Thwarting the pillagers.

[Sperricles]

PURPOSE/CONTEXT

This thread is to be dedicated to finding solutions for facing those irritatingly paralyzing "Pillager Civs". This will obviously pertain primarily to the MP environment since the AI pales in comparison to the pillaging fury of other civ strategists. As advocated in previous threads by MP theorists such as Friedrich Psitalon and myself...one should bear in mind a scenario of tiny/small maps, 1-4 hour games, and tech that rarely but occasionally reaches middle ages, and a much stronger defense than you would prepare for an AI.


WHO ARE THOSE MASKED MEN?

Ok....so who are the civs that pillage and plunder well enough to make measley barbarians wander shamefully back to their little huts? I propose a top 5 here but make clear delineation that the top 3 are -- by far -- the most brutal.

1. Zulu
2. Aztec
3. Carthage
-----------
4. Babylon
5. Greek


IMPI ARE NO IMPS

Though I would contend that they may not have "invented" the pillage-and-run tactic...they certainly "perfected" it. This light speed spearman fears little and respects even less. He will even nestle himself right next to your center city square and pillage with reckless abandon...almost daring you to attack him, because with a defense of 2 and a potential retreat you probably wont kill him, and may lose your unit and the pillaged land in the process. And if your city has not culturally expanded at least once, you wont even see him coming (even if you have enlarged once, if he picks those diagonals he may still come unseen) He is likely to move in right at the end of the turn, so it will be too late to attack him until the start of the next, by which time he can pillage and still have 1 movement left for retreat.

It will take 1 tech advance for him to start building his impi, but he will probably have a cheap barracks built while he waits, meaing now you are dealing with veterans who have an even better shot at winning battles and retreating. Don't forget either that his military characteristic is also gonna promote those veterans to elites more than you would like to think. Beware too because after he pillages your iron mountain (if you let him get there) he can and will fortify right on it to avoid the need for future pillages.

Defensively, he is incredible. Zulu are one of the only civs that can spread cities pretty wide to make sure each city is on a hill for a defensive bonus while avoiding overlaps, and claiming wide expanses only to fill in the gaps later. This is because an impi on roads gets 6 movement....ie those two neighbor zulu cities in the distance WILL have reinforcements arriving at the city your attacking, the very turn you first come into sight. And if you try to straddle and switch between cities he will still make it back and forth to thwart your efforts, while his slower swordsmen make their way to counter-attack your invaders. Ooh, wait a minute...I forgot..his scouts and impi en route to pillage are probably gonna see you long before your attack arrives so the odds of getting to surprise him...are slim at best.


JAGS...THE TRUE INVENTORS

Yes, it was the jaguars who first invented pillage-and-run (since they dont even need bronze working to start it). Also a military civ, veteran jags will not take long and may even be all you ever see. For the price of 1 impi, there will be 2 jags, and if your an unforunate neighbor, you will see them earlier (first 10 turns) when you are weaker and may have to choose between defending your improvements or losing your city if two show up.

But unlike Impi, the jags' achilles heel of a 1 defense, means they are definately killable (even with a simple warrior). The fear of the aztec swarm diminishes with time (which is why I claim that the zulu perfected the pillage-and-run) The two jags vs one impi is also a double edged sword, since building that early swarm of jags, is likely to start eating maintenance money at an extrememly early stage.

In the long run...jags will become expensive: both in terms of maintenance and shields represented by dead jags. But hopefully they have crippled you enough by then to have out-expanded you (an important point many pillagers overlook...the true value of pillaging is slowing their expansion, while increasing yours). But if early on, you find a jag neighbor (or more appropriately...he finds you), you better buckle up and be ready to fight tooth and nail for everthing you have.


MERCENARIES THAT PILLAGE....HMMM....MAKES SENSE

I once laughed when someone told me that Carthage was a pillaging civ. Friedrich helped me wise up before my laughter would have turned to tears.

No, Numidian Mercenaries are not as fast as Impi or Jags, but they are a lot harder to peel off because of their 3 defense. More importantly, they are harder to peel off because their 2 attack will kill warriors, archers, and even unfortunate chariots and horsemen that get too close (this means that these units might lose the ability to retreat if they space far enough to avoid being attacked). Injured numidians can heal on nearby mountains and still probably fend off many of the scavengers you send after em while they heal. And their industrious roads, will make the path to pillaging you faster and faster as time goes on.



THE POOR MAN'S MERCENARY

Babylonian Bowmen follow the Carthage plan except that they lack the quick roads, and the extra defense.


HELMET, SHIELD, ARMOR, AND squirtgun

Hoplite aka 'hops too lightly' is derived from the fact that despite their hulking defense, their attack is just too light to pillage. These slow units can be stopped by placing a mere warrior to defend your tile. A 20-shield hoplite is probably not gonna hop its way into even odds agasint a 10-shielder. Greeks may be able to pull it off if they send a good attacker to help...but now it's getting pretty expensive to pillage. Greek pillages work at best against people who do not expect it..but will be very shortlived against experienced players.

[Sperricles]

SO....HOW DO YOU STOP EM?

The strategies I see most often fall into one of the following categories in no order of importance:

1. Fight fire with fire!
2. Build a blockade!
3. Set checkpoints to see em coming!
4. Dig in and attack everything you see!
5. Keep your cities close
6. Surrender


FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE

If you are a pillager yourself this may work well. Pillage them harder than they pillage you, and they may try someone easier. This does not seem to work as well for slow civs pitted against zulu/aztecs though because they can simply get more pillagers to you faster.



BUILD A BLOCKADE

It almost seems intuitive...right? Well...maybe. If you do build it, the pillagers have succeeded in taking you off of expansion. The pillagers may move on, content with the fact that you forked out shields on 6 extra units living in fear of only 1-2 impi (since the others move on or go home to defend). Then again, the pillager may just send attackers to breach the weakest part of the wall. Then again, they may just move their focus to attacking that city that is part of your border, since so many of your units are NOT defending your cities. Worst of all, those bloodthirsty scoundrels might build boats and go right around your wall. A warrior blockade against aztecs is cheap though...with a good attacker to grab the occasional breaches.

Another version of the blockade is to place units to defend the tiles themselves. This may be more practical when there is not an easy neck of land to seal off. Placing warriors is helpful against the zulu/aztecs..but you will need spearmen against num mercs. Again, with each tile it can get costly...but it may be warranted if you are just having too much trouble keeping the roads to your strategic resources connected. In this case, it can be considered an investment that will give you units to fight back with.



SET CHECKPOINTS TO SEE EM COMING

A few warriors on the right mountains and hills may help...heck, if the land is right maybe even an oupost. (did I just say that?) This will help a little to give warning and is pretty cheap too..but may be too late for those who fall under early seige.


DIG IN AND ATTACK EVERYTHING YOU SEE

Build those barracks and attack them b4 they can pillage you...grit your teeth and make it hurt for them... maybe they'll look for someone else who is unprepared.



KEEP YOUR CITIES CLOSE

This is merely to give them less room to roam and pillage and to let neighbor cities help in the extermination of the invaders.


SURRENDER?

An option that seems to happen all to often. Looking a little deeper though, this could be reinterpreted to mean: concede that they could pillage every last tile you own, but give them incentive not to. Become their friend. Offer an alliance. Supply them with luxury goods. Tell them where someone easier to pillage is. They may not take your offer...but its worth a try.


OK...These are strategies I have seen and tried. I welcome other ideas...and specifically if anyone can recommend civs that are good at thwarting the pillagers. I look forward to your comments.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Sperricles, I'm hitting you for copyright infringement- your style is dangerously close to mine. :P

Hehe.

I agree pretty much entirely with your analysis of the effectiveness/dangers of the pillager Civs... don't forget Egypt as a potential sleeper civ for pillaging. A fast location of horses gives you 2/1/2s for cheap... and if you are suckered into attacking one and lose...well, that's all Egypt needs to build dozens of the things and then show up at your front door; but not looking to pillage anymore....


On to the tactics themselves.

Fight fire with fire:
If you're a pillager Civ, by all means. This will distract the pillager player to homeland defense (ew, did I just use that phrase?) and probably take a lot, if not all of the heat off you. Pillager players are not used to, and do NOT like counter-pressure early on. They like initiative. Even sending a token force can help - and odd as it may sound, make SURE they see you coming. You want distraction from being pillaged, after all. If you ARENT a pillager Civ.... this is probably bad advice. Roman pillagers? What, are you going to send a warrior? Pillager-players will have vets streaming down to pillage you... and just like a pebble in a stream, so shall your efforts be. Want to send a lot of units? Now you're playing the pillager Civ's game, but he's better at it. Back off, and stick to your strengths.

Build a blockade:
If you've got a two-square land bridge between the two of you, and they're both hills/mountains, slap a spear or two in there per square and rejoice. That's a solid block-move; by the time your pillager foe gets boats, you should be able to deal with any pillage threat. Don't be fooled into making 10-15 unit-long walls, though. I think it was Napolean who once had a general who proposed to defend France by spreading troops thinly all across the border.... Napolean replied (paraphrase) "What, are we going to protect France from bandits?" ....because a thinly spread force won't protect you from much else. Also, you're shelling out a lot of resources on defense and defense only- a partial win for the pillager; that's what he wants!

Set checkpoints to see them coming:
Absolutely! You should always do this for ANY situation. ALWAYS! With pillagers incoming, this is doubly important. You can usually predict where a pillager will hit first- they tend to come in a straight, fast line - and count out the turns and where he will be. Have something there to meet them when they arrive. Remember- if a unit moves two squares a turn they're moving into BLACK space each new turn; meaning, if you see them coming....you can set it up where they'll never know the ambush is there, until it's too late....

Dig in and attack everything you see:
Be *VERY* careful doing this. I would almost call this bad advice, in fact. What, you want to throw lots of units at a Num Merc? Hey, fine by me, chief. My 30 shields will eat 50-100 of yours before I'll go down; and that's if I don't go lurk on a hill/jungle/mountain square to rest and recoup. Impis will scoot out of range after taking damage, or lead you on a wild goose chase. Jags are cheap; they're reliable enough for beating warriors, and with their movement, they are likely to get the initiative on archers (if the Aztec player is any good, anyhow) meaning that the Jag will again, be fairly reliable, and if you send spears...well, 1 attack, 1 defense, the jag can probably choose their terrain for the fight...you do the math. If you MUST attack pillagers, do so with overwhelming force that allows you to immediately attack again if there IS a succesful retreat. But, again, you are playing dangerously close to the game the pillager-player wants. When you react to your opponent, rather than making them react to you.....

Keep your cities close
Good advice. Having multiple cities to rally counter-attackers out of is never a bad idea, but especially so when you might be able to catch a retreating unit with their guard down. It DOES also cut down on the number of "pillageable" squares, and again, allows you a better chance of responding. Hitting a side city that has one road leading to one city is not dangerous to a pillager. Walking into the center of a four-city cluster with roads all over the place and improvements only in the middle, on the other hand....

Surrender
Hmm. Don't use this one in a duel. :P In a massive MP game, however, this is good advice- if it benfits the pillager to leave you alone; they know they're strong early. Pay 'em off and get them to pillage someone else. Use that strength, rather than eat it. The only problem is that if you bribe them, and they take the bribe and then eat you anyhow....

Yar! Good advice. Is it time for me to switch Civs again, Sperricles? :P

[eloquence]

An effective tactic if you are being pillaged later in the game is to use catapults on defence to attack the pillager. This gives you at least a fighting chance against mercs. If you have about 4 cats you have a good shot at getting a merc down to 1 or 2 hit points and can finish them off.

My thought exactly. I usually go for iron working first then make my way to mathematics right after. I love picking apart a would be pillager with a couple of cats back by a defensive and offensive unit. This tactic is usually very effective. I've noticed that in MP if you bombard a unit and while in that same turn another unit attacks that stack, the cat will get another attack against the attacker. Fair? I don't know, but that is what I've noticed.

I usually don't share my tactics on here, as I like to deploy them on un-witting opponents, but I'll break my own rules here on this.

Bringing a cat or two along with a couple of defensive units a pretty good at pillaging also, just make sure to only do a few turns before a counter attack can be managed. Cats can pillage sqaures next to them, a pretty good way to handle things.