February 9, 2003, 15:57
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#1
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Settler
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 25
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Declare war, enter enemy territory on same turn = OK ?
Alright, I know that if you have troops within another civ's border and declare war, your actions will definitely be looked upon poorly by other civs (ie. they may be more likely to declare war on you, or less likely to engage in a MPP or ROP, etc ... saying things like "We remember what you did to the British")
Anyways, my question is this: If you have troops outside a civ's border, declare war, and then move them in on the same turn, will the same repurcusions occur?
I am certain that you can declare war and move troops in on a subsequent, turn without triggering a negative world opinion... but on the same turn?
I'm thinking that the only trigger is declaring war while your own troops are within your soon-to-be enemy's borders... but I am wondering if any of you guys know for sure.
thanks!
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February 9, 2003, 17:52
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#2
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Deity
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
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I think it is OK to enter after the DoW. In fact, I'm sure of it.
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February 9, 2003, 18:22
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#3
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Settler
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 25
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Cool, thanks.
But if the whole world wants my head on a pike after I do it, I'm gonna tell 'em it was cuz you said so !
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February 9, 2003, 22:29
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#4
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
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Declaring war and then attacking is "good" for the international civ community; but ...
Declaring war, and then allowing the enemy to attack YOUR country is "better" for your NATIONAL community, i.e., your own citizens. Less war weariness and the opportunity to trigger MPPs.
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JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
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February 9, 2003, 22:33
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#5
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Settler
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 25
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Jaybe
Declaring war, and then allowing the enemy to attack YOUR country is "better" for your NATIONAL community, i.e., your own citizens. Less war weariness and the opportunity to trigger MPPs.
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By "your country" do you mean an actual city, or can it be a troop that they attack?
If it can be a troop, then that's almost too easy, as I can simply dangle a single unit, allow it to be slaughtered, and then benefit from not being the 'first-to-attack'.
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February 9, 2003, 22:55
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#6
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Chieftain
Local Time: 11:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 79
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I'm not sure about the war weariness aspects of that, but MPPs are triggered if an AI civilization attacks one of your cities or one of your troops that is in your own or neutral territory. If your troops are in enemy territory when they get hit, it won't trigger MPPs. Also, if an AI civ declares on you and then moves a lot of troops into your territory, even if they don't attack immediately, I believe that usually triggers MPPs as well.
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KoH
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquistive idiots."
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February 10, 2003, 00:50
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#7
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Emperor
Local Time: 11:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
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Okay, I'm suffering a memory loss here...MPPS?
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February 10, 2003, 01:14
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#8
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Deity
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
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Mutual Protection Pacts.
Quote:
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Also, if an AI civ declares on you and then moves a lot of troops into your territory, even if they don't attack immediately, I believe that usually triggers MPPs as well.
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Ahh, no. The only way for the MPP to be triggered is if an attack takes place. Bombardment of tile improvements counts as an attack.
He moves into your territory, you can attack those attacking units and wipe them to the last man without triggering his MMPs. If those units harm a hair on a worker's head in your territory that triggers all of your MPPs.
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February 10, 2003, 02:36
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#9
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Villain
By "your country" do you mean an actual city, or can it be a troop that they attack?
If it can be a troop, then that's almost too easy, as I can simply dangle a single unit, allow it to be slaughtered, and then benefit from not being the 'first-to-attack'.
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Yes, dangle the unit or especially a worker. I intend to dangle an Elite Cossack in about 4 turns, myself (I have MAs).
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February 10, 2003, 03:53
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#10
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 121
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First, let me clarify the MPP issue, as noone of the previous posters has got it quite right yet (notyoueither was close, but forgot the second point below):
You will trigger a MPP that the enemy has with a third civ by:
1) Attacking an enemy unit/city/tile that is inside his own territory.
This includes bombardment, but note that you may attack/bombard enemy units that are inside your teritory or in no-mans-land or a third civ's territory without triggering the MPP.
2) Ending your turn with a unit inside the enemy's borders.
Regarding WW - I'm pretty sure that WW is
not affected by who attacks first, but it is affected by who declares the war. I.e., you get more WW if you declare the war than if the enemy declares it, but the first attack doesn't matter anymore than later attacks.
And finally, to the original question: Yes, you may attack the same turn without any rep hit (at least without any more rep hits than declaring war and attacking the next turn would give you).
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February 10, 2003, 08:37
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#11
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Prince
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: of Old Europe
Posts: 341
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another point about war weariness: if its your enemy who declares war you even get a period of reversed ww where your people become happy for some turns
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February 10, 2003, 11:55
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#12
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Settler
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 25
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Quote:
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Originally posted by theNiceOne
And finally, to the original question: Yes, you may attack the same turn without any rep hit (at least without any more rep hits than declaring war and attacking the next turn would give you).
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Just so I'm 100% clear on this (and ignoring any MPP issues):
I have a unit inside enemy territory and I then declare war -- I will take a rep hit.
I have a unit just outside enemy territory. I declare war, and on that turn I move him in. -- I will NOT take a rep hit (ie. Civs will not say "We remember what you did to so-and-so" and they will not think I'm a back-stabbing jerk)
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February 10, 2003, 14:07
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#13
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Prince
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: of Central Texas
Posts: 561
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Villain
Just so I'm 100% clear on this (and ignoring any MPP issues):
I have a unit inside enemy territory and I then declare war -- I will take a rep hit.
I have a unit just outside enemy territory. I declare war, and on that turn I move him in. -- I will NOT take a rep hit (ie. Civs will not say "We remember what you did to so-and-so" and they will not think I'm a back-stabbing jerk)
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You are correct, Sir!
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February 11, 2003, 09:39
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#14
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Emperor
Local Time: 18:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Villain
Just so I'm 100% clear on this (and ignoring any MPP issues):
I have a unit inside enemy territory and I then declare war -- I will take a rep hit.
I have a unit just outside enemy territory. I declare war, and on that turn I move him in. -- I will NOT take a rep hit (ie. Civs will not say "We remember what you did to so-and-so" and they will not think I'm a back-stabbing jerk)
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hi ,
you will take the rep hit , but hey , that is how the AI does it half of the time , .....
its really intresting to use it , .... (!)
surprise , surprise
have a nice day
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February 13, 2003, 11:34
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#15
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King
Local Time: 12:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
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Quote:
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Originally posted by theNiceOne
First, let me clarify the MPP issue, as noone of the previous posters has got it quite right yet (notyoueither was close, but forgot the second point below):
You will trigger a MPP that the enemy has with a third civ by:
1) Attacking an enemy unit/city/tile that is inside his own territory.
This includes bombardment, but note that you may attack/bombard enemy units that are inside your teritory or in no-mans-land or a third civ's territory without triggering the MPP.
2) Ending your turn with a unit inside the enemy's borders.
Regarding WW - I'm pretty sure that WW is
not affected by who attacks first, but it is affected by who declares the war. I.e., you get more WW if you declare the war than if the enemy declares it, but the first attack doesn't matter anymore than later attacks.
And finally, to the original question: Yes, you may attack the same turn without any rep hit (at least without any more rep hits than declaring war and attacking the next turn would give you).
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This is NOT true. A MPP can ONLY be triggered by an attack in enemy lands . I KNOW this from experience. In a game long ago both Russia and myself had MPPS with most of the civ's in the game, we were the dominant civ's but whoever triggerd the MPP's would lose because the rest of the world would enter the war against the offender. I declared War on the Russians, Landed 100+ units with an amphib invasion ended my turn WITHOUT attacking. NO MPPS WERE TRIGGERED. the next turn Russia attacked a destroyer on my coastline and they became the CIV 3 equivelent of Iraq. (with no French to bail their a$$es out.)
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February 14, 2003, 04:17
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#16
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 121
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What can I say, except that I have triggered MPPs by ending my turn with one military unit inside the enemy borders without any attacking. So there must be something else that attacking that traiggers an MPP.
I see now that I was a bit unclear in my previous post. What I meant is that an MPP is triggered if the entire game turn is ended while you have a unit inside the enemy's borders.
So Mad Bomber: Are you 100% sure that the Russians didn't attack you on the same turn that you entered their territory?
I.e:
1) During your turn you enter Russian territory.
2) During the Russian turn they attack you and trigger the MPP.
3) The game turn ends, and now your units would have triggered the MPP if Russia had not already done so.
__________________
If you cut off my head, what do I say?
Me and my body, or me and my head?
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February 14, 2003, 10:41
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#17
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King
Local Time: 12:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
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So if you have an enemy unit in your territory for an entire turn it triggers an MPP??.... very interesting.... I will have to give this some further study. Of course, how often do you declare war and the AI does not attack you? This could be useful info for MP however.
__________________
* A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
* If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
* The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
* There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.
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February 14, 2003, 12:07
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#18
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Prince
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: of Central Texas
Posts: 561
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mad Bomber
So if you have an enemy unit in your territory for an entire turn it triggers an MPP??....
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This is apparently correct. I was just playing as the Vikings, I had an MPP w/ the Babs and declared war on the Iroquois. The Iroquois unit moved toward one of my injured units, but never attacked. After he was in my territory for 1 turn, the Babs declared war on them.
I thought that 'fighting' of some sort had to take place to trigger MPP's, but I guess not. Perhaps just the presence of troops is an 'act of war'.
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February 14, 2003, 21:14
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#19
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
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I do not believe this is true. Testing is in order, but from personal experience fighting is required.
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