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View Poll Results: Did Powell shoot himself in the foot?
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Yes
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No
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Bananas
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February 6, 2003, 01:49
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#31
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Deity
Local Time: 23:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Ted is spot on. He is very into how he feels about someone personally. He's very unpolitical about things in that way.
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That's worse - that means you have a kid with a very large bat in power. If he is willing to get lots and lots people killed, to flush billions of dollars down the drain, and to impoverish the Iraqi people as a whole, just to get at this one person, this is Very Bad. That means he doesn't think with his head. You don't want somebody like him in power.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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February 6, 2003, 01:50
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#32
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Settler
Local Time: 17:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
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why do you associate feelings of serenity with drugs?
that's what destroyed the hippie movement in the US.
That's also why the Communist party of Greece said no to drugs. One of its moments of rare sobriety
edit: threadjacking sorry
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February 6, 2003, 01:51
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#33
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Local Time: 11:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
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Quote:
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That's worse - that means you have a kid with a very large bat in power. If he is willing to get lots and lots people killed, to flush billions of dollars down the drain, and to impoverish the Iraqi people as a whole, just to get at this one person, this is Very Bad. That means he doesn't think with his head. You don't want somebody like him in power.
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That does depend. Some people like those that think with their hearts first. It's a matter of preference.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 6, 2003, 01:53
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#34
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
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A war on Iraq would damage the world oil supply, not help it. That could do severe damage to our economy. Anyone who thinks this war is economically related is dead wrong...
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
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February 6, 2003, 01:54
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#35
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Batallón de San Patricio, United States of America
Posts: 3,696
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Hey paiktis you bring up a good point, I learned something new today.
Unfortunatley as a side effect of American consumer driven society, we are taught that the way to deal with problems is to consume.
We don't have that 2000+ year old Greek culture of spirituality to guide us. I'd say that's the #1 failing of the USA, is that many of us have become spiritually bankrupt. No amount of consumption can fill that void.
So the problem becomes when people don't know know how to look inward for stength, instead they look outward for some product or stimulation to fix them.
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln
Mis Novias
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February 6, 2003, 01:54
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#36
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: topeka, kansas,USA
Posts: 8,164
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Oil better be part of the picture, if we don't grab that oil to help pay for the war I'll be even more pissed. I want that oil! Damn right! And the oil should be used to pay off US manufacturers to help rebuild Iraq...
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February 6, 2003, 01:58
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#37
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Batallón de San Patricio, United States of America
Posts: 3,696
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Urban,
That can indeed be a problem. Especially with hotheads like Rice and Rumsfeld in the picture. Luckily Powell is there to temper Bush's gut directions and Rice is there to give clarity and Chaney is the one who actually formulates a plan out of it all behind the scenes.
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln
Mis Novias
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February 6, 2003, 02:01
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#38
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Local Time: 11:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
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And then Bush either vetos and approves Cheney's plan. If you've ever see them together, you know which one is boss... and it ain't Cheney .
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 6, 2003, 02:05
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#39
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Batallón de San Patricio, United States of America
Posts: 3,696
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My favorite line from Bush is still, "we're going to find out who did this, and we're going to kick their asses!"
USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln
Mis Novias
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February 6, 2003, 02:10
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#40
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Chieftain
Local Time: 16:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Dresden
Posts: 37
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Berzerker
[...]
And the oil should be used to pay off US manufacturers to help rebuild Iraq...
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Yes, it should, but this will never happen.
Unfortunately, no altruistic ideology stands behind this war, only the desire for money and power (IMHO).
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February 6, 2003, 02:29
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#41
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King
Local Time: 09:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: United States of America
Posts: 2,306
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UR:
I can take Iraq more seriously in its denials the moment it can come up with counterpoints that rely less on shrillness and more on substance. About the only part of Powell's presentation that still has me less than convinced is the part where he presented alleged evidence of al-Qaida links to Saddam Hussein.
As for sharing all the evidence U.S. intelligence (and other foreign agencies) has gathered, I'm split on it. On one hand, you have to consider that if you give it freely and it leaks, you can say goodbye to your sources — they'll either clam up or, um, "disappear." Yet if you don't share it, then others question you constantly. Personally, I think all the evidence could be shown to Hans Blix and ElBaradei (sp) w/o any risk of them leaking it. But I wouldn't share it with the rest of the inspectors. Those two would be enough.
On an unrelated note, has 'Poly been slower than molasses for anyone else? This page alone took 99 seconds to load and display, and I have a cable connection to the Internet.
Gatekeeper
__________________
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
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February 6, 2003, 03:14
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#42
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Pekka
Actually, I would love to see mr Powell running for presidency.. he has the worlds respect by his character alone, not just power and all that.
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He had the option once but he declined. Maybe he'll think about it again after Dubya loses the next election.
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February 6, 2003, 03:26
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#43
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King
Local Time: 09:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: United States of America
Posts: 2,306
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Powell, unfortunately, will *not* run for the presidency. He values his privacy and family life. Can't say I blame him ... heh, kind of reminds me of Cincinnatius (sp).
Gatekeeper
__________________
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
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February 6, 2003, 03:41
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#44
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Emperor
Local Time: 18:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Xrr ZRRRRRRR!!
Posts: 6,484
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That's too bad. I think he would make one hell of a president. Powell...
__________________
In da butt.
"Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
"God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.
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February 6, 2003, 03:48
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#45
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Warlord
Local Time: 07:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Evil Empire
Posts: 109
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No, Powell did not ruin his reputation. He did what he was expected to do. He was suppose to show why the Bush administration believes that Saddam has WoMD, and why they think he's hiding evidence from the inspectors among other things. He did that brilliantly. I admit that it's not enough to satisfy some of you. I really believe that some of you have smoked too much pot if you think that what Powell said was less than truthfull, or that he acted dishonestly.
__________________
"When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
"All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
"Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui
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February 6, 2003, 04:11
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#46
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King
Local Time: 08:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle Washington
Posts: 2,954
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i think powell was pressured into it, and thats sad.
and thats it duncan...we reefer madness crazed lefties think he was lying. i dont think he was lying at all. i just dont think we can go invade a nation for phantom reasons.
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"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
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February 6, 2003, 04:16
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#47
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
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"Phantom reasons" = lies, by another name. You're accusing him lying.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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February 6, 2003, 04:21
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#48
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Deity
Local Time: 09:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
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So explain to me this. Supposedly many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died due to sanctions. Those sanctions are in place due to Saddam not fully cooperating with terms of the last cease fire.
Now the US led by Bush wants to put an end to the charade of the 'peace' with Iraq. OK. Maybe 10,000 people get wasted and then the sanctions end. What is that compared to the hundreds of thousands of dead due to the 'peace'?
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February 6, 2003, 04:28
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#49
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King
Local Time: 08:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle Washington
Posts: 2,954
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im accusing the adminstration of lying and powell of being coerced into believing the lie.
__________________
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
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February 6, 2003, 04:31
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#50
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
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Since when has Powell shown himself to be coercible?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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February 6, 2003, 04:34
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#51
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Deity
Local Time: 09:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MRT144
im accusing the adminstration of lying and powell of being coerced into believing the lie.
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Glad you're there to cast your vote. Now what about the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis? What about them?
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February 6, 2003, 04:38
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#52
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: topeka, kansas,USA
Posts: 8,164
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Quote:
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Those sanctions are in place due to Saddam not fully cooperating with terms of the last cease fire.
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No, they are in place because the US said they would veto any attempt to lift the sanctions until the regime was changed. The UN resolution held out the promise that sanctions would be lifted if Iraq complied with inspections, but the US blew that out of the water AFTER the cease fire. So, even if Iraq complied, the sanctions would stay in place. Peace and compliance is not what the US wants, we want regime change...
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February 6, 2003, 04:43
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#53
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King
Local Time: 08:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle Washington
Posts: 2,954
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hmmm, americans killing iraqis through sanctions or americans kiling iraqis through warfare. neither is good, after the war what certainty is there? who will rise to power? will we try to force democracy on them? how much money and terrorsim will continue because of this?
the only certainty is that another generation of arabs will hate american "imperialism" and terrorism will not end because of this.
this is a personal vendetta the likes i have only seen from miriam.
__________________
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
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February 6, 2003, 04:46
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#54
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Deity
Local Time: 09:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
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hmm. I think it is the UN that has imposed sanctions. I don't recall the French or Germans out in full force against them. I do recall them being out against action that would end the sanctions... which would end up with fewer Iraqi casualties than the sanctions have produced.... if my information is correct.
Hmm. Who is right here?
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February 6, 2003, 04:53
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#55
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Deity
Local Time: 09:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Berzerker
The UN resolution held out the promise that sanctions would be lifted if Iraq complied with inspections,
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Which Saddam has never done.
Quote:
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but the US blew that out of the water AFTER the cease fire. So, even if Iraq complied, the sanctions would stay in place. Peace and compliance is not what the US wants, we want regime change...
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So, Clinton was after a regime change too? Seems a little ahead of his time.
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February 6, 2003, 05:23
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#56
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King
Local Time: 08:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle Washington
Posts: 2,954
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so youre saying explicitly killing people is better than providing incentives?
__________________
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
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February 6, 2003, 05:28
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#57
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: topeka, kansas,USA
Posts: 8,164
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Quote:
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Which Saddam has never done.
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Why should he? The sanctions wouldn't be lifted if he did comply. The US made it clear shortly after the Gulf War it would not comply with UN resolution 687 either.
Quote:
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So, Clinton was after a regime change too? Seems a little ahead of his time.
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He was, he never reversed Bush 1's policy that the US would veto any attempt to lift the sanctions even if Iraq complied. Think about it, UN resolution 687 said that the sanctions would be lifted if Iraq disarmed and complied with inspections. But the US, having the power to veto lifting the sanctions, said it would block lifting the sanctions - that was in itself a violation of the UN resolution. The whole point of the sanctions was to get Iraq to comply, buy if Iraqi compliance would do nothing to lift the sanctions, compliance was not our goal.
Another lie we are often told is that Iraq kicked the inspectors out in 1998. No, the inspectors were ordered out by Clinton prior to a bombing campaign. And according to Scott Ritter, the CIA was using the inspections to spy on Iraq and Saddam and that the Iraqis knew this was going on.
How about one more lie? The Saudis and the American people were told Iraq was massing troops on the Saudi border after it's successful invasion of Kuwait. The reason was to invade Saudi Arabia. Satellite photos were the "proof", but a few months after the Gulf War, it was discovered the satellite photos were phony - a lie to get the Saudis to let us "defend" them from a non-existent invasion. Why all the lies?
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February 6, 2003, 06:15
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#58
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Deity
Local Time: 01:49
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
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Posts: 12,273
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I saw tonight on TV that Powell used a Taliban terrorist group in North Eastern Iraq which I have mentioned on this forum as evidence of Saddam's links with terrorism.
First off, this group is operating in an area Saddam does not control (against the Kurds). Second, its supported by Iran. Third, its leader hates Saddam Hussein, is in exile in Holland and trying to overthrow him.
*shakes head* This information is in the public domain.
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February 6, 2003, 06:56
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#59
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
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Okay, I'll bite -- details, please.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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February 6, 2003, 09:20
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#60
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:49
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
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Hey! I can take a picture of my apartment complex and write "Chemical weapons plant on it" and present it as evidence!
What little respect I had for Powell is gone after that retarded presentation yesterday. He's just the Bush admin's token black guy.
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