prince
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Minneapolis Kansas
Posts: 712
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I hope everyone finally sees what is wrong with the SPDG governace system. The need to keep the game moving coupled with the rediculous voting proceedure insures that there is insufficient concensus building prior to beginning the vote.
It happens on every issue. And it will never change until we change the system.
We Need: A mechanism to announce that a vote on some general issue will be held. In RL bills are introduced and modified in committee and by floor amendments. Introducing the bill more or less announces that there could be a vote on something that is germane to the title of the bill. Legislators are well aware of this and tend to craft "kitchen sink" bill titles. But I digress. The ammendment process refines the bill so that when it reaches the floor, there is a reasonable expectation that something will happen. It is rare indeed when the final bill is close to the original bill.
This is most definately NOT how things work here. We are forced to put up the bill in final form far too early in the process. No modifiction, no peer review, nothing. Everything is driven by the 72 hour requirement.
And it doesn't help that certain influential posters to these pages ave a pattern and practice of deliberately remaining silent during what little concensus building period we have, and then come out all negatory about anything and everythng. We all know who they are. There is no real need to single them out.
We Need: To permit free and open debate to develop on the forum that is condusive to determining where the votes are and what the consensus is. We need to FORCE posters to enter into the debate early.
We Need: A mechanism that starts the 72 hour clock but does not commit language to the bill, just a bill title.
We can quibble on how to carve up that 72 hour period. But the fact remains da bird needs to be carved.
__________________
I used to be a builder. That was before I played Civ III
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February 5, 2003, 02:08
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#51
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The DoD
Posts: 8,619
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I don't see a problem with bill refinement; pre-poll threads can work everything out.
The real problem, as you point out, is time; while most polls can go through a lengthy pre-poll discussion, in this case, we're delaying a chat as it is; a pre-poll would have taken even longer. This could have been solved in several ways - multiple bills as Aggie suggested, or simply authorizing many courses of action and leaving it to the ministers to hash the final decision out with the forum. But these delays may not always be preventable, so this is something we must consider. One solution we definitely need is multi-choice senate bills; looking back on things, it's amazing this wasn't included in the NewCon; but we have to blame ourselves for not seeing that.
As for shortening/changing time requirements... it comes down to speed vs. inclusion. Do we want people who only visit once or twice a week to be able to be involved in the game? In the past, we've answered yes; hence the poll time requirement being set at 72 hours. Now that we just want to win the game, does that still hold true? This subject probably warrants its own thread...
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February 5, 2003, 02:47
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#52
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Prince
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Minneapolis Kansas
Posts: 712
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I am not eliminating the 72 hour requirement. We announce that there will be a vote in 3 days time. The casual visitor still has the same chance of seeing the notification, and hence being able to vote. He just needs to remember to come back when the vote is ripe.
And the pre-discussions we have had have consistently been abysmal. Few people participate in the pre-discussions. In the current case I was encourged by several influential members of our forum to post EXACTLY what got posted. I was led to believe that the concensus was formed. And you see what happened.
The current system is hopeless. We would be far better off with a senate with purely oversite powers. There is a reason that Civ starts out in despotism. We may have the requisite techs in-game, but out here in the Forum we're still trying to get a handle on warrior code.
__________________
I used to be a builder. That was before I played Civ III
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February 5, 2003, 02:51
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#53
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Emperor
Local Time: 11:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 8,807
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I come back from my Vacation on Uber Island and I find that we want to go to war against Persia? :ROFLMAO:
Lets have a little peace for a while, so that we can get our military built up and we CAN have a ROP without any worries about being backstabbed, because we will be strong everywhere.
We have other concerns for the Nation at the moment, and Persia isn't really one of them.
Vote No.
E_T
__________________
Worship the Comic here!
Term IV Deputy Foreign Minister for Trade of Apolytonia, Term V CP & Term VI DM of Apolytonia, Term VII SMC of Apolytonia - SPDGI
Minister of the Interior of the PTW InterSite Demo Game
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February 5, 2003, 04:58
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#54
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: of the Free World
Posts: 7,296
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Aggie
Now for the purpose of allowing the war I Think we can safetly say the vote is "for" war and against the ROP. So even if this loses we could go forward with war since enough no's voted only against rop and not war.
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Should the government actually attempt such a flagrant violation, I'd be more than willing to take them to Court on it.
You want a war? You have to PASS a war bill.
As for the necessity of a war, I'm agreeing with E_T on this one... the timing just isn't right. If you bloodthirsty warmongers would just wait around long enough for those of us actually concerned about our infrastructure to get some of that in before the next series of campaigns (and don't think we don't know that a war with Persia is merely a prelude wars elsewhere ), you might not face so much opposition to such a little tiny war from otherwise pro-war individuals such as E_T.
As for the whole pre-poll issue... it's a time-consuming procedure, but it tends to work. Hell, a unofficial multiple-choice poll (such as what has been done on the GL issue) takes inordinant amounts of time, but it does a pretty good job of narrowing down the options and eventually leading to a seemingly foregone conclusion as to the final choice... perhaps that could be done for a war that need not take place TOMORROW and the nation could survive perhaps a week of discussion and polling on...
Seriously... is pathetic little Persia going to really stop us from building our spaceship or suddenly invade us with 20 armored divisions?
This can wait...
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February 5, 2003, 11:03
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#55
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Deity
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
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Quote:
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Originally posted by roadcage
And it doesn't help that certain influential posters to these pages ave a pattern and practice of deliberately remaining silent during what little concensus building period we have, and then come out all negatory about anything and everythng. We all know who they are. There is no real need to single them out.
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I hope you aren't referring to me as I posted that I would not support ANY ROP in the second post of the discussion thread.
Although, I certainly don't consider myself "influential", I tend to view my role as more of a "village idiot" position.
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February 5, 2003, 13:03
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#56
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King
Local Time: 10:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Of GOW's half of BOB
Posts: 1,847
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Arnelos
Should the government actually attempt such a flagrant violation, I'd be more than willing to take them to Court on it.
You want a war? You have to PASS a war bill.
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Your right arnelos, after much thought even I couldn't find enough wiggle room to justify this. I have encouraged others to post a bill. But one issue i would like to mention is this; Can we change our votes legally. Let me use this vote as an example. I voted no because of the ROP, however since the FAM says he won't do an ROP, I'd like to be able to change my vote to yes. Can this be done. also to make sure people don't abuse such an option we could set severe penalties if somebody lied to add a vote to their side.
Aggie
__________________
The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.
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February 5, 2003, 19:08
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#57
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Botanic Garden, Rio
Posts: 5,124
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Same as Aggie. But I don't want to change my vote, I've already voted yes.
But the arguments against the RoP convinced me. War, without RoP.
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February 5, 2003, 19:22
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#58
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King
Local Time: 07:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 2,192
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As mentioned before, this should have been two polls.... oh well
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February 6, 2003, 02:54
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#59
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: in a bush near You.
Posts: 192
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Arnelos
Seriously... is pathetic little Persia going to really stop us from building our spaceship or suddenly invade us with 20 armored divisions?
This can wait...
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This is so true!
__________________
So many pedestrians, so little time
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February 6, 2003, 14:18
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#60
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Emperor
Local Time: 17:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Arnelos
Should the government actually attempt such a flagrant violation, I'd be more than willing to take them to Court on it.
You want a war? You have to PASS a war bill.
As for the necessity of a war, I'm agreeing with E_T on this one... the timing just isn't right. If you bloodthirsty warmongers would just wait around long enough for those of us actually concerned about our infrastructure to get some of that in before the next series of campaigns (and don't think we don't know that a war with Persia is merely a prelude wars elsewhere ), you might not face so much opposition to such a little tiny war from otherwise pro-war individuals such as E_T.
As for the whole pre-poll issue... it's a time-consuming procedure, but it tends to work. Hell, a unofficial multiple-choice poll (such as what has been done on the GL issue) takes inordinant amounts of time, but it does a pretty good job of narrowing down the options and eventually leading to a seemingly foregone conclusion as to the final choice... perhaps that could be done for a war that need not take place TOMORROW and the nation could survive perhaps a week of discussion and polling on...
Seriously... is pathetic little Persia going to really stop us from building our spaceship or suddenly invade us with 20 armored divisions?
This can wait...
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hi ,
indeed we can wait and build our nation first , ....
we need banks , universities and other key buildings first before we build any armed forces , .....
and if we build armed forces they should be modern ones , ...... we should have mech infantry first , and that should not be build before most cities have a research lab (!)
have a nice day
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