Provoking War

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 7, 2003, 12:56

Provoking War[/B]

So, here's my problem:

I've become fairly adept, or least good ENOUGH, to win wars in the ancient and medival eras against one or two equally-powerful opponents. By the mid-medival era, or early industrial era at the latest, I'm ready to TAKE ON THE WORLD.

But I want to take it on one country at a time. "Divide and Conquer": that's the old rule. This means keeping my reputation at a respectable level, so that sympathetic nations will not join with my chosen victim at any one time and declare war on me.

This means I need to get others to declare war on me. But by the time I'm ready to begin my conquests, I'm generally a democracy, and more powerful than any of my opponents, both militarily and culturally.

None of them will, hence, declare war on me!

How to get them to do so? That's the question I pose in this thread. To be honest, I frankly have no opinion. I want all of you to give me some ideas.

I play Regent level, continents, 4 million years, 15 opponents, but this thread should, hopefully, address the "provoking war" question for players of any persuasion.

I'm currently playing as the Babylonians and have some Americans, Zulus, Persians and Ottomans I'd just LOVE to crush... but one at a time, please.

They ALWAYS give me a miniscule amount of money in tribute and ALWAYS withdraw their troops.

How can I get them to attack me, and bring "We Love the President Day" to all my cities before I crush them?

Looking forward to any and all ideas.

badman · February 7, 2003, 13:08

if you are worried about your reputation, just declare war during negotiations
make sure that you dont have any active deals with them and no units inside their territory

if you want to make sure that nobody will join an alliance against you, make everybody join an alliance with you

the only problem is, that the other civs might capture some cities that you were planning to conquer

joncnunn · February 7, 2003, 13:17

For future games, play at a higher level: The computer is more agressive at higher levels.

For the current game, build the CIA and plant spies.
If planting the spies by itself doesn't work, use the spies for a risky mission.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 7, 2003, 13:27

I have provoked wars by planting spies... this does not hurt your reputation?

And declaring war during negotiations does not hurt your reputation? Is this really true? Have I been living in a dreamworld?

That would pretty much bring this whole thread to a close, if this is true...

Stuie · February 7, 2003, 14:11

Declaring war on the diplomacy screen will not hurt your rep. Espionage triggered wars have some small impact to your rep, I believe, but not so much as just charging into the target Civ and brutalizing them prior to a declaration of war.

Go into the diplomacy screen for the target Civ and click on Active; if the only active deal is "Peace Treaty", you can click on it to renegotiate, and then click "Clear". Your advisor will ask if you're sure you want to go to war... click "Yes" and you have just "honorably" entered into a war with that Civ, no damage to your rep.

However, you may still want to prevoke your opponent into declaring war if you are a Democracy as this will delay the effects of war weariness. If you are the aggressor, war weariness will take effect sooner.

joncnunn · February 7, 2003, 14:21

Basically, under a Democracy / Republic, if the AI declares war, you seem to get a free pass from the peace activists until the nation you are at war with will talk to you.

This is in addition to the initally one less unhappy citizen when the AI declares war on you.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 7, 2003, 14:22

Ha ha... well, I think I blew my CURRENT game waiting too long, as now a Persian-Zulu-American alliance might overwhelm me...

But this will prove VERY valuable in the future.

Catt · February 7, 2003, 15:26

Don't forget that there is a difference between reputation and attitude. Aggressive but honorable warmongering can have very negative effects on AI attitudes, but your reputation can remain pure as the driven snow.

Catt

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 7, 2003, 15:28

Hmmm... interesting.

In anyone's opinion/experience, what is the maximum number of wars you can launch before the rest of the world decides to come calling?

badman · February 7, 2003, 15:39

oh i think i got you wrong when i wrote my first post, sorry

i think you can launch any number of fights

but civs that you have fought against before, are likely to remain furious with you for the rest of the game

sometimes, when i try to provoke a war, i demand so much tribute that there is no way that the AI will accept

if you keep clicking the "Accept or we will kill you!" button, they will became furious
unfortunately, they still won't attack usually

Catt · February 7, 2003, 15:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Hmmm... interesting.

In anyone's opinion/experience, what is the maximum number of wars you can launch before the rest of the world decides to come calling?

I'm not sure that there's any sense of a hard-coded limit. The AI's decisions on going to war are influenced by a number of factors -- including a randomness factor.

As to when the rest of the world will gang up on you? Given enough time, even a long-time friend and trading partner can be bribed into an alliance against you by a richer foe willing to spend for the alliance. The only sure way I've found to ensure that Civ B won't join in a war against you with Civ A is to be the first to bribe Civ B to join your side against Civ A. If you are willing to war for long periods of time, and you refuse to bring Civ B into the fight on the side of the "good guys" it is likely that Civ B will be enticed into the fight on the side of the "bad guys."

(BTW - had something happen to me a few games back that I have never seen before. Playing PTW 1.14f, standard map, 8 civs, all random, I drew Carthage. Was at war with Rome and Greece (both far away) very early, after Rome demanded, I declined, Rome declared and then brought in Greece. I never saw a Greek unit and saw only a few Roman archers. As I contemplated making peace with Rome, Egypt, my neighbor, demanded and then declared, just as I was gearing my forces for an assualt south into Egypt. I made peace with Rome, and the very next turn bribed Rome into an alliance against Egypt -- I figured (1) I want to keep this to a one-front war so as to take Egypt quickly; and (2) no sense in allowing Egypt to bribe Rome into the fight against me -- I suspected that Rome's troops were actually getting close to my borders after spending 20 or 30 turns of the previous war slowly marching there before I bought peace (some parts through Egypt, which only made my alliance all the more attractive

). So, fickle Rome, the aggressor and enemy of Carthage is easily purchased into a fight against Egypt. Then, about 8 tuns into our alliance, I get a pop-up saying "Rome and Egypt have signed a peace treaty" and I curse to myself about the lying, dishonorable Romans! Only 8 turns in our alliance, and from the map I could see no evidence of any territorial gains by either side! I click through the pop-up and get a second pop-up - "Rome and Egypt have signed a military alliance against us"

Rome breaks an alliance with me after only about 8 turns, only to strike a second alliance against it's first alliance partner immediately following peace. Let's just say that the Romans were not considered trustworthy partners for the remainder of the game

.

Catt

joncnunn · February 7, 2003, 16:40

Yes, when I sign MAs it is not because I actually want the help of the AI I'm signing the MA with but just so that player is locked in on my side of the deal. If I've discovered Nationalism, I'll sign an MPP instead an ensure it activeats. This is somewhat safer because if your MPP signs a peace treaty you just arrange for the MPP to trigure again.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 8, 2003, 09:55

Well, I'm now engaged in my dirty war against the Persians, Americans, and Zulus, mobilized... no one else has declared war on me but there's been a definite attitude shift... nothing I can't buy off, though.

So, I've got another question now: how to make peace? The Persians are my only true foes... I've taken the Zulu capital and another major city, and 4 American cities, leaving them with no iron or saltpeter. Still, they're bogging down my troops and screwing up my infrastructure. Plus, I can't buy temples during wartime.

Is there a "garunteed" way for me to make peace with them, so as to better focus on my scientific and industrious friends to the South?

Any thoughts?

Chemical Ollie · February 9, 2003, 06:56

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
Basically, under a Democracy / Republic, if the AI declares war, you seem to get a free pass from the peace activists until the nation you are at war with will talk to you.

This is in addition to the initally one less unhappy citizen when the AI declares war on you.

I'm not sure if this is true. I remember games where I never started a war myself and still got riots despite that the opponents refused to talk.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 10, 2003, 11:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
I'm not sure if this is true. I remember games where I never started a war myself and still got riots despite that the opponents refused to talk.

This happened to me in my game... however, it was the result of the Persians declaring war on me after I demanded that they withdraw their troops.

I knew this would provoke war, so I did it. However, I didn't get any "we love the President day" and after 3 turns I got major riots.

Why did this happen? Is it because I declared war on the Persians before? I declared war "honourably," made peace eventually, demanded they withdraw their troops, and they declared war on me... that was the sequence.

If you demand someone withdraw their troops and they declare war on you, is that different than if they attack you out of the blue, happiness-wise? Is there a distinction between former combatants and new combatants? Anyone know?

Stuie · February 10, 2003, 12:40

You get some benefit when the AI declares the war (as opposed to you being the aggressor), but this still won't be enough to counter war weariness if you have lots of foreign troops on your soil, massive losses suffered by your troops, or you're losing cities.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 10, 2003, 13:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuie
You get some benefit when the AI declares the war (as opposed to you being the aggressor), but this still won't be enough to counter war weariness if you have lots of foreign troops on your soil, massive losses suffered by your troops, or you're losing cities.

So, if you lose troops in the field or defending newly-captured cities, this contributes to unhappiness?

That would explain a lot, because man, it's been a real meat grinder "getting my war on," and my instructure development is way behind for where it normally is at this time in my game.

Why my cavalry have turned out to be so ineffective as opposed to their normal use is a topic for another thread, I suppose, unless unhappiness effects the ability of your troops?

Stuie · February 10, 2003, 14:07

Even capturing a city, and then losing it right away will effect war weariness. This happened to me once; I was fighting a decent war, making steady gains, my population was happy. Then I captured a city but was only able to get one unit (the one that won) in to garrison the city. Needless to say I lost that city immediately to an enemy counter offensive, and then half my empire went into disorder. Bah.

I've found that by having as many luxuries as possible and marketplaces in all your cities, as long as you make steady gains during the course of a war there never should be an issue with war weariness (this on Monarch level; your mileage may vary at Emporer or Diety).

Also, war weariness/unhappiness should not have any effect on the fighting capability of your military. Sounds like you got unlucky with your cavalry?

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 10, 2003, 14:13

I would say so. My Cavalry, though all veterans, consistently have lost out to medival infantry, impis, etc. It's humiliating. I don't understand it at all. They can't seem to take out other cavalry on plains, etc.

But I suppose that's not the point of the thread. Anyone else have any enemy attitude/reputation stories or insights they'd care to share?