France, Germany present alternative to war - Page 4

Lancer · February 9, 2003, 17:24

Except for the loss of eastern europe for 70 years we managed to keep the Sovs behind their borders. If that meant we had to get in bed with some dogs, well...woof.

Spiffor · February 9, 2003, 17:29

Lancer:
Glad you hate me because I'm a ****ing French

I believe you don't hate the ****ing French, but that you hate the ****ing French policy, at least I hope : you don't sound like a xenophobic cretin to me. And btw, you don't have to eat Frog legs to be a frog

(I've never eaten frog legs or snails in my entire life).
Please stop being carried away. It makes you look bad, which you don't deserve IMHO.

Now for the quote answer :

Quote:

In a week or two the US is going in to Iraq to defeat a dictator. This is nothing new for the US

As Sava pointed out, and DanS or DetroitDave accepted, removing dictators is something new for the US. There are reasons why the US realistically supported dictators in the past, I think all unbiased people here will agree on this one.

Quote:

excepting that such dictators are usually in the heart of europe, and we're usually bailing out the ****ing French.

Here is the "we saved your ass 60 years ago" rhetoric again. Come on Lancer, you can do better than these arguments for 12 years old. It's not like the French will follow the US for the whole eternity because of their participation in both World Wars. By the same token, the US will not follow France eternally because of La Fayette and the Statue of Liberty, isn't it ?

(the later statement wasn't an argument in any way ; it just intended to show how laughable the "we saved your ass" rethoric is misplaced here)

Quote:

Along side us as we go in will be our good and loyal friends.

I wonder why there is such a double-standard here. France and Germany are pro-peace because of realpolitical concerns, but Spain, Italy and alikes would participate out of such noble feelings as friendship ? Please get real : everybody is trying to promote his Nation's interests here. There are no good or evil countries in this diplomatic waltz, there are only egoistic countries.

Quote:

Because we won't forget those who betray our friendship. Remember in the future when you ask 'why?'. When you, once again come crying for help. This is why, that we don't forget.

Amen. No matter how Americans are pissed with France and Germany, the US will come to help if their interests dictate it.
BTW, France has now a nuclear arsenal, and the first or second military in Europe (similar to UK's). Europe is slowly but surely heading towards a unification of its military and diplomacy. So I doubt we'll call you to help in the forseeable future, like you won't call us to help in the forseeable future.

But on a more general note : I wonder why you get so much carried away because foreign countries disagree with your countries' policy. Do you think foreign sovereign countries should do as the US would like all the time ?

Lord Merciless · February 9, 2003, 17:33

Other Europeans may not like the Franco-German dominance at all. First, there were historical grudges among themselves. Second, a master far away is easier to deal with than a master next door.

DanS · February 9, 2003, 17:35

removing dictators is something new for the US

Well, I wouldn't say something new at all. Rather, a mixed bag. Fascist Italy, France, and Germany were all put down in part by American force of arms. Eastern European dictatorships were deterred by the American military, and ratfvcked in different ways by the US.

Really, Europe is Exhibit A for how the US would like the world to be. And we didn't get there by being pacifist. Rather, we got there by relying on steel, judicious use of raw power, and reliance on democracy.

There's no reason why we can't replicate this in other places.

Lancer · February 9, 2003, 17:36

No, the French people suck. You visit France and they treat you like dirt.

Of course that's a generalization, I'm sure there are nice French people too, and maybe you're one of them. However I wouldn't go digging through a pile of garbage looking for a good apple, hence, the French people suck.

Sava · February 9, 2003, 17:38

Unfortunately, nothing like Fascist Italy, France, and Germany exist anymore... nothing to justify this massive military budget... nobody of importance to bomb anymore...

So the US creates dictatorships, sponsors existing ones, then attacks them. And sometimes, bomb's other countries just for the hell of it.

Lord Merciless · February 9, 2003, 17:38

I agree that the US priorities during the Cold War were not about toppling dictatorships, but about stopping the Communism. We basically grabbed every ally we could fine as they were against the Communism. Of course, such politics would lead to trouble later on once the Communism was defeated.

Spiffor · February 9, 2003, 17:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
No, the French people suck.

Well, I guess I'll have to call you a xenophobic cretin then

DanS · February 9, 2003, 17:40

Lancer? Xenophobic?

Spiffor · February 9, 2003, 17:43

Disliking a whole population due to its nationality fits my description of xenophoby, even when the guy acknowledges there are some rare decent people in this population. Had he said that about Brazilians or Zimbabweans or whatever, I'd have called him xenophobic as well.

Lancer · February 9, 2003, 17:43

Spiffor, I just told you that your whole country sucks, and is a pile of garbage. You go ahead and call me what you like.

BeBro · February 9, 2003, 17:45

Phew, you said nothing ´bout Germans

Spiffor · February 9, 2003, 17:47

Lancer :
If you say my country sucks, I have no problems with it, for it is mostly true

If you say the people of this country suck, THAT I have a problem with.

Willem · February 9, 2003, 17:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
If you scare Kim, he's going to launch all his sh1t... mutually assured destruction... HELLO!!!??

But pro-war people don't bother to think ahead anyways

What ****? All the experts I've heard say that if he's lucky, he might have enough plutonium right now for two bombs, with something like 3 more every six months. He's not even close to being a serious nuclear threat. I doubt if he even has any rockets that will reach the US, nor does it sound like he has much of submarine fleet.

Spiffor · February 9, 2003, 17:59

I'm fairly sure Korean nukes can reach Seoul or Tokyo. It may be enough to plunge the world into chaos IMHO.

Lancer · February 9, 2003, 18:01

I've known alot of nice Germans and had very good times in Germany, particularly at the border...back when it was a border. Very friendly people. I'm better than half German btw. From Zurich.

I understand now why you occasionally invade the French...

Why you are in bed w/ them now...yuck...

Willem · February 9, 2003, 18:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
Russia and China eh?

*Adds them to the list of countries that don't get Iraqi contracts*

No skin off Russia's nose at any rate, they have plenty of their own oil. That threat only goes so far in today's world.

Willem · February 9, 2003, 18:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
Apparently Powell is a little ticked off that the frogs and krauts didn't even bother to tell him they were going to put a proposal forward. Wasn't it the axis of weasel who was whining last year that the U.S. shouldn't do anything without at least informing htem first?

I guess what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

Well Rumsfeld hasn't exactly created a climate that's been conducive to discussion either.

Oerdin · February 9, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
As Sava pointed out, and DanS or DetroitDave accepted, removing dictators is something new for the US.

Heck, we've been knocking off (and setting up) dictators in Latin America for the better part of two hundred years. It is a long and glorious American tradition

BeBro · February 9, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
I've known alot of nice Germans and had very good times in Germany, particularly at the border...back when it was a border. Very friendly people. I'm better than half German btw. From Zurich.

I understand now why you occasionally invade the French...

Why you are in bed w/ them now...yuck...

To be honest, this whole EU thingie is our evil plot to get Germans into Paris without firing a single bullet...

Willem · February 9, 2003, 18:08

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS

When did we fail to consult?

Right when Bush announced that it ws time for a regime change. Maybe a little diplomacy was in order then, instead of acting like a typical cowboy?

Lancer · February 9, 2003, 18:09

Go in and win BeBro.

Boris Godunov · February 9, 2003, 18:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
No, the French people suck. You visit France and they treat you like dirt.

Of course that's a generalization, I'm sure there are nice French people too, and maybe you're one of them. However I wouldn't go digging through a pile of garbage looking for a good apple, hence, the French people suck.

Oh shut up. French-bashing is lame and passe now. I'll admit to taking some pot shots at the French, but I draw a line at real xenophobia. I was treated very well in France, with few exceptions. Certainly not any different than how the British treated me.

France is allowed to disagree with U.S. policy, even vehemently if it wants. The people dismissing that difference of opinion as mere automated nay-saying or some sort of cynical bid out of self interest make me mad. I've yet to see anyone explain rationally why the French should be expected to toe the line here.

As for the Germans, I am quite glad for their position. I like to see it as a fundamental shift in national character that they are so adamantly pacifist. It's a sign that maybe, 60 years from now, Americans won't be so warmongering.

Lancer · February 9, 2003, 18:17

Frenchies still suck.

Willem · February 9, 2003, 18:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'm fairly sure Korean nukes can reach Seoul or Tokyo. It may be enough to plunge the world into chaos IMHO.

Chaos yes, but his statement was mutually assured destruction. And the backlash of NK bombing either of those places because of a dispute it's having with the US would leave it completely isolated, leaving the US free to do what it wanted to. It would be assured suicide, something that politicians generally don't engage in.

Lefty Scaevola · February 10, 2003, 17:29

Allah (or mayber Jove) has sent an omen to Germany, its pacifists will be slaughtered by predetary enemies.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...d_nm/ravens_dc

DanS · February 10, 2003, 18:13

Right when Bush announced that it ws time for a regime change. Maybe a little diplomacy was in order then, instead of acting like a typical cowboy?

Regime change was the stated policy of the Clinton Administration from 1998 forward, and written into law by Congress.

The Viceroy · February 10, 2003, 18:28

Ive seen this dispute comming for some years now, the French and Germans have been pushing for a credible alternative to American power, they feel they have started to turn the tide, with the recent strength of the Euro, and the soon to be enlarged union, however, what they may have started to acheive Economically, they fall woefully behind with Military, and hence the overtures towards Russia.

As for NATO, I don't think the Germans and French are ready to throw the towel in yet, but they are certainly sending the signal to Washington & London, that there are alternatives.

Personally, I think France & Germany are risking a lot here, this kind of posturing, only increases the hostile feelings many here in the UK have towards the EU, at its heart, I believe if given the choice, the UK would prefer a union with the US/Canada/Australia than the EU, and im suprised that the conservatives haven't yet used this as an alternative vision .. who knows ??

I still want the UK to join the Euro, and be at the heart of Europe, but a europe that feels it need not posture against our allies, otherwise, I would rather the UK pulled out altogether.

Lancer · February 10, 2003, 18:34

I have always advocated a US/UK reunion. It's a pleasure to see someone else bring it up as a possibility.

The Viceroy · February 10, 2003, 18:44

Lancer,

It amazing that nobody gives it serious consideration, ive heard a few Tory back benchers bring it up once or twice, but get laughed at, without any serious debate. I have also heard US politicians say it couldn't happen, without any serious debate.

One of the reasons many people here feel the EU is inevitable, is because there is no serious alternative .. nobody else has organised (or even attempted to).

I do wonder if it was seriously on the table, how many people would go for it .. Im betting more than would for Europe.