Why doesn't the average American understand the concept of haggling?

[Buck Birdseed]

From what I can see in this thread, most people will just buy stuff, willy-nilly, without caring about principles like "lowest price". We don't have any concious buyers here...

[Oerdin]

That's because most of the people on this site are children. Once they live on their own, paying rent, making a car payment, saving to buy furniture, budgeting to afford that vacation the girlfriend has been bugging them about, trying to keep the frig stocked, their clothes in fashion, the utilities paid, and a million other things then they will learn the value of a dollar.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Buck: You forgetting about competetion. In most countries where haggling doesn't occur the competetion amoung retailers is the most ferrious. Since most people buy most of their goods from the store with the lowest price the other two dozen stores are forced to lower their prices or go out of business.

In an economy with sufficient competetion the profit margins will naturally stay small due to consumers preferentially buying from stores with lower prices.

OMG, another one who thinks that competition makes a difference.

Say I want to buy a TV. I can go to every damn store in town and haggle with every damn salesman to try to get the lowest price. Should I get the price that I would get if there were perfect competition? NO! Because there is not perfect competition. The reason is that most people just go to the closest store and buy there. In order for a prefect market to exist time and space would not exist. Since time and space do exist you are silly for claiming that competition is significant.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
From what I can see in this thread, most people will just buy stuff, willy-nilly, without caring about principles like "lowest price".

Personally I would rather have the real price listed on the things I'm likely to buy/use on a vacation rather than go through a meaningless and time consuming kabuki dance designed to get to the real price of the item.

[Oerdin]

Most of the people I know don't want to bother haggling. Instead they shop around and buy only from the store with the lowest price. This rewards the guy who originally advertised the low price and insures more people will get a better price then if you had haggled alone with joe blow retailer.

It's easier and you get low prices more often then with haggling.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
From what I can see in this thread, most people will just buy stuff, willy-nilly, without caring about principles like "lowest price". We don't have any concious buyers here...

What people do at home and what they do on vacation are two different things altogether. People here will clip coupons, watch for sales and shop around for the best deal they can so that they can save some money for their vacation.

Once they're out enjoying themselves, money is not the issue. Everything they have is over and above what they need in order to survive, a surplus. So they indulge themselves while they can, and damn the expense. If they felt they couldn't afford it, they wouldn't have gone on a vacation in the first place.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The reason is that most people just go to the closest store and buy there.

Yes, much lower oppertunity cost.

And you are DEFINETLY underplaying competition. Many people DO look around for the cheapest price on high value items. In those cases, competition matters a Hell of a lot.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

The reason is that most people just go to the closest store and buy there.

Yes, much lower oppertunity cost.

And you are DEFINETLY underplaying competition. Many people DO look around for the cheapest price on high value items. In those cases, competition matters a Hell of a lot.

Houses and cars yes. Actually, when I bought my car I noticed that there were only 2 Honda dealers in town. Yes, I went to both, but not much competition there is there.

Houses are really the same way. Not many houses are much alike. People are very particular about the house they buy. You are unlikely to find two houses that you really want and choose the one that is cheaper. Instead, you have a price range and you hope to find a house in that price range that you really like.

[Oerdin]

You need to buy your automobiles in a larger city then. When I bought my Ford I shopped around at all 16 of the Ford dealers in San Diego. Actually the internet speed up the comparison shopping thing because I got to send an e-mail to all 16 telling them exactly what color, model, and options I wanted and then they got one chance to send me the lowest possible price they'd sell it at. I only went in to the dealer who quoted me the lowest price and I ended up buying my car for (the consumer reports listed) dealer cost plus 1%. That was thousands below sticker price and I even got low financing.

Make competetion your friend and you'll save alot of money even if you don't feel like haggling.

[MOBIUS]

People seem to think it takes a long time to haggle - it takes about 10 seconds to reduce the price by say 25%. Depending on the item, I can reduce it by > 50% within a minute.

Bigger things take longer - but then the savings are larger.

Seriously though, they seem to double the starting price if they think you're american - are you guys seriously happy to be charged twice as much for an item than say an Aussie just because of your nationality!!?

That if I and one of you stood within earshot of each other and the said '200' to me and '400' to you, that you would fork out the 400? You would demand the same price!

I cannot believe you guys are prepared to be so pig headed that you're prepared to waste so much money frivolously! You guys must be so loaded that when you go on holiday you don't even need to budget...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Firstly, the act of haggling should be an enjoyable discourse, you are acting as a local more.

It is fun the first few times, but not when it is the 50th time.

Originally posted by MOBIUS
It shouldn't even take too much time and the vendor will actually respect you more for it - in Thailand for example, people have been known to be insulted when offered a large tip.

Possibly, but it is not same thing.

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Secondly, I find the argument that we should pay them hugely inflated prices because they're 'poor' highly patronising - they don't want your pity, they want your business. If you pay hugely inflated prices you are merely showing your ignorance/indifference to their way of life.

You miss the point entirely. I wasn't saying paying them hugely inflated prices is a good thing.

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Indeed, if you want to be truly charitable, you should haggle as much as possible because ultimately you will help more people - if I can buy something for a quarter of the price of an American (are you sure you don't care about being ripped off???), it means I can buy four times as many goods - thus helping four times as many people!

You are still spending X amount of money. How does this work?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
I think the sentiments expressed by many in this thread are as good a proof as any why straight Capitalism doesn't work outside the local, small-group, high-information area, much like Communism. It's this kind of "let's not haggle, let's hunt for the best price, let's just go in and buy something for the hell of it!" attitude that leads to cartelling, to inefficiency, to "good enough" attitudes and ultimately to loadsa waste and overpriced goods.

Interesting spin, but completely wrong. In the third world countries we predominantly have small handicraft shops and the like. This is not real capitalism. You have to remember capitalism starts where the people who have money no longer need to be actually productive themselves - they don't have to do work, their money makes money for them.

It is impossible to have large cartels and monopolies until industrialisation, where corporations can take advantage of economy of scale, and where captial needs to be highly concentrated.

[mindseye]

As an American living in Asia, I have thought quite a bit about this.

I think many of the reasons cited act together, but perhaps the most significant are:

(1) Culturally, North Americans consider haggling to be less than respectable behavior, and find it very hard to stoop to it, even if locals appear to accept it. For many, this cultural inhibition is quite strong. Tourists must make many such decisions of cultural adaption during the short time they are abroad. For many North Americans, haggling is a disagreeable thing, it feels cheap and petty. It should not be surprising that many will avoid disagreeable things while on vacation. This should not be hard to understand, but I guess it's less fun than cheap American-bashing.

(2) Many North American tourists traveling in developing nations feel that the amount in question is worth so vastly much more to the local that they just write it off as a small, personal donation to a good cause. When they realize that their US/Can $20 has five times the buying power to the local, they don't mind "sharing the wealth" a little while they are having fun. It's the same as people leaving large tips while vacationing back home. I guess your anti-Americanism prevents you from considering that North American tourists just might be relatively generous people - made more keenly aware, when traveling in the developing world, of their good luck in place of birth.

Haggling done properly is a good natured affair.

I guess it's different when you actually live with it and the novelty wears off. Like you, I pay the price for it - locals sometimes think I am a tourist, rather than a resident, or just assume that since I have a white face I must be rich. It can quickly become little more than a tiresome ritual - thank heavens it's fast vanishing in urban China.

We both put the same amount of money into the economy.

How do you know North Americans are not spending a larger total sum per vacation?

Specially when I said that I'm not looking to save money, but make it go further...

But since you take away more goods for the same money, don't they make less profit from you?

where tourists should be made to pay over the odds in a form of enforced 'charity'...

Well, perhaps most North Americans traveling on holiday are a little less averse to charity than you are. I don't want to portray them as saints of generosity, just folks who don’t mind spending a bit while having fun, especially if they already feel they are getting something cheaply anyway.

If you feel uncomfortable about engaging in local customs, or eating the local food etc, perhaps you shouldn't visiting that country...

Well, everyone must draw the line somewhere. Did you accept local Balinese hygenic customs? Sure, some travelers are hopelessly provincial in dealing with local customs, however maybe they're the ones who benefit most from international travel.

I am able to spread my wealth evenly, whereas with American buying patterns, only a few lucky vendors make a profit.

Or maybe you help keep a large number in near-subsistance, whereas the Americans make a difference in someone's life for a while.

Why travel if the first thing you do when you touch down is seek comfort in a Dunkin' Donuts?
(...)
Only ignorant morons waste their money knowingly
(...)
be so pig headed that you're prepared to waste so much money frivolously

(my emphasis)
I bet those local Balinese would disagree with you on the definition of "waste"! Cheap insults like these detract quite a bit from your credibility. Maybe Canadians and Americans are less averse than you to throwing a few bucks around while they are having fun, especially of those bucks should happen to land in the hands of someone for whom they have much more value. Certainly, I doubt many tourist vendors share your complaint!

For someone who makes quite a bit of hay about respecting cultures, you sure seem to have a very hard time respecting that of North Americans. I guess that might conflict with the simple, ugly stereotypes you so enjoy embracing.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Actually, when I bought my car I noticed that there were only 2 Honda dealers in town. Yes, I went to both, but not much competition there is there.

Listen to Oerdin, or my parents. I tell you they are the KINGS of shopping around, and that has passed to me a bit. I always look at many different places for the best price (though I admit at times I'm spontaneous ). It is fairly easy to find a better price than the first place you look.

[DanS]

It's the same as people leaving large tips while vacationing back home.

Or not vacationing. I'm not averse to tipping very well, or tipping disproportionate to what is considered the norm.

[mindseye]

I'm not averse to tipping very well, or tipping disproportionate to what is considered the norm.

Gee, by Mobius' standards, that makes you ... "a pig-headed, ignorant moron"! And here you thought you were being generous to a working stiff! You must be an American or something.

[DanS]

Well, I took it as a compliment, coming from him.

[cavebear]

Haggling seems to be a form of entertainment.

Economically, we have better things to do. Name your price and be done with it!

[darcy]

It seems that the average American believes the myth that something like a "fair price" exists, although confusing "average price" with "fair price" is a dangerous thing to do in a country with dysfunctional anti-trust laws.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


People seem to think it takes a long time to haggle - it takes about 10 seconds to reduce the price by say 25%. Depending on the item, I can reduce it by > 50% within a minute.

Bigger things take longer - but then the savings are larger.

Seriously though, they seem to double the starting price if they think you're american - are you guys seriously happy to be charged twice as much for an item than say an Aussie just because of your nationality!!?

That if I and one of you stood within earshot of each other and the said '200' to me and '400' to you, that you would fork out the 400? You would demand the same price!

I cannot believe you guys are prepared to be so pig headed that you're prepared to waste so much money frivolously! You guys must be so loaded that when you go on holiday you don't even need to budget...

gah

Is this guy still trying to make a point or something?

who gives a **** if someone haggles or not? God damn... give me a break... it would be tough for me to think of a more wuss ass arguement...

[wussass discussion]
"Noooo! Barbie is supposed to have blonde hair, not red hair!"
"But this isnt barbie, this is Barbette-"
"But i wanna barbie!"
[\wussass discussion]

Kman

NOTE: its 7:30 AM here... ive stayed up all night. im cranky and irritable, and apologize for my complete lack of patience and tolerance.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by mindseye
As an American living in Asia, I have thought quite a bit about this.

I think many of the reasons cited act together, but perhaps the most significant are:

(1) Culturally, North Americans consider haggling to be less than respectable behavior, and find it very hard to stoop to it, even if locals appear to accept it. For many, this cultural inhibition is quite strong. Tourists must make many such decisions of cultural adaption during the short time they are abroad. For many North Americans, haggling is a disagreeable thing, it feels cheap and petty. It should not be surprising that many will avoid disagreeable things while on vacation. This should not be hard to understand, but I guess it's less fun than cheap American-bashing.

A good point, fine. Because of this pattern an american (or Japanese) tourist will automatically be targetted to pay say twice as much as say a tourist from another country. If you're happy at being taken advantage of because of your nationality, who am I to argue...

(2) Many North American tourists traveling in developing nations feel that the amount in question is worth so vastly much more to the local that they just write it off as a small, personal donation to a good cause. When they realize that their US/Can $20 has five times the buying power to the local, they don't mind "sharing the wealth" a little while they are having fun. It's the same as people leaving large tips while vacationing back home. I guess your anti-Americanism prevents you from considering that North American tourists just might be relatively generous people - made more keenly aware, when traveling in the developing world, of their good luck in place of birth.

Not anti-americanism, just amazement that you guys are happy to be ripped off. The american guy at the hotel I stayed at certainly wasn't happy to discover that I was paying US$60 a night less than him for my room. You should have heard the argument he had with the 'poverty stricken' luxury hotel we were staying at...

Quote:

We both put the same amount of money into the economy.

How do you know North Americans are not spending a larger total sum per vacation?

Maybe they are, but then I was hardly slumming it when I was over there...

Quote:

Specially when I said that I'm not looking to save money, but make it go further...

But since you take away more goods for the same money, don't they make less profit from you?

More goods produced by more people, selling to more sellers - from me between 2-4 times as many people get a piece of a similar sized pie. It's only the cost for the raw materials that is higher.

Quote:

where tourists should be made to pay over the odds in a form of enforced 'charity'...

Well, perhaps most North Americans traveling on holiday are a little less averse to charity than you are. I don't want to portray them as saints of generosity, just folks who don’t mind spending a bit while having fun, especially if they already feel they are getting something cheaply anyway.

I'm not averse to charity in the slightest, I just find myself buying a few extra things that I wouldn't normally (at fair prices). Charity has to be earned.

Quote:

If you feel uncomfortable about engaging in local customs, or eating the local food etc, perhaps you shouldn't visiting that country...

Well, everyone must draw the line somewhere. Did you accept local Balinese hygenic customs? Sure, some travelers are hopelessly provincial in dealing with local customs, however maybe they're the ones who benefit most from international travel.

Let's just say that I had my eyes opened on more than one occasion...

If you mean the drop toilets, I'm used to them from much of Southern Europe - they're actually quite good for when I had a dose of diarrhoea from eating to many spicy soups! I find the squatting position seems to improve your ability to evacuate your bowels...

Quote:

I am able to spread my wealth evenly, whereas with American buying patterns, only a few lucky vendors make a profit.

Or maybe you help keep a large number in near-subsistance, whereas the Americans make a difference in someone's life for a while.

That's one way of looking at it, but then I would prefer a fairly guaranteed source of income rather than hoping that I might strike it lucky one day...

Quote:

Why travel if the first thing you do when you touch down is seek comfort in a Dunkin' Donuts? (...) Only ignorant morons waste their money knowingly (...) be so pig headed that you're prepared to waste so much money frivolously

(my emphasis)
I bet those local Balinese would disagree with you on the definition of "waste"! Cheap insults like these detract quite a bit from your credibility. Maybe Canadians and Americans are less averse than you to throwing a few bucks around while they are having fun, especially of those bucks should happen to land in the hands of someone for whom they have much more value. Certainly, I doubt many tourist vendors share your complaint!

My criticism was levelled at those that have answered by saying that even if they knew they were being ripped off (as opposed to paying tourist prices) solely because of their nationality, they wouldn't care - they would not act that way in the US, so why act that way on holiday?

For someone who makes quite a bit of hay about respecting cultures, you sure seem to have a very hard time respecting that of North Americans. I guess that might conflict with the simple, ugly stereotypes you so enjoy embracing.

I am sorry, but willfully paying above the odds because you are targetted as an american seems stupid to me any way you cut it, besides as part of my trip I got to travel round the US for three months - I'm not working on stereotypes...

My point is not that americans are happy to pay above the odds, because from my experience, they're not - they generally tend to raise hell when they find out just how badly they're shafted...

My point is that they don't know they're being shafted - or at least not quite so badly as they actually are!

The only other country that comes as close to getting taken for a ride are the Japanese. If you want to avoid be fleeced, pretend you're Italian, or even better an Aussie or a Kiwi. Apparently the street vendors close early when they see a group of Antipodean Women approaching...

So, my advice to everyone here is start practising your Ocker accent...

Actually, something that has occurred to me is that americans and Japanese general get hardly any holiday time compared to the rest of the World - perhaps because you only get the opportunity to have just one decent holiday a year that's why you spend up large?

DanS: In the US you have to tip disproportionately highly to show appreciation, because tipping is the norm and to leave the normal amount would not show your appreciation - so that is hardly an exceptional thing to do IMO. I did it on a very regular basis...

[Willem]

Originally posted by Kramerman

NOTE: its 7:30 AM here... ive stayed up all night. im cranky and irritable, and apologize for my complete lack of patience and tolerance.

Don't apologize, it's perfectly understandable. It's just a pathetic attempt at American bashing. And not a very effective one since Canadians do the same thing. I guess we just have more important things to do with our time.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Willem
Don't apologize, it's perfectly understandable. It's just a pathetic attempt at American bashing. And not a very effective one since Canadians do the same thing. I guess we just have more important things to do with our time.

Most Canadians that I've met in Asia haggle.

Mobius is not being anti-American. He noticed that Americans do not haggle, something confirmed by the Americans polys. He can't understand why people don't bargain for the best price (neither can I). There's nothing anti-American and he ain't bashing anyone except the fools who are soon parted from their money.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Most Canadians that I've met in Asia haggle.

Mobius is not being anti-American. He noticed that Americans do not haggle, something confirmed by the Americans polys. He can't understand why people don't bargain for the best price (neither can I). There's nothing anti-American and he ain't bashing anyone except the fools who are soon parted from their money.

Oh who cares!

[Urban Ranger]

I don't haggle either. I think it's an ugly custom. Fortunately, there's no need to do it here.

[Tingkai]

You don't haggle in HK? I do it all the time.

[Urban Ranger]

For what? Not when you buy food or clothing. You can't haggle when you take the MTR or a bus. Can't haggle when you dine out.

The only time that may be useful is when dealing with high cost items, say cars, flats, plama TV, etc.

[Ironikinit]

Haven't read the whole thread, but judging from the last few posts it seems that folks have said that Americans don't haggle. Here's my 2 cents.

I used to work at a lumber yard. Haggling was constant. I used to wonder why it was considered acceptable to haggle over building materials when nobody ever seemed to try to talk the seller down at, say, a drugstore or department store.

Haggling is accepted at American garage sales, too. I recommend it.

Travel guides written for Americans sometime tell the reader to try haggling, especially for things like souvineers sold on the street or bazaar/market items.

That said, haggling isn't part of the usual business for Americans. While I will sometimes try to haggle on certain items (notably jewelry and clothing) by asking for the "sale price", it wouldn't cross my mind, usually, to try to talk the seller down on things like hotel rooms or a restaurant bill.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
For what? Not when you buy food or clothing. You can't haggle when you take the MTR or a bus. Can't haggle when you dine out.

The only time that may be useful is when dealing with high cost items, say cars, flats, plama TV, etc.

I haggle all the time in Lane Crawford. Just kidding.

What about for computer equipment and games? Or what about in street or wet markets?

Edit:
A couple of weeks ago I bought two Gameboy games for my nephew. The seller said the price was HK$200 total. I asked for a discount and he sold it to me for HK $180 (meanwhile ToyRus was selling them for about $350 each).

When I buy stuff from small pharmacies, I often ask for a get a discount.

My general rule in HK is that if it doesn't have a specific pricetag then I haggle.

[DanS]

You guys must be so loaded that when you go on holiday you don't even need to budget...

There's an element of truth to that. More like most of us work a lot and get little vacation. So budgeting for vacation is less of a concern. Because of this, much of the delta is in the airline ticket, not the hotel and trinkets cost. Having a guaranteed room is much more valuable to an American than somebody else, because our time is more valuable to us.