My working Cha Dawn Strategy.

[Adam_Smith]

I just had amazing success with Cha Dawn in a hotseat game that I played against Domai (Myself). I would like to share it. It is a working startegy, because I'm still making improvements on it. The only complete strategies that I have are for the Believers and the Drones.

I got SotHB first in a game with the UoP. Cha Dawn starts with two techs: Centauri Ecology and Social Psych. I believe that the only reason that the programmers gave him Social Psych as a starting tech is to give him a real shot at discovering SotHB first. He doesn't really need a Rec. Common until his base gets to size 4, because his native life have police ability and he starts catching them right away.

If you get SotHB you can get Centauri Empathy for free, but I didn't do that, because I had the manifold nexus, and I wasn't interested in using Green economics. If I didn't have the Manifold Nexus I might have chosen it though.

I chose to recieve Ethical Calculus for free instead, and I started my Democracy. That gave me growth. My units were almost all independent too so support didn't hurt. Actually, I would have chosen mobility if I didn't get that and flex from Sven(oops I should have added that part )

After that I researched Info. Nets for three reasons: Network Nodes, Planned economics (from Planetary Net.), and probes.

At this point I've explored quite a bit and I found 4 artifacts. With these I built the Weather paradigm and the HGP. Also, I built a Recycling tank in all my bases. Then a rec. common (when my bases got to about 3 or 4). Then I built Network nodes.

OK, that's pretty ruff reading maybe. Sorry about that.

Anyway, this is what was going on with Domai. He started out on a small Island with only smaller islands around. Very bad for him. Then he had to research mobility and flex before Biogentics and other techs that he could have used if he were not isolated. With flex I figured that I would build Sea colony pods instead of land colony pods since they come with a pressure dome and I couldn't build recycling tanks. I believe that this was a bad idea with Cha Dawn's IoD's in the waters. To make a long story short, Cha Dawn found his Sea bases and took them easily. I ended the game there.

Well, I'll just leave the thread open for comments for now.

[Enigma]

Adam:
Personally I think that one of cha Dawn's biggest advantages is naval! He is much like Deidre in this respect... I almost never go with sea colony pods because sea formers are very expensive and my land bases get their production queues tied up for a long time building expensive naval units. All I have to say though is that IoD's can be easily swamped if you know ahead of time... 20 minerals for a foil with trance or empath is dirt cheat, considering it's good movement.

But it is always good to dominate the oceans with Dawn. My only real complaint about him is he is so terribly average at being a builder that he needs to always attack... whereas Deidre could just allocate 100% research to labs for a little while and come out ahead. You need to be very aggressive with Dawn.

Also how important is Centauri genetics? I like brood pits a lot as a green Morganite.. how useful are they to Dong?

[Adam_Smith]

I agree with your post. I had a very bad hand with Domai so that has to be taken into account. I only built the sea bases as a special case, but maybe I shouldn't have.

I really like the tech Centauri Genetics because if you prepare correctly then you can build Demon Boil LoC's. It's true that these units can be easily defended against, but they are usefull when used with other troops. Their biggest advantage is their mobility. You can go anywhere on planet and raid in and out and your opponent will have to set up defenses everywhere, or at least build some empath fighters.

The Brood Pits are sometimes not so important. I think if you have a Centauri Preserve, Biology Lab and all the Secret Projects you can build Demon Boils anyway.

[stuntman19]

Adam:
I would tend to agree that your Domai vs Dawn was a case specific event more dictated by landing sites then anything else. From my experience playing with and against Domai with various opponents is that he is very tough to beat if he gets a reasonable start on a larger map. Especially if he is played by a human player. His industry and growth abilities if used properly allow him to expand pop, infrastructure ,and military rapidly more than compensating for the -2 research. This he can make up through diplomacy and probe if needed.

Although I enjoy playing as Dawn because it is a challenge, his lack of economy and industry hurt him bad in trying to become a power. I would agree with enigma that as Dawn you need to be aggressive, especially early on when native life forms are easily captured and can dominate before empath and trance units are more abundant. Plus the life forms dont count in support that helps some, but the slow build of infrastructure hurts in games of any length.

Anyway in my opinion in multiplayer, with players experienced in using each of the factions, Domai wins over Dawn is the more powerful.

Also a question, and not trying to dis, but do you think that a comparison of 2 factions using hotseat playing as both is a fair assessment? Because you know the plan of attack for the other? Just wondering?

[Adam_Smith]

I believe that one player player two factions is the best accessment of faction ability. The reason is that multiplayer can not give you the number of experimentation that this style can. I wish more people would experiment also, but there is not much interest.

Yes, it's true that Cha Dawn starts well and slows down. I have not won a game as Cha Dawn where I have started so well that I basically had it all wrapped up by mid game. Don't get me wrong. I have great faith in the Drones. I think that Cha Dawn is the greatest threat to them though.

[Enigma]

What I like about the brood pits though is the reduced costs to build a unit... I think it takes like 2 or 3 bars off of the build cost of a LoC- VERY significant since these suckers are quite expensive.

As far as I am concerned one of Domai's biggest weaknesses is in midgame where it is VERY inefficient for him to go 100% labs- basically he can not compete with someone who is reaching straight for the sky in techs. In this respesct I think Aki Zeta is very useful... with a research AND efficiency bonus. But here is where Deidre comes in- she can get very large and allocate to 100% labs- shooting her ahead of domai in tech. If she can then capitolize on those new techs by either conquering (with weapons techs) or achieving exponential economic growth (with techs like tree farms etc.).

Plus deidre has none of Dong's penalties. And she can run wealth- which is a very nifty SE choice.

But anyway to each his own I will probably never play many more MP games in SMAC/X.. just trying to occupy my few remaining days of summer vacation now.

[Adam_Smith]

I think if I were going to play against Domai right now and I couldn't be Domai then my second choice would be Aki Zeta. I have good success with her in my little hotseat games. Cha would be first though. I haven't tried Dee yet. Dee on Wealth? I don't know about that though. A planet faction must have good human troops to compliment native troops.

I've put some more thought to the brood pits. You must have a brood pit, centauri preserve and a biology lab.... two special projects and +3 planet rating to breed demon boil native life. Of course, worms can use monoliths so you probably can have demon boil worms before Centauri Genetics.

[Jasonian]

I've come up with an interesting Cha Dawn strategy that hasn't failed me yet.

Start out, and send your worms and scouts out to recruit an army of worms as quickly as possible. Keep these alive; don't be too risky with them. The idea is to build up a massive force of mindworms before meeting anyone. Depending on the size of the planet, the ocean coverage, and the amount of fungus, this might be easier or harder.

Try to have about 15 worms by M.Y. 2135 or so. If you have them now then this about the perfect time to contact another faction. If you contact earlier, that's fine. Just make sure you have the worms.

The whole point of gathering this army is the fact that it will boost your power really high! Talk to the faction you contacted and get a pact with them. That's right, a pact. Offer some cash or technology. You should credits to spare fighting off worms that didn't want to join your glorious army, killing fungal towers, and popping pods. So yeah, get the pact.

Next, search out any more human factions and get pacts with THEM. It should be easy. Since you signed the first pact, your might will be even higher, so they will quickly see the sense in becoming your ally. Get as many pacts as you can (I once got pacts with 4 other factions at once! Whoo! )

These pacts will give you access to the monoliths in your allied territory and allow your worms to pass though easily, searching for more pods and worms to recruit.

At home, you should have been expanding like Yang. Get about 10-20 bases. They should build, in this order: Garrison (3-res or syntmental), Colony Pod, Recycling Tanks, Colony Pod, Permiter Defence. Once they get the fence, you can build more colony pods, or improve the base with a terraformer or rec commons, or perhaps a network node to cash in an artifact that you found out on the fungus.

Evenutally, all the factions you have contacted will go to war at eachother, since they will all have high might due to your pacts with them. When this happens, try to avoid contact with everyone except factions you find useful (Aki and Zak work good as slaves. Give them a tech or credits to keep 'em happy)

Under the guise of peaceful treaties and pacts, build up your mindworm forces and switch to Green. If you can, secure the Manifold Nexus. This will give you at least + %40 in your mindworm attacks, not to mention the bonus from the worm's morale.

If you trained your forces well and kept a pact or two, any faction that goes against you will quickly find itself under attack by local mindworms. The Planet bonus + the worm's morale should be enough to crush even a 3-res garrison. The good thing about your army is that it will never become obselete and it functions as an economy as well. (killing worms makes up for Dawn's -1 economy easily. I had 2500 credits by M.Y. 2170) Destroy your foes quickly, keep building your forces, and the world will be yours.


What do you think? Any use?

Edit: various typos.
[This message has been edited by Jasonian (edited August 16, 2000).]

[Adam_Smith]

Thanx for sharing Jasonian.

Your startegy is very different in some ways than mine. I'm sure that you do well with it though, because the areas where are startegies are similar are very important.

Here are some things that I do different than you.

1) I use native life for garrison and I don't build perimeter defenses anywhere. I build the Neural Amplifier so I usually don't have to worry about those. Also, it doesn't take me long to win any wars so my enemies really don't have any time to launch a real assualt on my bases. If I'm in a prolonged war with a human player that might be different.

2) I always suppliment my native forces with rovers and sometimes invaders (planes when I get them). It's true that your worms can defeat a 3-res garrison if the morale is equal, but many factions have better morale than you. Also a human player will build 3-res trance garrisons.

3) The last thing is that I really don't care about pacts that much. The reason is that Cha does not get good commerce and his military is so strong that he is better off taking what he needs. I will use a pact if I want to concentrate on 1 enemy or if I'm so big that beating people up won't be worth the little commerce that I get from them. Remember that playing as factions like Cha Dawn that your pact mates will be getting better commerce from you than you will be getting from them.\

The thing that we do the same is raise a big worm army and use it in the field. That's a huge strength

[Jasonian]

It's a great strength! A mindworm army 1) is always up-to-date, 2) travels 3 spaces/turn most of the time, 3) won't be attacked by other native life forms, 4) is completly free of support, 5) grows in size the more you use it outside of fighting other factions, and 6) generates enough economic revenue to make Cha Dawn richer them Morgan!

3-res shree res! +40 Planet beats +25 defence against worms any day. Althought those 3-res Trance garrisons might be a problem... but that can be fixed later on by using weapons that plasma armor just can't defend against.

Anyway, to defend my points.

1) My worms are usually out in "the field", which is the unclaimed territory or the farthest parts of my territory. Here is where I train them up to Great and Demon boils, gather new worms, and make my cash. I generally don't take advantage of the x2 worm police since none of my bases ever get large enough to have major drone problems. They exist only to keep my faction alive while I mess with my worms.

2) Adding a few Chaos (or above) rovers/penetrators could never hurt, and it would force the AI to choose between protection against high weapons or protection against mindworms. Either way, they lose. The idea is not to let them get this far, but if the game keeps going on, then it makes sense to add human units into your native armies.

3) The pacts are an important part of my strategy! They make sure I have plenty of terrirory to build my army in, and they also make sure my homeland will be safe. See, with my entire worm forces away from the bases, a decient attack force could break though while I'm setting up garrisons and perimers. I don't really care if the pacts end later, as they served their purpose. And I'm certainly not in it for the money! That's what destroying fungal towers is for!

From what I gather, you play Dawn as a semi-builder, builidng projects and facilities to help you breed more powerful worms. I play as a fast expantionist with a large army Dawn. Kind of a "speek softly, but carry a bunch of mindworms" deal. Of course, if there is no one to fight, I'd be happy to build a few Bio Labs or such things and use my cities to build worms with some training already in.

I haven't had the time to go naval yet, since my planets are usually mostly land. But I will try that part out with IoDs. Capturing an IoD with a worm and a launcher on it must bring a smile to your face.

[Adam_Smith]

I definitely recommend IoD capture. Build 2 foils ASAP. Even if there is no war in the water you can get all the resources in the ocean, and there is a lot.

[Khan Singh]

You are probably right that 1 vs 1 hotseat is a better method of assessing faction strength than any game against the ai or even against multiple humans.

However this method is probably unfair to the Cult and also overstates the Drones admittedly formidable strength. If you can kill the drones in this type of scenario you probably have a pretty good strategy.

[Simpson II]

I'm not sure if you ever can compare two factions like the Cult and the Drones. A given player is likely to have similarities in their games with the two factions, which would favour one or the other.
On the other, between two different players comparison really is meaningless, so perhaps this is the best way.
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited August 21, 2000).]

[Adam_Smith]

I admitted before hand that I have much more experience with the Drones so they have some advantage there. Recently though I'm getting much better with the Cult. On the other hand, I don't think my Drone startegy can get much better.

In my most recent game as the Cult I had a very difficult start. I started on the same continent with H'minee. She was on top of me quickly and I decided to take things to another land mass (yes, run ). Dee started off very well on the other hand. It took me a long time, but I finally surpassed her in power. I still might lose though, because she is ahead in tech.

[cbn]

Bump

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by cbn on 11-20-2000 12:20 PM Bump

^^Bump For Reference^^



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"The report of my enemy's death is not an exaggeration." -NorthSwordsman