OFFICIAL: What to research after Writing?

Locutus · February 11, 2003, 19:36

We're 2 turns away from finishing Writing. What should we research next?

There are a total of 5 advances available as soon as Writing is completed, but the game gives us at most 4 options (at random AFAIK). So it may be possible that the winner of this poll is not actually a choice when the issue comes up in the game. In that case probably the runner-up will be researched. You're encouraged to post your vote in this thread and also (especially) what your second choice would be.

Drama gives us Theater and leads to Philosophy (and from there to Monarchy and Geometry). Jurispredence gives us ~~Chicken Pizza~~ Chichen Itza and Courthouse and leads to Trade (edit: and is eventually required for Monarchy as well - thanks for pointing that out MrBaggins). Stone Working gives us City Wall, Fortification and Pyramids (and leads to Masonry (Aquaduct, Great Wall)). Shipbuilding gives us Coracle and Nets and Slavery gives us Slavers and Mines.

Since the invention of Writing is still 2 turns away I can't say how many turns researching these advances will take so I listed the cost in science points instead, to give some idea on how 'expensive' these techs are compared to each other.

This poll will expire in 3 days (Fri 14 Feb, ~23:40 GMT)

mapfi · February 11, 2003, 20:04

I think Ship Building can easily be ruled out. Personally I'm divided between belining for monarchy, get stone working for city walls or slave labour. With decreasing likeliness. It rather depends on our future plans - aggressive attacking? Then stone working will be useless because we will concentrate on building units so go for monarchy asap or maybe slave labour. Securing defences - then so go for stone working. Building units like crazy but no plans for attacking anyone - go for slave labour.

I vote for the monarchy choice (drama) because quite frankly I don't see the WP giving our nation a rest.

HuangShang · February 11, 2003, 20:23

i voted for slavery, but monarchy is very enticing

Tamerlin · February 11, 2003, 20:41

Our nation needs a new government that will, at last, tend to the needs of our citizens. We must follow the path to Monarchy.

MrBaggins · February 11, 2003, 21:09

I understand that the APP is for permissiveness and lawlessness... and have to strongly disagree with their choice.

Jurisprudence is required for Monarchy... which would allow us to do something about the rampant lawlessness and the waste it causes... and leads us to the valuable Trade improvement allowing us to further develop our core cities, and provide us the opportunity to both develop our defence and push further on into Austria.

What use are theatres to make our citizens happy when 30% or more of their production is lost to crime. The APP are in favor of letting the criminals run riot, and then providing them with entertainment!

I feel that those who care to make such decisions should be better informed.

MrBaggins

HuangShang · February 11, 2003, 21:43

yeah so Jurisprudence was my second option

MrBaggins · February 11, 2003, 21:44

My second choice was Slave Labor

HuangShang · February 11, 2003, 21:54

well drama's winning, so i'd like to remind every one that it isnt the only prerequisite for monarchy and also that it will take too long!

Oerdin · February 11, 2003, 23:27

Monarchy

MrBaggins · February 11, 2003, 23:35

Duuuuhhh

There are two prequisites that we need for Monarchy... people.

You can either choose the hippy peacenik route and go with Drama... and get a +1 happiness improvement... or the Jurisprudence route and reduce the crippling 30% crime rate...

Select below to see a spoiler:

Spoiler:

MrBaggins

mapfi · February 12, 2003, 02:34

nah, who's not telling the whole truth here? Our fellow WP spokesman, MrBaggins. You just want to go for iron works to get Samurai for an attacking army and for that you need trade.

Actually, it doesn't make much of a difference if we choose drama or juridprudence. We're not going to build either courthouses (27% crime instead of 30%, come on!) or theaters, nor are we needing any roads in the short run. So it mostly depends on what choice we're presented with and how many turns to get it. I'd still prefer drama because I want to avoid having an arguement about the line to Monarchy each time.

Gilgamensch · February 12, 2003, 04:40

Haven't changed my mind:

We need the tools to convince our rebellious brother's and sister's to work for us. Therefore I have choosen Slavery.

Just think of what we already missed *whine*.

We could have already convinced them quite a long time ago. But it looks like, that people here do not care about our misleaded fellowers............

Locutus · February 12, 2003, 05:41

(Hmm, how did I overlook that Trade prerequisite for Philosophy?

)

I think we all agree that with 5 cities under our control and crime running rampant, it's imperative that we get to Monarchy very soon (the only possible arguments to not beeline for it ASAP could be City Walls and Slavers/Mines).

So the question is, should we research Drama or Jurisprudence/Trade first? Let's look at the advances available:

Drama is the most expensive advance in this list, so in that respect it would be best to wait a while and let our cities grow before starting on it: then we can finish it all the sooner next time around. The Theater building it enables isn't particularly useful: we need to pump out units right now, Theaters aren't very useful when you're dead. However, Drama does enable Entertainers as well. That could be a major advantage in keeping the happiness in our new cities in check without forcing us to sacrifice the economic strength of the older ones.

Jurisprudence is the cheapest of the advances required for Monarchy, so in that sense it would be logical to pick it up now: then we can reap its advantages ASAP. On the other hand, the only things it enables are Chichen Itza and Courthouse, neither of which is very helpful right now (A wonder is the last thing we should be building right now and: -3 Crime or 2 Hoplites? Not a very tough choice if you ask me...)

Trade is about equally expensive as Drama, so in that sense it might be good to wait a while before starting it, but fortunately it has Jurisprudence as prerequisite so we couldn't start it now if we wanted to. It offers Via Appia, Bazaar, Caravans and Roads. Building Via Appia or a Bazaar is a bad idea (see Chichen Itza/Courthouse). Caravans are very useful to have and enable the 3rd part of my job (

) but at this time we probably won't get much of a chance to build them anyway. Roads however *are* useful: we have some PW to spend and our lines to the battlefield could in some cases be shorter than they currently are.

There's one other thing to consider, possibly more important than all of the above: in our quest for Monarchy, the list of advances we get to choose from isn't always complete. Right now we have 5 advances that are researchable but only 4 will be available. If we research Drama now, it could well be that Jurisprudence isn't an option the next time we have to choose an advance. However, if we go for Jurisprudence now, we'll have the choice between Jurisprudence and Drama next time. It's unlikely that both will be unavailable.

So based on all this, I'd say go for Jurisprudence first (cheap, gives us more options next time) and, if possible, Trade after that (Roads are the only actual benefit at this point). But I still believe Slavery is a very important advance as well, so I'm tied between Jurisprudence and Slave Labour. I voted for the former but I may yet change my mind...

mapfi · February 12, 2003, 06:24

Jee, forgot the entertainers - that's a big arguement for drama, but so is the one about the 4 choices Loc - now I am glad I voted already and don't have to decide again...

J Bytheway · February 12, 2003, 09:43

Jurisprudence, secondly drama.

Tamerlin · February 12, 2003, 09:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
What use are theatres to make our citizens happy when 30% or more of their production is lost to crime. The APP are in favor of letting the criminals run riot, and then providing them with entertainment!

I feel that those who care to make such decisions should be better informed.

You should remember MrBaggins that the choice of the APP was Slave Labor instead of writing because we thought we would need mines to increase our production rate. The citizens have chosen Writing in order to reach Monarchy as soon as possible and I think it would be ridiculous to research Slave Labor now that we have delayed it for Writing and Monarchy.

If the citizens are about to chose Slave Labor, we should better change the advance researched now and opt for Writing next.

Martin Gühmann · February 12, 2003, 13:07

Well in order to get Trade that allows us to build roads and allows us to reasearch Philosophy a preriquisite for Monarchy, I go for Jurisprudence. My second choice is Drama as it is needed for Philosphy.

-Martin

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 13:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin

You should remember MrBaggins that the choice of the APP was Slave Labor instead of writing because we thought we would need mines to increase our production rate. The citizens have chosen Writing in order to reach Monarchy as soon as possible and I think it would be ridiculous to research Slave Labor now that we have delayed it for Writing and Monarchy.

If the citizens are about to chose Slave Labor, we should better change the advance researched now and opt for Writing next.

We've virtually finished researching Writing. Perhaps the APP should consider moderating its drug usage

Tamerlin · February 12, 2003, 14:16

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
We've virtually finished researching Writing. Perhaps the APP should consider moderating its drug usage

You have perfectly understood what I meant.

If the citizens vote for Slavery as the next research, it would be much wiser to change our current research for Slavery now and research Writing next.

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 14:23

Its already been voted on... and Writing was decided upon.

The question at hand is... What to research AFTER WRITING?

It says nothing about changing from writing to slave labor.

Tamerlin · February 12, 2003, 14:32

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Its already been voted on... and Writing was decided upon.

The question at hand is... What to research AFTER WRITING?

It says nothing about changing from writing to slave labor.

I know, I know, this is only a part of my original argumentation in favor of Drama and against Slavery.

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 14:45

What IS your point? Your drug induced reasoning eludes me

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 14:56

Oh.. btw... forgot to elucidate my earlier point.

When I was thinking Jurisprudence, I was thinking that we should make a run at Chichen Itza... it should be our first wonder:

30% crime reduction, improving everything...

The happiness related wonders are basically unnecessary- even the Appian way, considering that we are on a continent... don't plan on very expansive war and can build roads soon enough.

Pyramids might be nice, but Chichen Itza is more valuable.

Our city placement is way better than the AI's so we have a shot at completing it first... especially given the AI's neurotic production changes.

MrBaggins

Martin Gühmann · February 12, 2003, 15:43

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Oh.. btw... forgot to elucidate my earlier point.

When I was thinking Jurisprudence, I was thinking that we should make a run at Chichen Itza... it should be our first wonder:

30% crime reduction, improving everything...

The happiness related wonders are basically unnecessary- even the Appian way, considering that we are on a continent... don't plan on very expansive war and can build roads soon enough.

Pyramids might be nice, but Chichen Itza is more valuable.

Our city placement is way better than the AI's so we have a shot at completing it first... especially given the AI's neurotic production changes.

MrBaggins

Actual happiness wonders are not unnecessary. The Ramajana for instance gives us 3 happiness points extra in every city that would be 3 extra cities over the limit or we can squeeze our citiziens better and max out the sliders longer. I tested the game long enough and the AI that got the Ramajana got a lead. So if we build a wonder then it should be the Ramajana and that should we do as soon as possible, otherwise we will see that all the AIs will build all the wonders before us around turn 100.

-Martin

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 15:58

Which assumes space to develop that we don't have, and that we won't have access to Monarchy, which we will...

We are on a course of slow acquisition and very slight expansion. We don't have the capability to do anything else.

By the time we hit the empire size cap, we'll be in a Monarchy already

It would be useful to get a headstart on the AI now... the generic production bonus of reducing crime will enable us to outperform the AI to techs AND wonders.

Chichen Itza will be useful now... and in the future... plus we can change production of the wonder without penalty... so there is plenty of space for a later decision.

My bet is that we will be below the max empire size, when Ramajana is finished, and will be close to Monarchy. So... no significant benefit.

Martin Gühmann · February 12, 2003, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Chichen Itza will be useful now... and in the future... plus we can change production of the wonder without penalty... so there is plenty of space for a later decision.

My bet is that we will be below the max empire size, when Ramajana is finished, and will be close to Monarchy. So... no significant benefit.

There is no space for a later decission, the AI will have build all the wonders then. And there are not only the Austrians also the Germans, the Thais, teh Scottish,... And all of them will build a wonder, so if we want the Ramajana or anything else then we have to build it now.

-Martin

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 16:54

Right, but there is no point in building a wonder to solve a problem we don't have. We need to have as big a gain in science, in any way possible. Additional cities certainly help, but making our existing cities more productive will help more...

I'm not saying don't build Ramajana, I'm saying build Chichen Itza first.

Maquiladora · February 12, 2003, 17:10

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
...The happiness related wonders are basically unnecessary...

You really need to play more SAP...

Back on topic: I voted fot Jurisprudence, towards Monarchy.

MrBaggins · February 12, 2003, 17:21

Do the math:

As long as a city isn't rioting, it produces science.

We don't have any issue keeping even captured cities out of rioting, due to martial law (until conquest distress decays,) at this stage.

The 'bonus' we'd gain from Ramajana is +3% general production through reduced crime.

The 'bonus' we'd gain through Chichen Itza is +10% under Tyranny and +7% under Monarchy.

If we can get to Monarchy within a short duration of the AI's, plus have Chichen Itza, and start to develop domestically, in H Town and Pedrunnia, then we can start to actually race the AI viably in science.

Ramajana and Chichen Itza are both good in that they both don't become obsolete. I believe, however, in prioritizing, its important that we go for advantages that help NOW... especially in a science sense.

MrBaggins

Martin Gühmann · February 12, 2003, 17:22

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Right, but there is no point in building a wonder to solve a problem we don't have. We need to have as big a gain in science, in any way possible. Additional cities certainly help, but making our existing cities more productive will help more...

I'm not saying don't build Ramajana, I'm saying build Chichen Itza first.

Well I just did a test game on a random map with a lot of land and ten civs. I played the Barbarians, the wonder race started on turn 78 with the Ramajana. The odd thing was that the Ramajana was build on turn 125, that's a litte bit late in my opion that means 47 turns were needed to complete this wonder, in other games it was done earlier by the AIs. So if we want a wonder we have to start it in the next 20 or 30 turns otherwise we can forget it, it is not likely that we will get a big amount of gold for rush buying it. So as long as we do not decide to block the queues of two cities with wonders, we will only be able to build one wonder, as the Chichen Itza was completed one turn earlier, and some more wonders are build in the following turns.

-Martin