Another question of cost

Adam_Smith · April 18, 2000, 22:49

What is the formula for upgrading units?

It seems to me that either Industry rating or SE choices relating to industry affect the cost of upgrading units. For example, I'm pretty sure that my upgrades are more expensive after I switch from Wealth to Power.

Enigma · April 18, 2000, 23:10

Unlike hurry costs, everything I know about unit upgrades so far tells me it is based on "bars" as opposed to straight minerals. In other words the game considers a unit of, say, cost 72 with +1 industry 8 bars or 72 minerals. If it is calculating it using bars then industry does not affect cost, if it is calculating it using cost then industry does matter.

I believe it is
(armorcost new - armorcost old) + (weaponcost new - weaponcost old) + (unitcost ned - unitcost old).

All done in bars. There is also some minimum cost the game applies to prevent you from upgrading to change around unit special abilities.

As this shows you have to pay for armor and weapons upgrades twice, but you only have to pay for abilities once.

Adam_Smith · April 19, 2000, 00:39

What is a bar?

Adam_Smith · April 19, 2000, 04:32

nevermind. I read your other post.

Enigma · April 20, 2000, 00:41

I have no idea what the extra cost that automatically appears is. I *think* that it is the above formula +20. It costs 20 to upgrade scout patrols or trance scouts to police infantry, 30 to upgrade formers to clean formers. That seems to fit in with the formula. I have much less experience with armor upgrades though..

joer · April 29, 2000, 03:31

I am pretty sure that the cost of upgrading units is not based on bars.
The most trivial example is upgrading a unit to a higher level reactor with a slighter better weapon costs more than upgrading to the same weapon type with standard reactor (i.e. from A6R1 to A8R2 costs more than from A6R1 to A8R1), regardless of production cost.
I think I got the same experience with special abilities that don't add to the production cost. I could be wrong, tho, and don't know the exact formula.
Oh yeah, and minimum upgrading costs are 10 (i.e. from 1-1-1 to 1-1t-1).
-joer

Tau Ceti · April 29, 2000, 16:05

Enigma: you got it very nearly right, but it should only be + newcost at the end, not + (newcost - oldcost). (If we start nitpicking, it is actually weapon and armor * 10 too.) Then there is no 'extra' cost attached.

Adam_Smith: I have never seen upgrade costs be affected by your Industry rating. Do you have any confirmed, demonstrable examples?

joer: Same goes for your reactor thing. I have never seen that the reactor has any influence on upgrade cost, except in as much as it affects the new unit's cost. I just tried your example, and upgrading from 6-3-1(*1) to 8-3-1(*2) was cheaper (due to lower construction cost) than upgrading to 8-3-1(*1). I saw someone else mentioning reactor as a factor here recently too; if anyone has an example, I would like to see it.

Anyway, this question came up a few months ago too, and I posted my entire findings (with some analysis) then. The thread can be found here.

Adam_Smith · April 29, 2000, 16:38

Tau Ceti,

I don't have any records, but It seems to me that my upgrades cost quite a bit more after I switch from Wealth to Power.

Ned · April 29, 2000, 23:00

Cost must be a factor. This is part of the crawler-upgrade-SP bug. For example, and these numbers are not exact since I am quoting from memory, it may cost 120 to upgrade from a fission crawler to a configuration X fission crawler, while it will cost only 100 to upgade to the same configuration X with a fusion reactor. Indeed, the configuration X with the fusion reactor costs fewer minerals, maybe as many as 30 fewer, than with the fission reactor.

This is why one must be wary of the automactic upgrades with a reactor change. One must keep the armored crawlers at the fission reactor level to maximize mineral "cost" of the upgraded crawler for SP purposes.

joer · April 30, 2000, 01:53

Ok, I just checked.
I cannot reaffirm the statements about the reactor, but I can at least say that special abilities make a difference in the calculation, even if they cost the same.
A few comparisons (mineral costs expressed in bars. I bar==10 minerals at industry 0):

Upgrading from 1-1-1 (1 bar) to 1-1t-1 (1 bar) costs 10. That's the minimum price.

Upgrading from 1-1-1 to 1~-1-1 (1 bar) costs 20, even though the amphibious unit has the same mineral cost than the standard scout and the trance scout.

Here are a few other interesting upgrade costs from a 1-1t-1 unit:
1~-3-1*2: 4 bars, 60 energy units to upgrade
1-<3>-1*2: 4 bars, 80 energy units to upgrade
1^-3-1*2: 5 bars, 70 energy units to upgrade

Thus, the higher mineral cost drop unit costs less to upgrade to than the cheaper AAA unit.

Enjoy finding the formula for that.

I will try to find a good example which shows how reactors can freak around with the upgrade cost, but I don't have one handy right now.
-joer.
[This message has been edited by joer (edited April 30, 2000).]

Adam_Smith · April 30, 2000, 04:18

Well, I'm going to check some numbers the next time I switch from Wealth to Power. I want to see if Industry matters.

Tau Ceti · May 1, 2000, 00:32

joer: Well, do not ask me what is happening, but I just tried all your examples and did not get the same results; in fact, all the results I got are consistent with my formula.

1-1-1 to 1-1t-1 : 10 energy (construction cost)
1-1-1 to 1~-1-1 : 10 energy (construction cost)
1-1t-1 to 1~-3-1*2 : 60 energy (2 armour upgrades * 10 + construction cost)
1-1t-1 to 1-<3>-1*2 : 60 energy (2 armour upgrades * 10 + construction cost)
1-1t-1 to 1^-3-1*2 : 70 energy (2 armour upgrades * 10 + construction cost)

So I am still not convinced. I would appreciate it if you could send me a save file ( larsheg@sensewave.com ) with the upgrade costs you cite. I have no idea how you got the 20 energy upgrade cost for the amphibious unit; the AAA unit could be explained if you had 3-Pulse or 3-Res armour on it instead of Plasma (3-Pulse and 3-Res cost is 5, so that would be 4 armour upgrades * 10 + construction cost).

As for reactors and industry, I can at least confirm that switching away from Eudaimonia (+2 Industry down to 0) does not affect your upgrade cost. And the upgrade cost has been tested up to upgrading scout patrols to Drop Singularity-powered Stasis Shock Troops, so I doubt you will find any examples where reactor is a factor in itself. I still have not seen with my own eyes any example that does not fit into the formula.

Chowlett · February 21, 2001, 08:16

BUMP! - for lbores