Favorite Units

[Walt]

Sure, these are neat . . .

. . . and fairly obvious, once the right technology is discovered. That's the problem, though. They all require technologies one normally discovers once one has already, essentially, won. By then it's usually "all over but the shootin'."

I've only been reading these forums for a short time, but I have seen some beautiful ideas here regarding units: the armoring of probes and the upgrading of supply crawlers/rovers for fast-building SP's (the latter, by the way, is now 'Verboten' in every game I play, whether it be SP or MP. Vel's ideas on upgrade-armoring non-combat units to stall invasions also come to mind as excellent unit-related ideas.

That leads to the point of this reply, which is that there really are no inherently "favorite" units for me. I build units appropriate to the task at hand. Generally I either upgrade or cash in the ones that are no longer useful. I saw a thread about one or two weeks ago which saw a number of posters replying to essentially the same effect...

So, best-armor on fastest-chassis is neat, yeah, but it's usually unnecessary, and therefore a waste. Shortcuts to building such things when they /are/ necessary, similar to those previously discussed on these boards in manifold previous threads, /are/ neat and very interesting to me.

I've just reread the above and it seems a somewhat contentless reply, so I'll pose a question to potentially add some value: are there non-obvious mod combinations or unit combinations that permit a particularly strong offensive or defensive (or economic) effect at relatively low tech levels?

The armored elite probe strikes me as a great example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's easy to promote probes to elite status, and that happens fairly early in the game. Just takes a few successful missions of low risk. Upgrade 'em to armor, and you've got a great singleton defender (as long as you don't stack it with another combat unit).

I'll go now...

Walt

[Blake]

I'm quite fond of the (x)-1-1, artillary unit. I put one of these in every base, usually starting once I get Missile and Clean, altough I've made impact varieties in some games. These units are dirt cheap (2 rows).

The foremost reason I build them is anti-worm warfare under FM, they attack psi units with impunity, making worms easy pickings for other units, even with -3 planet. Also, if a spore launcher is harrasing you and your running FM it can be a PIA to destroy, but if it engages your (6)-1-1 then it fights with 1:1 odds, and your unit gets the +25% base and sensor bonus's, resulting in one very dead spore launcher. Great if you don't have empath ability yet.

They also have the very nice effect of defending all other units in a base against bombardment, giving other units a chance to heal. With the base bonus a defending arty unit is quite difficult to dislodge.

I station them in coastal cities, usually called "Coastal Defense" or "Shore battery". They can weaken enemy ships and discourage offshore bombardment. The coolest thing is a (6)-1-1 can often entirely destroy an unarmoured transport or IOD in one shot. An arty unit defends with almost complete impunity against naval bombardment, altough if the enemy ship attacks your base directly it

If enemy units make it into my base radius then they can look forward to a hard rain, unarmoured rovers are easy targets, and stacking them with a high armour defender doesn't help. If the units are unstacked then probe them!

Later in the game upgrade all of your arty to something like <(12)>-1-1, arty, SAM. This way they can shoot at aircraft and ground units with equal ease, the most usful thing is they can then bombard locusts, two volleys of shards should destroy almost any number of stacked locusts, all psi units defend with an armour rating of 1 against artillary.

The applications in MP would be even greater, I would use 2 or 3 per base rather than just 1, and upgrade to SAM abilities earlier, for the simple reason that if the enemy uses aircraft as ZOC blocking or to cover ground units just blast them out the sky with the arty, no unit ever has to leave your base and become vunerable to enemy aircraft. Especially usful if the enemy is using locusts for blocking. (altough most of that is theory, because I havn't really played many MP games....) The obvious counter would be to armour aircraft, post fusion 2 or 3 armour would really help.

[WhiteElephants]

My favorites would probably be a (0-1-1) former and... oh, probably a probe foil.

[Admiral]

Units that I think are cool are
1) Trained Antimatter (or other shield) Drop Probe Hovertank (I may not have the name totally correct)-With enough cash these units are great.
2) Blink Singularity Chopper-of course
3)(Shield)Psi Hovertank-If you are behind these units can help

Others?

[Dimension]

My favorite units would have to be the Colony Pod and Unity Foil.

The reason I build the Colony Pods is to expand my empire. I think you may have to go into the design workshop (press "U") to make this unit, but it's worth it! The secret is finding a terrain square without rocks or fungus. Sorry, they don't go in the ocean, either. I know that seems like a lot of restrictions, but when you find the right spot, just press "B" and BAM! You get a whole new city!

What do you do if you're having drone riots and can'd build Rec Commons yet? Just rush a Colony Pod! Stick those drones on the bus, that'll teach them to be discontent. Love it or leave it, that's what I say. They can go start a new city and run it their own way. It never works, though. They just get fussy after a few years, too. Make sure you don't stick the Doctor on the bus, or the rioters will get very angry, indeed... and that good physician will have trouble finding a practice in the Chiron suburbs for a few years.

Now for the Unity Foil. Most people don't have nearly enough Unity Foils in their game. Come on, it's a free transport with no support cost before you even have Doc: Flex! So send your peeps out for a vacation every now and then, especiallly if you're having drone problems. Just have all your formers, scouts, pet worms, and unity rovers go stroll along the beach. Look close and eventually you'll find the boat. Cruise time! Once in your boats, you may be tempted to look for more boats trolling around the dimensional rifts, but watch out--sea rifts can genetically alter the fish up to two squares away, and aquatic mutants have a harsh propensity towards causing late-game eco-damage.

[karu-san]

quote: Originally posted by Dimension on 02-26-2001 02:19 AM My favorite units would have to be the Colony Pod and Unity Foil.

Yeah, you know I'd have to disagree with D on the Colony Pod thing. Early on in my Alpha Centauri experience I learned quickly that resorting to an ill-conceived, megalomaniacal and imperialistic policy of base expansion only leads to the inevitable woes of managing an unnecessarily burdensome empire (witness the fact that the previous commentator on this subject appears, unfortunately and problematically, to be mired in precisely that managerial quagmire that I myself prefer to avoid. I exhort others to follow my cue). The misinformed, would-be czar of the fertile and tender abode that is Planet would do well to remember that simply spurting colony pods across her fragile surface like so many seeds of urban destruction will only hasten the downfall that even now looms dark and vengeful upon Planet's nitrous horizon.

As for me, after my enlightened followers and I alight gracefully upon the gentle Planet's soil we, joined by our gifted and insightful physician, immediately dispense with frivolities both technological and economical and create my Favorite Unit, the "Superior Person"*. Thus, I keep the mundanity of societal growth to a minimum and leap immediately to the superior existence that waits, with arms outstretched, for my kind.

*this is an Alpha Centauri Secret. Divulge this potent advice to others at your own risk. To create the Superior Person unit, execute the following maneuvre with care and precision:

1. press "CTRL+Q"
2. ignore the banality that then appears in the form of a question
3. press the down arrow key
4. press enter

Congratulations! You have joined the ranks of the Superior, which, of course, are not to be confused with those poor, pathologically power-hungry and relentlessly unsufferable Transcendi (blathering on about a "united" and "immortal" consciousness as they are wont to do).



[This message has been edited by karu-san (edited February 26, 2001).]

[lbores]

My fave is my Worm Hunter - 6e-4t-2 along with my favorite gun bearer Kato.

Slay all the wildlife - that's my motto! That's what Planet put them there for.

"Look Bwana! Another worm!"

"Tally Ho!"

[Dimension]

quote: Originally posted by karu-san on 02-26-2001 07:56 AM The misinformed, would-be czar of the fertile and tender abode that is Planet would do well to remember that simply spurting colony pods across her fragile surface like so many seeds of urban destruction will only hasten the downfall that even now looms dark and vengeful upon Planet's nitrous horizon.

Hahahahaha....

Eego wa nakanaka ojoozu desu nee! Nihonjin ja nai to omotte...

Of course, as soon as I saw the word "blathering," it sounded more like the whole thing was lifted out of a Douglas Adams book

[cbn]

My favorite units include the obvious-- best weapon choppers, probe ships, armored probes and almost anything with drop pods.


Ibores -- Are you playing Smac ?? In crossfire you can have an even more potent wormkiller using resonance weapons and armour. My best wormkiller would be 6re-3rt-2. You get an additional 25% attack/defense value against native life. Often I will build an attack only unit without the armour enhancements.

[lbores]

quote: Originally posted by cbn on 02-26-2001 11:24 AM Ibores -- Are you playing Smac ?? In crossfire you can have an even more potent wormkiller using resonance weapons and armour. My best wormkiller would be 6re-3rt-2. You get an additional 25% attack/defense value against native life. Often I will build an attack only unit without the armour enhancements.

Hmmm. Good! Me try! Me now have bigger club against wormies! Miriam too!

[RedFred]

I'd like to put in a plug for the lowly 4-1-2 rover. It is dirt cheap and once I can build it, it often marks the point where I can launch a decent war when playing a low tech faction. Even facing the AI with 6 attack and 2 or 3 defence I can usually turn the tide. The rover rush isn't elegant, it isn't difficult, but it is very effective.

It is also a handy unit for exploring, pod-popping (if you are without worms) and for attacking worms. Do people really build expensive 6e-4t-2's or 6re-3re-2's for worms? I never do.

While I typically build best weapon rovers for the edges of my empire, I seldom upgrade the old 4-1-2s stationed in the centre of my empire unless they are elites. At that point the old garrisoned 4-1-2s are used strictly for intercepting native life and the police effect. At Transcendance, I'll typically still have some perfectly serviceable 4-1-2s still knocking around.

Honourable mention to the 6X-1-2 rover. In SMACX playing random maps, the Aliens have a bad tendency to start nearby. The nerve gas rover often marks the point where I switch from being a sniveling Alien appeasing lackey to being an Alien killing giant.

[Skanderbeg]

I agree to Walt that the esoteric late game thingis are of course strong, but they don't make You win the game, because when You are able to build them, You have won and need only to finish the game.

So the real important strong units are those early game units who give You the little advantage to turn the game.

Some of my favorites:

4x-2-1 Rover: Saves Your a$$ from Marr and Himinee!

1-best-2-Rover: For capturing bases after Your airforce has killed the defender.

Needlejet colony pod: Really expensive, but sometimes this can be the gameturner. Your enemy will be very surprised if You found a base in the heart of his territorry and station Your nerve gas needeljets there!

Crawler on rover chassis: Because of their mobility , they can be easily and fast rehomed to the current SP-building base.

Probe cruiser: Faster and better than the probe foil.

And don't forget the strongest unit on Chiron: the good old Scout Patrol!
His cheapness is his strength! I vote for the Scout Patrol!


Addition: I hate those Unity foils! Okay, sometimes they pop an AA,
but most times they are only IoD-food, and they are so slow!

"Steelborn, Starborn"

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by RedFred on 02-26-2001 10:42 PM I'd like to put in a plug for the lowly 4-1-2 rover. It is dirt cheap and once I can build it, it often marks the point where I can launch a decent war when playing a low tech faction. Even facing the AI with 6 attack and 2 or 3 defence I can usually turn the tide. The rover rush isn't elegant, it isn't difficult, but it is very effective. It is also a handy unit for exploring, pod-popping (if you are without worms) and for attacking worms. Do people really build expensive 6e-4t-2's or 6re-3re-2's for worms? I never do. While I typically build best weapon rovers for the edges of my empire, I seldom upgrade the old 4-1-2s stationed in the centre of my empire unless they are elites. At that point the old garrisoned 4-1-2s are used strictly for intercepting native life and the police effect. At Transcendance, I'll typically still have some perfectly serviceable 4-1-2s still knocking around. Honourable mention to the 6X-1-2 rover. In SMACX playing random maps, the Aliens have a bad tendency to start nearby. The nerve gas rover often marks the point where I switch from being a sniveling Alien appeasing lackey to being an Alien killing giant.

I have to agree with RedFred. Hovers don't come until at least mid-game, which, by then, you generally have a pretty good idea of who will win, or at least, who the main players are. Rovers are just about the most indispensable unit there is. I like to use drop rovers (usually get those by the beginning of the midgame anyways). Nothing like dumping 4 or 5 rovers right outside a lightly defended enemy base, blasting your way through. Yes, you get a -50% attack penalty with the drop units the same turn.. but if you have units to burn, "Drop Rover Rush" works nicely. I've used this more times than I can count to grab lightly defended bases.

One tactic that seems to work sometimes is to equip one rover in the group with Artillery, esp. if the defending base has Air units, and just pin them down with that. For some reason, the Artifical Intell (what an insult to the term this game does...) doesn't move damaged Air units. Pin them down, take them out 1 by 1. Nice, especially if the only thing left is the air units. .

Lastly, probes ROCK! Nothing like going into an enemy base loaded with all of his air units (who taught this AI tactics? stupid.) and stealing the base right out from under him, then turning his own weapons on him. Makes it easy to win.

NorthSwordsman.

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by NorthSwordsman on 02-27-2001 05:15 AM I have to agree with RedFred. Hovers don't come until at least mid-game, which, by then, you generally have a pretty good idea of who will win, or at least, who the main players are.

To clarify: "Hovers" is not a misprint. Hovers=Hovercraft. Don't want a misunderstanding here.

NS

[This message has been edited by NorthSwordsman (edited February 27, 2001).]

[cbn]

Redfred

I seldom build the fully loaded model but just wanted to point out that resonance weapons/armour in conjunction with trance and empath can make an even stronger worm killer/defender than one that Ibores had mentioned. I actually seldom put anything other than minimal armour on my rovers since my idea of defense is to kill the other guy's attackers first.

I too keep around some trusty 4-1-2s but if I am running some ecodamage some may get upgraded to 6r SAM (for locusts) or 6r empath or both (depending on tech level, need, cash ). Often the upgrade costs seem so low that its worthwhile. I generally like the 4-1-2 SAM as part of the home defense as well since just having it around ensures death to any aircraft. Each SAM rover can take out two planes a turn. While its usally my preference that enemy plans get nowhere near my empire, the SAM upgrade seems like some cheap insurance.

[Dimension]

I think my REAL favorite unit would have to be my "Cargo 99" unit I design a couple turns before I transcend most games...

0-12t-2*4 ... Infantry Supply Crawler unit with Stasis Generator, Singularity Engine, Antigrav Struts, and Trance. The production cost is 99, and once you have the Nano Factory, it only costs 100 energy to upgrade a plain 0-1-1 crawler to the 0-12t-2*4 version. The things are as worm-proof as they come, but the important part is that they can get to your Mag Tubes twice as fast with the struts, and it only takes 22 of them to do the whole Ascent.

Cashing in crawlers for SP's is of course no new idea, but 100 credits for 99 minerals is about as efficient as they come, and if you have 22 crawlers within 1 square of a mag tube, you can disband all your other crawlers, and do a mass upgrade of your remaining 22 then Transcend the same turn.

[lbores]

quote: Originally posted by Skanderbeg on 02-27-2001 04:31 AM Addition: I hate those Unity foils! Okay, sometimes they pop an AA, but most times they are only IoD-food, and they are so slow!

I always make a 0-1t-3 Trance-port. When I find a Unity foil - I upgrade it to one of these. Not only increases the range but doubles its capacity as well. I prefer a DD Trance-port as soon as I can get one though.

And I never thought about a colony pod on a needle jet chassis. Duh!

[Skanderbeg]

quote: Originally posted by lbores on 02-27-2001 09:39 AM I always make a 0-1t-3 Trance-port.

When I got unity foils and they were not killed by IoD's, I normally
use them in this way:
Upgrade to 0-3res-3-Trance foil
Load a colony pod on it.
Send it to an empty island and build a base.
The 3res-foil is used as garrison.

quote: And I never thought about a colony pod on a needle jet chassis. Duh!

The flying colony pod is certainly less effective and much more expensive than the drop colony pod. But (especially with blind research) it is availiable quite early in the game.
And it has a very long range and is fast. Tip: You must have at least one move point left on the second turn before hitting B, or the flying pod will crash down!
I don't build this unit in most of my games, but there are times when the flying colony pod is the game-turner.
I remeber one of my games, where the Caretakers were on an island with the Manifold Nexus. I build a base with a flying pod right in the center of the Nexus, stealing it away from the Caretakers. And the flying pod was accompanied by a bunch of X-needlejets. Of course, the first next turns were hard fighting against the Alien attackers, but then the X-jets cleaned the island of the Caretakers.

Although I have never played multiplayer, I think that the use of a flying colony pod in a multiplayer game could be a nice surprise...

"Steelborn, Starborn"

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Am I the only one who values the lowly infantry transport? Beginning game it allows exploration outside boundaries without pacification issues whilst running FM.

It is a great escort for probe teams in an otherwise somewhat hostile environment. Say you want to infiltrate an opponent at truce or treaty and every time you send a probe team into his territory he bounces you back to your HQ by use of his speeders. Simply load up a infantry transport and place into position so that you can unload your transport and move into the base in question for infiltration without fear of bouncing.

They can be upgraded to armored versions for enhanced movement of speeders in wartime thereby negating forestation defense.

They can be upgraded to drop armored trance configuration and loaded with a former for pod popping in distant lands. The Former builds an airbase so that transport has a return ticket.

All in all I love these little guys.


PS. MariOne - LOL and I thought I was long winded with numerical detail that follows . Seriously tho' one small nitpick IIRC the singularity reactor vs. natives issue was supposed to have been corrected in latest SMACX patch perhaps even in latest SMAC patch but am not quite positive on the SMAC patch.
Og


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 28, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

Wow!

Printed and taped to the wall. Marione just saved me another 2 or 3 turns to transcendence. Thanks again, as usual!



edit: *As usual* , Marione's post is too long to print. So, I copied it to notepad, and edited just to keep upgrade ec costs. It is now a permenent resident in my smac documents with my game notes!
[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited February 28, 2001).]

[The Commodore]

I'm a big early-navy buff(with a name like'The Commodore' what do you think),and I find that a 6res-1-4 foil is hard to beat.

[Blake]

Ogie, interesting stuff on infantry transports, I have used the little critters but only as a "Bridge" between a sea base and land, it costs 10 less than a foil transport, and is cheaper to upgrade to clean.

[mark13]

quote: sorry Dim, but I have to nitpick on you, just a little.

ROTFLOL - fantastic job, MariOne - 200 rows for a gravship supply? That is ridiculous...but well worth it...it saves me having to guess in future how many ecs I'll need, at least...

[lbores]

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 02-28-2001 03:26 PM Am I the only one who values the lowly infantry transport?

Infantry transport? Can I assume a transport pod on a crawler chassis? And how do you get your infantry to board one? At a base with 'L'? I tried building a transport on a rover chassis to move AA's but couldn't get them to board it.

What's the point? Don't they only move one tile at a time?

[This message has been edited by lbores (edited March 01, 2001).]

[MariOne]

sorry Dim, but I have to nitpick on you, just a little.

IMHO, a SC-12t-2*4 Grav, is a sign of poor designing skills.
Both per se, and towards the purpose of upgrading crawlers to be cashed in.
This regardless the real utility of the unit, I'm talking about cost-effectiveness.

First, the unit above costs 9 rows.
This is more precise than stating the minerals, because the mineral value may vary depending on the Industry SE setting you have.
Besides, upgrade costs only take *rows* into account, and NOT the actual minerals.

Regarding the unit per se (forget for now the upgrade part):
The SAME unit, with a Hover (or Rover) chassis, would cost THE SAME 9 rows.
This means that if you really find the unit useful on the field, you're wasting the possibility of a *better* chassis for FREE.
The SAME unit with a Quantum Reactor costs only 8 rows. True you lose 10 hitpoints this way, you lose more than you spare. But you know that in PSI combat the Singularity Engine is disadvantaged (IIRC this has never been fixed). You praise this unit qualities against worms. It's indeed against worms that the unit would be better with a Quantum Chamber. It could have sense with *4 Reactor if you make it ECM against rovers.


Let's now come to the upgrade part.
You might have a point to keep the Infantry chassis, if you have lots of basic crawlers to upgrade, as we know that you can't change chassis.
But:
- for *upgrade to cash* purposes, you have far more cost-effective designs with Infantry chassis
- if by the time you get to Transcendence you still have basic crawlers, then you might revise you management. After Fusion, you can have SC-1-2*2 Fusion Speeder Crawlers at the same cost of a basic one. You should thus cash in the older ones when you have the occasion.

When you upgrade from a basic SC-1-1 to your "Cargo 99" (do you always run at -1 Industry to put that 99 in the name?), you spend your ec to *transform* something you already have.
You HAVE a basic crawler, worth 3 rows. After the upgrade you have a 9 rows unit you intend to cash in. What did you pay your ec for? You paid them to gain 6 extra rows, not 9. You already had 3, without needing to pay anything more.

In your example you cite the NanoFactory. You're right, but unless you play against the AI, only one of the players will have the NF, and that might be not you. So, for generality let's consider it an optional and compare the figures without.
Then, the upgrade from the basic cralwer to your Cargo99 will cost 200 ec to get 6 extra mineral rows. Thus each added mineral row costed you 33.33ec (NF 16.66). With Industry +2 it would have costed less directly rushing the project!
With Infantry chassis, consider a SC^-3t-1, a DropTrance Plasma *fission* crawler. It cost 14 rows. It means that to upgrade up to it you pay 160 ec to get 11 extra row. You pay 14.54ec per added row (7.27 with NF!).
Using the settings of your example (-1 industry & NF) this means 80ec to add 121 extra minerals, instead of your 100ec to add 66.
If you really need to have armor 12, using a purposeless ability lets you have a local optimum in upgrade effectiveness: a Drop Clean (!) crawler will cost 34 rows. You'd pay 450 for the extra 31 rows, at the cost of 14.516 each (NF 7.258). 225ec for 341 added minerals in your settings.
If you really have to stick to Infantry chassis, you can be even more effective, but you'll have to produce on purpose some armored Fusion Crawler to be upgraded. You can get down to 13.63 per added row (and 13.33 if you accept to spend 4 rows instead of 3 to produce each one).

But once you decide to produce new crawlers after Fusion, you might prefer to get Speeders, which are not armored but offer greater mobility and flexibility, and far greater upgrade opportunities.
Look at this:
You build a SC-1-2*2
Upgrade to a SC^-2t-2*1 DropTrance (23 rows)
pay 240ec for the added 20 rows at 12ec each.
Upgrade to a SC^-4t-2*1 (32 rows)
pay 350ec for the added 29 rows at 12.069ec each
Fusion Hover Supplies are almost as upgrade effective, but they cost one more row to produce, and it may not be worth if you keep them long on the field before before you cash them in.

It is also interesting to start with an armored Quantum Rover (or Hover):
a SC-4-2*3 costs 5 initial rows
upgrade to a SC^-4t-2*1 (32 rows)
That is, leave the armor as it is, add DropTrance, and remove the reactor
pay 320ec for the 27 added rows at 11.852 each!
the same with a SC-3-3*3 to a SC^-3t-3*1
(in both this cases, adding also armor 12 will yeld 63-67 extra rows for less than 12.1ec each!)


Then there's a final scoop!
If you have AntiGrav you also have Gravships (and with Jets or Copter it's the same anyway).
Build a SC-1-8*3 initial cost 5 rows.
For some reason, above armor 4, air supplies are MORE expensive with Fusion and Quantum reactors!
So, if you upgrade it to a SC-12-8*3, Clean & Secure (with air chassis you have less abilities to pick from!) its value will skyrocket to...
200 rows!
Yes, the same cost of the Ascent.
You'd add the extra 195 rows at a cost of 2110ec (1055 NF), for 10.821each (5.41 NF!!!).
You need to have quantum reactor for that, but then starting with a single air supply you can buy yourself the Ascent with mere 2110ec.
Note, using Fusion Speeders, you can obtain the same with 4 synth and 4 plasma and 2120ec (1060 NF). But you'd need to start with 8 crawlers, and the added rows would be just 176.
Or, lacking Quantum, you can use a Clean Secure Fusion Stasis Copter Supply yielding 188 total rows (+183rows per 1990ec at 10.874 each), and esaily provide the missing 12.

Compare all this with your proposal where you needed double the money (4400ec, 2200 WITH NF) and *22 starting basic crawlers* (!).

-----

Some final considerations.
You have to know whether your design is to be really used on the field, or if it is just a shell for upgrading and cashing in.
If it has to be kept on the field, of course you want to keep it as cheapest as possible but able to defend itself.
If it's a shell to be cashed in, you instead want it to be worth the most nminerals possible, without using too much armor, because of the nature of the upgrade costs.

I showed you that in both cases there were better options for your design.

You might have a point in the sense that your design was a *compromise* between the two goals. Well, as a cashable unit, it was a pretty LAME use of your ec in all sense anyway.

And anyway let's consider also the timeframe when it becomes available.
You need Temporal Mechanics for Armor 12.
You need Graviton Theory for AntiGrav, which means you also got the Quantum Reactor. You also researched Singularity Mechanics to have the Engine.
Then you say that the Cargo99 can defend from worms, and then be used to build the Ascent.
Well, TempMech is usually the LAST tech youget before Threshold! If it's not so, you're unlucky or you have to revise your research path.
So, strictly speaking, the Cargo99 is NOT supposed to be around more than 3-4 turns (you yourself said a couple of turns)! This makes it to my eyes a design made with the MAIN purpose of getting cashed into the Voice and the Ascent. And we saw that there can be *MUCH* better in that sense.
More.
If your goal is the Ascent as you say, then you DON'T NEED to research the SingReactor, NOR the Quantum one, and even less AntiGrav & Gravships. All these techs are in a branch that doesn't lead to transcendence, and which you actually need to research only if your goal is a Conquest Victory...

---

I hope you don't take this personally, just my two cents...
I saw you posting very well organized and systematic info...
This proposal of you was instead just a picturesque, folkloristic contribution

[Dimension]

quote: Originally posted by MariOne on 02-28-2001 12:44 PM sorry Dim, but I have to nitpick on you, just a little.

Turned out to be more than just a little, didn't it? Well, here goes...

There's pretty poor justification for you to say my crawlers suck as much as you did. You make it sound like there's something wrong with having regular infantry crawlers in the late game. Maybe in multiplayer, when someone could make a concerted effort to get a chopper into the center of your territory and wipe out 10 at a time, but most of the time you're better off to leave things the way they are, and just upgrade the crawlers near your borders. Obviously you should be making speeder crawlers when you have Fusion, but are you suggesting people take the time to produce rover replacements for the old crawlers towards the center of their territory?

Also, you're trying to tell me I can't count on having the Nano Factory. Come on. Most people are talking about single-player around here. Even if you are talking MP, it's not so far-fetched to consider the situation of the first person to start the transcent also having the Nano Factory. Sure, I was completely wrong in my thinking about crawler values, but to criticize me for referring to the common situation of having The Nano Factory when starting the ascent isn't nit-picky, it's ridiculous.

With you talking about multiplayer and crawlers, I have to ask... How do you cash in crawlers in multiplayer? Is PBEM completely different from TCP/IP? I've never done PBEM, but in TCP/IP you can't cash crawlers. You also start with a lot more units than you should.

That 0-12-14*3 Secure, Clean gravship supply costs 2000. With Eudamonic/Planned/Wealth and playing Yang that's still 1000 minerals. With The Nano Factory, it's 1050 to upgrade to it. It's a bad idea to even consider using it to rush Transcendance when you've already got crawlers everywhere that could be cashed in for a large percentage of the Ascent, and a few upgraded then cashed in for the rest.

If you're going to start off a post so critically, at least get it right. "Poor designing skills" isn't the problem. You should've said, "Your 0-12t-2*4 Grav crawler is a sign of complete ignorance regarding the way upgrade costs relate to mineral value."

quote: Then, the upgrade from the basic cralwer to your Cargo99 will cost 200 ec to get 6 extra mineral rows. Thus each added mineral row costed you 33.33ec (NF 16.66). With Industry +2 it would have costed less directly rushing the project!

With Industry +2 the Ascent costs 1600 minerals. You should know that rushing costs 8 energy per mineral in the early stages and 4 energy per mineral until it's almost complete. Are you suggesting that spending 12,800 energy for the ascent is cheaper than spending 2200 upgrading 22 crawlers that can complete it in one turn? Even if you've cashed in a few crawlers, the cost is still more than double what upgrading my crawlers is. Your post is extremely informative, except for the needless (and aparently totally incorrect) parts where you're just trying to be harsh.

ANYWAY, allow me to get on with talking about what I've actually learned from your post

I think you understand that Trance is only a 2-cost ability for armor ratings under 4 (and is free for armor ratings over 9), so Drop/Clean are the only 2-cost abilities available with a Stasis Generator. At armor ratings 4 and under, ECM and Trance both cost 2. Just wanted to include that info for everyone.

My problem is that I thought the upgrade cost and cash-out value were directly proportional. So let me look at the actual upgrade costs... I'll name these things by the number of minerals they cost with +0 industry just so I can keep them straight myself.

Infantry crawlers by mineral cost and price to upgrade from 30-mineral standard crawler (without NF):

Cargo 90 (0-12t-2*4 GravTrance) 200en = 2.22/min = 3.33/min added
Cargo 80 (0-12t-2*3 GravTrance) 180en = 2.25/min = 3.60/min added
Cargo 120 (0-12t-2*2 GravTrance) 220en = 1.83/min = 2.40/min added
Cargo 230 (0-12t-2 GravTrance) 340en = 1.48/min = 1.70/min added

Cargo 70 (0^-1t-1 DropTrance) 60en = 0.86/min = 1.50/min added
Cargo 110 (0^-2t-1 DropTrance) 120en = 1.09/min = 1.50/min added
Cargo 140 (0^-3t-1 DropTrance) 160en = 1.14/min = 1.45/min added
Cargo 160 (0^-4t-2 DropTrance) 180en = 1.13/min = 1.38/min added
Cargo 180 (0^-5-1 DropClean) 220en = 1.22/min = 1.47/min added
Cargo 200 (0^-6-1 DropClean) 240en = 1.20/min = 1.41/min added
Cargo 250 (0^-8-1 DropClean) 320en = 1.28/min = 1.45/min added
Cargo 290 (0^-10-1 DropClean) 380en = 1.31/min = 1.46/min added
Cargo 340 (0^-12-1 DropClean) 440en = 1.29/min = 1.42/min added

So, it looks as though the upgrade cost for any reactor is:
(Rows + armor-1) * 10 ... round down to nearest multiple of 20
Psi armor is treated as level 6 armor.

Here we see that the 160-mineral Silksteel DropTrance (or ECM) which you didn't mention is the most cost-effective upgrade, requiring only 12 crawlers (2160 energy total upgrade) to Transcend, plus a rush cost under 100 to finish it off, even if you cash in nothing else. This is about the same as the 2110 energy 0-12-14*3 SecureClean air crawler you cite as being the most efficient, and it gets around the inherent absurdity of using a single unit to Transcend, which is wasting tons of minerals for all those un-cashed crawlers.

Now let's look at the efficiency of Speeder Crawlers:

Fission
Speeder Cargo 140 (0^-1t-2 DropTrance) 140en = 1.00/min = 1.27/min added
Speeder Cargo 230 (0^-2t-2 DropTrance) 240en = 1.04/min = 1.20/min added
Speeder Cargo 270 (0^-3t-2 DropTrance) 280en = 1.04/min = 1.167/min added
Speeder Cargo 320 (0^-4t-2 DropTrance) 340en = 1.06/min = 1.172/min added
Speeder Cargo 360 (0^-5-2 DropClean) 400en = 1.11/min = 1.21/min added
Speeder Cargo 410 (0^-6-2 DropClean) 460en = 1.12/min = 1.21/min added
Speeder Cargo 500 (0^-8-2 DropClean) 560en = 1.12/min = 1.19/min added
Speeder Cargo 590 (0^-10-2 DropClean) 680en = 1.15/min = 1.21/min added
Speeder Cargo 680 (0^-12-2 DropClean) 780en = 1.15/min = 1.20/min added

Fusion
Speeder Cargo 70F (0^-1t-2*2 DropTrance) 60en = 0.86/min = 1.50/min added
Speeder Cargo 140F (0^-2t-2*2 DropTrance) 140en = 1.00/min = 1.27/min added
Speeder Cargo 160F (0^-3t-2*2 DropTrance) 180en = 1.13/min = 1.38/min added
Speeder Cargo 180F (0^-4t-2*2 DropTrance) 200en = 1.11/min = 1.33/min added
Speeder Cargo 200F (0^-5-2*2 DropClean) 240en = 1.20/min = 1.41/min added
Speeder Cargo 230F (0^-6-2*2 DropClean) 280en = 1.22/min = 1.40/min added
Speeder Cargo 270F (0^-8-2*2 DropClean) 340en = 1.26/min = 1.42/min added
Speeder Cargo 320F (0^-10-2*2 DropClean) 400en = 1.25/min = 1.38/min added
Speeder Cargo 360F (0^-12-2*2 DropClean) 460en = 1.28/min = 1.39/min added

Again, the upgrade cost for any reactor is:
(Rows + armor-1) * 10 ... round down to nearest multiple of 20

Here we see that the most efficient thing to upgrade your fusion rovers to is the 270-mineral Plasma Fission model, at 1.167 energy per mineral added, or 11.67/row (5.83 with Nano Factory).

EDIT: I've decided that the full cost/mineral is pretty insignificant, as when you're building crawlers you always get out everything that you put in, so the only significant thing is the extra minerals you get from upgrades.

You have to consider the crawlers you have, how many minerals you need, and what the most efficient units are that fit into the situation.

Say you have 30 crawlers (20 basic infantry and 10 basic fusion rovers). You can upgrade 3 rovers to the 320-mineral model and 1 to the 270-mineral model for 1300 energy (1230 minerals), then just cash in the remaining 26 crawlers for 30 each (2010 minerals total), which gives you complete transcendence for 30 basic crawlers and 1300 energy (650 with Nano Factory).

In that case, the 320-mineral speeder is useful because it gets you closer to the total minerals you need, and your average efficiency for the upgrades is still 1110 extra minerals for 1300 energy, or 1.171 energy/min added.

You would have to be a very poor player to need to actually build any new crawlers strictly to be upgraded and cashed in to Transcend, since you should just be ditching all the ones you have on the last turn. It is, however, always good to have crawlers for earlier projects, which brings us to the Needlejet. The 0-1-14*3 Quantum Penetrator Supply is 50 minerals to produce. Jets are available early and can generally get where they need to go in one move. Unfortunately, Clean is their only 2-cost ability with armor above Silksteel.

Fission
Air Supply 250 (0-1t-10 CleanTrance) 240en = 0.96/min = 1.20/min added
Air Supply 320 (0-2t-10 CleanTrance) 320en = 1.00/min = 1.19/min added
Air Supply 360 (0-3t-10 CleanTrance) 380en = 1.06/min = 1.23/min added
Air Supply 410 (0-4t-10 CleanTrance) 440en = 1.07/min = 1.22/min added

Fusion
Air Supply 440F (0-5t-12*2 CleanTrance) 480en = 1.09/min = 1.23/min added
Air Supply 600F (0-6t-12*2 CleanTrance) 640en = 1.07/min = 1.16/min added
Air Supply 940 (0-8t-12*2 CleanTrance) 1000en = 1.06/min = 1.12/min added
Air Supply 1380 (0-10-12*2 SecureClean) 1460en = 1.06/min = 1.10/min added
Air Supply 1880 (0-12-12*2 SecureClean) 1980en = 1.06/min = 1.08/min added

Quantum
Air Supply 440Q (0-5t-14*3 CleanTrance) 480en = 1.09/min = 1.23/min added
Air Supply 600Q (0-6t-14*3 CleanTrance) 640en = 1.07/min = 1.16/min added
Air Supply 980 (0-8t-14*3 CleanTrance) 1040en = 1.06/min = 1.12/min added
Air Supply 1440 (0-10-14*3 SecureClean) 1520en = 1.06/min = 1.09/min added
Air Supply 2000 (0-12-14*3 SecureClean) 2100en = 1.05/min = 1.08/min added

Singularity
Air Supply 1720 (0-12-16*4 SecureClean) 1820en = 1.06/min = 1.09/min added

All those variations are surprisingly similar. If you went through the game with an extremely small number of crawlers, you might actually use the 1440-mineral Quantum Needlejet supply to Transcend. Needlejets are otherwise impractical for Transcending, because you should be cashing every crawler in--you certainly won't need them anymore.

Keep in mind that the 270-mineral rover supply has an efficiency of 1.167/min added, which is better than every jet except the nearly useless expensive ones. That rover is by far the best thing to build/upgrade for rushing SP's in the mid-game.

If, however, you don't have a lot of cash to build/upgrade rovers, you may just want a supply transport to essentially have multiple bases working on one SP. At this point, upgrade efficiency is moot, because you always get all the minerals out of a crawler that you put in, and the needlejets start looking very good. You just want to design a jet that can get where you want it to go in a single turn, and you want a model that costs barely more than your base can produce in one turn. You don't want to go producing multiple crawlers that cost less than your base's minerals/turn, because then the extra will be wasted. You don't want to go producing expensive crawlers and end up rushing production, because at that point you'd be better off building a basic crawler and upgrading it.

[This message has been edited by Dimension (edited March 02, 2001).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Lbores,

Infantry transports are yes a transport on a crawler/infantry chassis. They move only one square but when unloaded allow the unloaded unit full movement.

What this means is take a best weapon infantry/speeder unit and hit 'L' to load into the transport. Take the transport (armored works best) and move at it slow pace of 1 per turn. Say for example you are situated as follows:

b f X

where b = base square
f = forest square
X = where you are with your best weapon unit in transport

Then move the infantry transport into the forest square. Click on the stack of units. Activate your best weapon unit and attack the base square. This effectively allows infantry units a two movement capability speeders a three movement capability and elite probes a 4 movement possibility. Whats more if you armor your transport it will defend before your lowly best weapon -1-X unit making the likelihood of of your attacking unit survival much greater.

This effectively negates the imposed penalty of forest on movement and thereby allows attacks on those bases.

It only gains you one movement point but that one movement point can be critical. It also allows you to build cheap best weapon-1-x units rather than having to try to armor everything.

Finally unlike sea bound transports if the trasnport is killed the carried units only get collateral damage (except probe teams of course they go poof).


Og
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 01, 2001).]

[RedFred]

Dang. I mostly followed MariOne's post, but now my brain is starting to hurt.

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by Dimension on 03-01-2001 05:44 PM With you talking about multiplayer and crawlers, I have to ask... How do you cash in crawlers in multiplayer? Is PBEM completely different from TCP/IP? I've never done PBEM, but in TCP/IP you can't cash crawlers. You also start with a lot more units than you should. [This message has been edited by Dimension (edited March 01, 2001).]

Actually, Dimension, you cash in crawlers in TCP/IP/MP by moving the crawler to the base you want to cash it into, then hitting "o". That will bring up your "crawler screen". It's not automatic like SP. PBEM works the same way as the SP variety does. The TCP et. al. does things a bit different. Another bug. . Anyone wanna rewrite this thing to eliminate the bugs?

Your logic tracks pretty clean, but I'm still wading through the numbers. Are you a math major or professor at MIT? .

NS
"But to the hero, when his sword
Has won the battle for the free,
Thy voice sounds like a prophet’s word;
And in its hollow tones are heard
The thanks of millions yet to be."-
Fitz-Greene Halleck (1790–1867)

[Skanderbeg]

Fresh from my design workshop:

Auxilliary cruiser 2-3res-6-AAA.

The armoured rover of the seven seas. And pretty cheap (30 minerals).

In my current game, I was playing Lal and started on a handkerchief-sized penninsula with Marr at the bottleneck! Urgh! Only solution was to go on the sea (swimming in shark basin as well because my custom made marine alien faction was in the game as well!) and play Lal the Svensgard style.
And with all that low mineral seabases I needed some sort of cheap and fast ship.
Combinated with some needeljets, these ships are great for capturing and holding sea bases! Ask Morgan and Punisher Murgur from the "Manifold Buccaniers", they can tell You!

"Steelborn, Starborn"