Energy Parks

[Slimehorse]

Kinjiru: thanks a lot. One other thing- at what part of the game should you begin building them? It seems to take a lot of effort- when is it worth it to pull all those formers off your city squares to start on a remote energy park? Oh- and also, does the energy park serve one city only (i.e. all the crawlers come from your Headquarters) or do you share the wealth?

Also, has anyone had the pleasure of seeing the real-life energy park out in the Mojave desert? It's somewhere between Mojave, CA and Barstow, CA, on the way to Las Vegas. Very very cool.

[LoD]

Adding to Kinjiru's post: the most efficient way to build crawler parks AFAIR is like this:

SSSSS
EEEEE
SSSSS
EEEEE
SSSSS

S - Solar Collectors
E - Echelon Mirrors

Also, you have to remember to place a base somewhere nearby the energy park - the whole bussiness has to be inside your territory to generate any real revenue.

------------------


LoD - Owner/Webmaster of

THE CHIRONIAN GUILD SMAC Site

[Slimehorse]

Wonderful. Beautiful. Thanks very much for the info. I'll name bases after you in my next game

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Slimehorse,

A couple of variants on the layouts for an energy park. One I usually prescribe to is as follows:

Make rows of squares alternating between echelons and solar collectors at least 5 squares if not longer in length

ex.

EEEE....
SSSS....
EEEE....
SSSS....
EEEE....

etc.

Resulting energy (w/o specials or +2 econ or Merchant Xchange) at 3000 ft is as follows:
4 4 4 4 ....
8 10 10 8 ....
4 4 4 4 ....
8 10 10 8 ....
4 4 4 4 ....

etc.

Resulting energy from the 5 X 5 plot of land is: 132 energy or 5.28/square (6.28 if +2 econ, 7.28 if +2 econ and Merchant X-change). Obviously the longer the array the better as you get more 10 energy squares and hence the average energy per square goes up. Also if not obvious you'll want to harvest energy from the solars before harvesting the mere 4 energy echelons.

E-parks are almost always best suited for for development after energy restriction are lifted (obviously) also they are better developed when superformers are inplay as the t-forming can be fairly extensive and to t-form ahead of the crawlers coming out fromthe target base site(s).

Inlight of the heavy t-forming required many folks simply prefer sea t-forming with fusion trawlers. Altho' energy output is not as great the resources to develop the energy are much less.

Compare the results of tidals being 4 energy (w/ thermocline) per square but only the need for a simple tidal harness.

Usually onelooks to crawl resources back to but one or two bases those that have preferably Science enhancing Sps and the full complement of econ and science enhancing facilites. Normally if only one exists it should be the headquarters to prevent efficiency losses.

Og

One last point to add to Kinji's point 'bout saving energy for land lifting. You still are capable of prebuilding an echelon mirror under a base site and it will still give its benefit to surrounding solar collectors. So build the base site on an echelon and proceed as he described. One other point if you do not build a base and your echelons extend outside your boundaries, the echelon contribution to the solars for those echelons outside the boundaries are NOT considered. Yet another reason to build a base to extend your boundaries. Nothing irks you more than having the AI plop a base down and have your energy park output cut nearly inhalf b/c all of a sudden your echelons fall within the bounds of an opposing AI.


Dang... LOD beat me to the punch. Grumble server down grumble.
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 22, 2001).]

[Slimehorse]

This thread has been printed out and will be studied most intensely. Ask a simple question, get a bunch of great answers. Much appreciated, Mssrs. K., LoD, and O.O.

[Slimehorse]

Combing Vel's guide one sees the term "Energy Park" come up quite a bit... but would one of you experts please explain how to build one? I'm lost without a map. Specifically- 1) what do they look like and how do you put one together; 2) patterning/ratio of collectors to Echelons; 3a) do bases or crawlers work them; 3b) and therefore should they be in the center of your empire or out in some lightly colonized hinterland; 4) sea parks vs. land parks. From what I've gathered, parks are the key to winning on Transcend, which is something I have yet to do. By far. Wow, didn't want to confess that.

[Kinjiru]

Energy parks are not necessary to win on transcend, but they sure do make things easier!

The best place to build one is in a remote region that no one is likely to investigate. The reason you want it remote is that your usuage of the park will wholly depend on crawlers. And as I am sure you know, a couple of arty units or a squadron of bombers can utterly destroy a collection of crawlers in no time.

As to how to build one, simply raise all the land you are going to use. You want every square above 3000 meters to gain the maximium benefit. It will get very very expensive to raise all this land, so first of all, look for spots that are already up high. Second, plop a colony pod down in the middle of the to-be-raised land. If you have a base there, your terraforming costs will drop tremendously. Once you have the land raised, you can starve the base down to size one and then disband it by building another colony pod there.

As for layout, I will leave that to you to find the old threads that talk about it. There is a layout that provided maximum benefit for least cost. The thread was originated maybe 14 months ago or so. Look for ones with the term 'energy park' in the subject.

How to utilize a park? Once you have your mirrors and collectors set up, just plop crawlers down on every square. If you are using the most efficient layout, you will be pulling in 10 or 12 energy per square every turn ( I forget which, the screen would just show '8+').

You can achieve higher absolute returns with land parks. However, in SMAX, I think sea parks are the better value because you do not have to spend a dime (other than unit costs) to build them.

Have fun!

[Skanderbeg]

Land energy parks:
Don't forget to drill to aquifer at the highest places!
The rivers will ad one more energy to each square they flow through.

Inland seas, if You have one in Your territorry, or if You can terraform one, are a ideal place for a sea energy park. A sea base in an inland sea needs no big defense and can concentrate on science enhancements, and a second base at the coast at the inland sea can build the trawlers.

"Steelborn, Starborn"
[This message has been edited by Skanderbeg (edited February 23, 2001).]

[Aredhran]

Very important thing to remember:

Echelon mirrors only work as advertised when they are inside of your territory (just like sensors)

Therefore, if you decide to build your energy park in a remote location it is a good idea indeed to plop down a base, not only for reducing the terraforming cost, but also to actually receive the full energy input from your terraforming effort.

As far as sea parks go, they are usually cheaper than land ones (ie. less terraforming involved), even if the energy/square ratio is lower than land-based parks.

As said above, try to home all the collecting crawlers in one single base (or maybe two). This base should have: HQ (avoid inefficiency), all lab and econ facilities (to maximize your investment), the Science SP. If you can, try also to have the Merchant Exchange there (do not overlook the benefits of +1 ec/square !), and keep it in Golden Age (shouldn't be too hard with a high energy income, with only 10% psych). For sea parks, you'll need the Thermoclyne Transducer (if you're playing SMAX).

Aredhran

[lbores]

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 02-22-2001 03:48 PM Compare the results of tidals being 4 energy (w/ thermocline) per square but only the need for a simple tidal harness.

Can we assume that the same is true for the Freshwater Sea?


[This message has been edited by lbores (edited February 23, 2001).]

[Slimehorse]

Again, I'll say thank you. One very minor question, perhaps semi-off-topic but I think I can justify it since crawlers and trawlers are an integral part of the overall energy park system (no, I'm not a lawyer). Yes, I know that a "trawler" is a sea crawler, but is that a name built into SMAC or is that just what we've all just decided to call them? When I stick a supply unit on a foil, the workshop automatically calls it something like "fusion supply foil" or something, and I've been renaming that to "trawler," in order to sound more professional, like all you experts. But am I in fact designing it wrong? Is there a better sea crawler design that I'm missing that the game will automatically designate as "trawler?" (In the same way that I was delighted to see my Überdeathgravship get called a "Deathsphere" (or whatever it was) automatically)

And lbores, my assumption is that all of this would hold for the FS also, given all it does is +1 nutrient... which in my opinion makes it maybe slightly less attractive for sea parking, since I like lots of coastal bases along it with workers working the sea squares. Although if you get a nice big FS, like in the huge map of Planet, there's still room in the center for a sea park (which, given what I've been gleaning from the boards is I think probably a better role for the center than what I've previously been doing, which is dumping sea bases in there).

Edited to add a reply to lbores.
[This message has been edited by Slimehorse (edited February 23, 2001).]

[LoD]

Slimehorse: A trawler is just a term for a Sea Crawler coined by the SMAC community. So don't worry, you are not left out on anything here .

LoD

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Lbores,

I'm a bit confused. The t-forming required for a tidal harness is the same regardless of waters t-formed. Geothermal shoals harnessed and trawlered would of course only make the payback better (almost equivalent to average per square output from energy park) at a substantially reduced cost of former time vs. traditional echelon mirror/solar collector raise elevation to 3000+meters t-forming activities.

Og

[Slimehorse]

And I too had completely forgotten about the Geothermals! Of course- that's definitely the place to go about sea energy parking. The downside being that I don't think I've ever encountered an inland geothermal shallows, which means lots of expensive uplifting to turn it into an inland sea, or else defense of all those wimpy trawlers becomes an important consideration. Especially since in the game I'm playing the GS lies directly between me and Miriam...

[Kinjiru]

Regarding the defense of open water sea parks...

In MP, one of the best ways to defend the sea park is to intentionally leave (or plant) sea fungus in one or two squares. Park a loaded up carrier, destroyer and foil probe in that square. The enemy can't see you until too late! Even better when you have the Xenoempathy Dome.

In SP, this doesn't work since the AI can see you in the fungus anyway. But still, parking a carrier with some bombers in the general vicinity is probabaly the best way to protect your investment. Also, putting armor on your crawlers defintely helps. Face it, you are going to lose a bunch of trawlers no matter what you do, if you can damage or destroy the attacker at the same time, then you are going to come out ahead.

Hmmm... defense in depth might work here as well. Build a bunch of foils that are heavily armored, but weaponless (and clean of course). And just park them in a massive line, two or three deep, along the approached to your sea park. Back them up with one or two armorless, but heavily weaponed foil, with the Marine Detachment if playing SMAX. If you have one or two big sea parks this strategy could work, if you have lots of smaller ones then it would probably not be cost-effective.

[Aredhran]

How could it be cost-effective at all ? Think of all the boats you'll be building... No matter what you do, you're better off producing a bunch more of trawlers, and accepting the loss of a few (which will be easily replaced).

I like the carrier hidden in fungus strategy, but that ability comes much too late to be of any use in most games.

Aredhran

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by Aredhran on 03-01-2001 01:05 PM How could it be cost-effective at all ? Think of all the boats you'll be building... No matter what you do, you're better off producing a bunch more of trawlers, and accepting the loss of a few (which will be easily replaced). I like the carrier hidden in fungus strategy, but that ability comes much too late to be of any use in most games. Aredhran

Wouldn't it be better to have your formers build a fungal border all around the energy park during/after completing the park, (assuming it was built in open sea.. if it was in an enclosed area, toss the idea out the window) stationing a few foils/cruisers *clean, of course* , IOD's, what have you, in the area? The fungus does slow units down, not to mention, (unless they have fungal movement bonuses) they will end their turn in the fungus. This, of course, would not apply to IODs, Sealurks, and those units that can move thru fungus freely... but it would slow others down somewhat. I realize that this idea may not be the best idea, but it does provide /some/ protection. You can always selectively built fungus spots to channel an enemy into an area where you have a nice trap for them. I know there are alot of things in this idea that may or may not work, but I think it might be worthy of pursuing as a tactic.

NS

[Aredhran]

Again, think of the time wasted planting fungus, when you could be building more tidal harnesses...

Not to mention that you wouldn't be able to see enemy units in the fungus you planted there yourself
[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited March 02, 2001).]

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by Aredhran on 03-02-2001 05:48 AM Again, think of the time wasted planting fungus, when you could be building more tidal harnesses... Not to mention that you wouldn't be able to see enemy units in the fungus you planted there yourself [This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited March 02, 2001).]

I didn't say the idea was perfect. It was something off the top of my head. I prefer inland sea parks, easier to defend. I wish SMACX came with the ability to plant sensors in the sea, instead of using that watertech mod for smac.

NS
[This message has been edited by NorthSwordsman (edited March 02, 2001).]

[Kinjiru]

It could be somewhat cost effective, if you are planning on building a navy anyway, and you are on a huge map, and your sea park is far away from your bases.

If your trawlers have a long way to go to get to the park, then you don't simply have the cost of rebuilding a trawler to think about, but the lost opportunity cost as well. If you don't want to go all out for defense in depth, then you could try a Maginot Line defense. Use a single line of armored foils, staggered back and forth, with maybe a few more held in reserve to plug any holes that appear.

There is no good method for defending at sea in this game. Period. This is just a suggestion for how to go about attempting to protect some sea assets, if you are so inclined.

Besides which, if I were going to attack your sea park, then I would not simply go in a beat up all your trawlers, I would keep a few units in the area so that when you bring over some more trawlers, I can kill them as well. Essentially the tactic would be to deny you the use of the sea park (and perhaps use it myself). If you are not going to attempt any kind of defense for your sea park, then you are leaving yourself open to this kind of tactic.

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by Kinjiru on 03-02-2001 10:11 AM There is no good method for defending at sea in this game. Period. This is just a suggestion for how to go about attempting to protect some sea assets, if you are so inclined.

Then the best way to do this is just create an inland sea with a base, and use that. Hmm.. good points there, Kin. Thanks!

NS

[TigToad]

A couple things... first off my opinion is while building a full blown land energy park is fun, I never do it. It takes too many resources to get it going and its kinda boring to do after you've done it once. I strongly prefer building sea crawlers and harvesting that way. Especially in SMAX when you can build a thermocline.

Second, it is quite possible to win a game without a crawler unit ever being built on transcend. In fact, long ago, before I found this forum I did it regularly. I just didn't transcend often. IMO, the easiest way to beat the AI is to grab Lal, the Empath guild and when you get that late game project, just name yourself supreme ruler. The upside to this is you get to conquer quite a few bases on your way to the top.

As for energy parks, you are going to go gung ho and build on, practice on a level or two lower than transcend first. Second, make sure you grab the merchant exchange (very useful for this), the Weather Paradigm (all that forming) and the Human Genome (unless you're lal, you need this to run free market early, IMO--and I LOVE running free market early and often).

Tig

[Misotu]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with Tig. Land energy parks are very pretty the first few times - but painfully slow to build. Why bother? Take SMAX, thermocline and the Merchant, run FM/Wealth and then just crawler that energy in from the sea ...

In MP, I often build small energy parks, however. But I don't crawler them. I build a base in the middle of the park and harvest it with workers. Given a global trade pact, (crawlered energy doesn't count towards trade income) you will *coin* it in And you don't have crawlers sitting there waiting to be bombed.

By the time you have built a decent remote energy park in MP, your opposition has a satellite and is on the way to wreak havoc ...

[Thantos]

Something that I have found that helps my sea crawler programs is equiping them with deep radar and creating a more spread out park program with the distance of initial solar panel placement being just one square shy of my formers max range. This gives me a rather broad view of the ocean and forces him to spend much longer playing hide and go seek against my trawlers.

[Rastapopoulos]

As for the discussion about defending energy parks (by the way, I never build them on land, too much hassle, and the only thing I ever form on the sea is harnesses and farms, as many as I can):
I must say, I'm usually quite happy when an enemy attacks my crawlers/trawlers/formers. Unless he does it with a chopper, I can kill his foil or needlejet with one of my Interceptors that I have for the purpose and make him loose an expensive military unit for a cheap crawler that I can easily replace. I've seen quite a few players (especially AI, but even humans) waiste away large portions of their airforce or navy this way while I was thinking: keep going, I like it...
So besides giving you energy, these parks can be excellent bait for overzealous killers of any kind.
Only trouble remain the natives of course.


------------------
May the fungus be with you...

[Googlie]

If you have built an energy park a little known or discussed fact is that you can double a bunker on your solar array, then put armor on your crawlers - they get both the armor bonus and the bunker bonus on defense.

(And, of course, if you build your crawlers at a base with a Command Center and a Bio Center, your crawlers will be Commando, with an additional 37.5% defense bonus(

You can make them pretty hard to take out.

Now you can station an AAA or SAM unit there too, and just watch the AI knock their heads agaisnt your defenses.

[Kinjiru]

Geez Googlie, don't give away everything! We might have to face these guys in MP on day!! *grin*