Cha-Dawn: what to do?

Sarxis · January 20, 2001, 22:43

What one thing would you change (increase/decrease) to make this faction more, shall we say, playable?

Sindai · January 21, 2001, 00:12

Oh that's easy. When I re-did all the factions a while back, and in doing so I turned Mr Cheesedong into the Green Conquerer From Hell:

-Changed one of his starting techs from Social Psyche to Centauri Ecology (allows contruction of mindworms from day 1)

-Added a +25% bonus to all psi combat (meaning an effective +45% on all psi offense, or +65% when running Green.)

-Gave a free Bio Lab in each base in addition to the Brood Pits with discovery of prereq techs. Since Bio Labs allow 1-turn healing for native units, like command centers/aero complexes/navel yards do for the other 3 types.

Everything else I left the same. If he's given some room to expand he's now just as stong, if not even moreso, than Miriam at a pure, low-tech momentum style. Mind Worms for police mean minimal infrastructure, bio labs give extreme longevity to early-game offenses that other factions need to get an SP (command nexus) for, and they even get a healthy research kick out of the bio labs, further encouraging a massive ICS conquer strategy.

Note: I'm well aware that Cha Dawn is now almost rediculously strong, but that's okay, because I've made all the other factions equally rediculous. Morgan got free energy banks and +2 base Econ. Miriam got free Punishment Spheres in each base (which, incidentally, don't halve a base's research output when put in as part of a faction power, so to compensate for her never having to worry about drones, I increased the Research penalty to -3 and got rid of her support bonus), and her fanatic bonus was kicked to +35%. University lost it's automatic extra drones (switched to Hive to balance them) and gained another +1 to Research, etc, etc, etc.

I'll have to get around to posting all the changes one of these days. They're very interesting and loads of fun to play.
[This message has been edited by Sindai (edited January 20, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sindai (edited January 20, 2001).]

Jasonian · January 21, 2001, 00:25

Make Cha playable? Easy! It's called "Abundant fungus"

That should be all the help you need.

Qilue · January 21, 2001, 10:21

Playing any green faction on less that abundant fungus is making the game harder for yourself.

As to helping Cha Dawn, change this line in alphax.txt (or alpha.txt)

10, ; Combat % -> Psi attack bonus/penalty per +PLANET
to
25, ; Combat % -> Psi attack bonus/penalty per +PLANET

Sindai, psi bonuses from Planet rating don't add to defence, only attack, but the psi combat bonus does.

MariOne · January 21, 2001, 10:56

Just my .02 depreciated Euros.

It seems to me that everybody on this board are struggling to make things harder to a human player, twitchin the rules, the settings files and the self-imposed restriction in a way that they can still scrape a little fun from the filth on the bottom of the barrel, when playing against the AI.
First and most famous that comes to my mind is the OCC, but you invented hundreds others.

Personally, my solution has been from the start: stop bothering to find a worthy opponent in the AI. Play it for killing time as it comes out of the box, and match with humans if you want to find challenge for the mind.

Now, how does this all fit with asking to enhance or soften a faction because it's too hard to play with?
While everybody is trying to make it more hindered & penalized because it's too easy to win just with any of the standard factions?

The answer is, don't make Cha easier: practice, make your skills better, and sometimes also you will find it too easy to play just as it is.

Sindai · January 21, 2001, 12:45

quote:

Originally posted by Mouse on 01-21-2001 09:21 AM
Sindai, psi bonuses from Planet rating don't add to defence, only attack, but the psi combat bonus does.

I'm fully aware of that. As you can see, I said that he'd get the large 45% and 65% bonuses from the combined psi + planet only on OFFENSE.

Marione -

Actually, I still have loads of fun playing the AI and always will, because I'm an absolutly terrible player.

I didn't change the factions to make them more difficult, I changed them all to make them far more specialized and powerful, because that's the way I like to play my games. Balanced High. And believe me, playing as one of these overpowered factions against all the other overpowered factions makes for some extremely fun games. Even against the AI.

Sarxis · January 21, 2001, 22:25

I really am not interested in testing an 'enhanced' version of the Cult against the AI, but more so against human players. I know that playing on a fungus rich planet really allows Cha to shine, but many times players don't want to deal with all the fungus and mindworms. Heck, I know I don't!

Qilue · January 22, 2001, 16:34

The mod I suggested for Cha Dawn is for not for when playing him, rather when playing against him.

buster · January 22, 2001, 17:10

The one thing I miss in CHa is the ability to go +2 economy.

The combination of cant choose wealth with a minus1 economy does this.

Result is you will fall behind around turn 2150 or so when the others start putting on "the tech turbo".
Take away one of them (the economy penalty or the wealth prohibition) and the faction will become playable.

Sarxis · January 22, 2001, 20:27

Maybe the Cult should also get the fanatic attack bonus that Miriam gets; after all, it is a 'cult' that is supposed to be on a 'cleansing jihad'. The more I think about it, the Cult is really just a terrible faction when it comes to balance. What was Firaxis thinking? Time to go editing.

Sindai · January 22, 2001, 22:41

Read my changes Annikoba

The plus to offense is kinda built-in for native life, which is what Cha is for anyway....

Buster...hehehe. I think playing my improved Cha against anyone trying to run FM would be loads of fun. They get at least a -30% bonus when attacking your native army....and you get at least a 45% offenseive boost.

Why try to out-build 'em when you can swamp them with native lifeforms, which also happen to be immune to probe teams all by themselves, so all that cash won't do them an ounce of good....

Sarxis · January 23, 2001, 02:19

The more I thought about it, the better I like the idea of giving Cha the fanatic bonus; the rest of his stats seem to point in a similar, though antithecal, way to that of Miriam's. But of course, the psi-combat bonus is probably the best way to do this, and it is in line with this faction's character.

So, Cha is a momentum faction too.
[This message has been edited by Anunikoba (edited January 23, 2001).]

theohall · February 28, 2001, 19:16

How about playing Cha without modifying his files or getting to choose what Planet looks like?

Any suggestions then whether they be MP or SP?

RedFred · February 28, 2001, 19:34

Are we really talking about Cha Dawn here? Underpowered?! I picked the Cult for my first OCC game because I thought that they would be the easiest faction.

Misotu · March 1, 2001, 03:08

Cha Dawn gets a bad press. But as a momentum faction, he rocks. And actually, against the AI, he's a pretty good builder faction too. Okay, yeah, research penalty 'n all. But still - those free brood pits are just neat when you're pop booming. Plus all those free, independent units from the captured life forms with their +1 police.

The Cult are underrated, they're more powerful than they appear.

Rastapopoulos · March 4, 2001, 18:58

If it is possible, I would hereby ask Tau Ceti to put me up as The Cult in a game with Anunikoba, who may play any faction he chooses. And I'll play Cha Dawn as is, of course.
All we need is two more players to join us, what d'ya say...
Mind you, I'll watch out for those PB's this time...

NorthSwordsman · March 5, 2001, 10:52

To help you play CheeseDong, reference this thread, just bumped up the list....
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum12/HTML/001262.html

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"The report of my enemy's death is not an exaggeration." -NorthSwordsman