Why are Alien Factions so Weak?

[knowhow2]

I don't you what you people out there thinks but I think the Aliens Factions are to weak. Okey, maybe they get a better start than humans, but they seldom build SP before you besides from maybe the first 3-4 ones. And like the other AI factions just plain stupid from time to time. I want more challenge!

For the record: I play mostly on the transcend and wins most of time, with or without alien factions.

[cbn]

For a challenge in single player, try any number of the scenarios or challenges that are around. Another way is to self handicap-- My SP games now are all random faction, double blind, transcend, random map and I do not permit myself to mind control enemy bases and units. I have also tinkered with playing without crawlers but find it somewhat unnatural. Of course for the ultimate challenge you can enjoy multiplayer such as our current game (perhaps I will get crushed but its fun to start the game thinking that there is a reasonable opportunity you might lose).

As to the Aliens, I believe that thay are rightfully excluded from most MP games since the early start can be a killer. The extra pod and free rec tanks alone are huge, let alone the ogre. I agree that the AI does not seem to play them particularly well but I think the true test of an alien faction is how they would fare under the control of a good human player. I believe the huge start and advantages given the aliens would be overwhelming in a MP game.

Aliens as a weak faction -- not really
AI as Actually Inept -- that I can accept

[knowhow2]

Maybe I didn't made myself clear. I didn't mean that there isn't ANY scenarios that wouldn't be a challenge. What I meant was that I am disappointed with how badly the AI performs despite this gigantic advantage at start. Maybe you could edit it so they could be even more powerful?

Any advise, anyone?

cbn, surely I am not that good a player when it comes to facing the unpredictable humans such as you (assuming that you are human). The AI always stop developing once you reach a certain point. Is there anyone who actually seen the AI win a AT victory?

[Solver]

There are several things to do for better challenge. First, play MP instead of SP, as humans aren't predictable. Second, just design some superior factions. Or, if you make the Alien factions immune to the Free Market penalty, that would make them much more powerful. That lets you run Free Market for all of the game, not having those terrible additional drones, and still raking in terrific amounts of energy, letting them rush buy and subvert easily. I think that the immunity to FM penalties is one of the best things you can give a faction.

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

wow. are we playing the same game here? cause iirc, most games i've played with aliens, marr always ics across the entire equator, and missile all opposition to death.

and that was only in librarian level

[Basil]

I know exactly what you mean, Knowhow2. In my first transcend SP game, the Usurpers, Caretakers, Morgans, and Believers were all on the southern continent while I (the Gaians) was alone on the northern continent (although Santiago tried to invade it from her island after a while). The Usurpers conquered the Caretakers while the Believers conquered the Morgans, then the Usurpers conquered almost all of the Believer bases except for a couple of tiny ocean bases. At their peak the Usurpers had 60+ bases, 55 techs, and 11-12 secret projects, including the Cloning Vats, and I was thinking that I was really in trouble. Then they just completely stalled, and I walked away with the game.

The trouble was (I figured out after the fact), that they were running fundy/planned. The fundy looks like it will slow down their research, but it's the planned that's the real killer - it means their efficiency is
-2. Many of those 60 bases were losing *all* their energy to inefficiency.

So the first thing I'd recommend doing to make the AI play the aliens less badly is to give them (both factions) Impunity to Planned. (This will look like ", IMPUNITY, Planned" in your usurper.txt and caretake.txt files.) That will mean they can run Planned and still have a 0 efficiency, which will help them in the mid-game. Impunity to Free Market is an excellent idea for factions like the Drones and the Angels, but it doesn't help with the aliens, because the aliens' Agenda of Planned means that they will never run Free Market.

The Usurpers already have 8 specials, which is the maximum a faction can have, so you will have to get rid of one of the existing specials to make room for the impunity.

[Blake]

Making aleins impunity to planed is a good idea!, it wouldn't increase there early game strength much but would keep them competitive longer. H'mniee should use green in favour of planned I think.

Something to drop would be there damn +25% bonus to attack/defense. Particulary because they also apply to Psi and PROBE combat. Unbalances the whole native warfare stuff imo.

I'm also trying to work out how to stop them using fundie, personally I would prefer if they used frontier (Marr) and Demo (H'mniee)

[vee4473]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist it any longer...Is english a second language for some of those who post here? Does anyone even try to put together an understandable sentence? Perhaps proof reading a post? I mean, really...

[Blake]

Hmmmmm. Didn't pay attention in english, and now it's coming back to haunt me!!! nooooooo!

Seriously, if it's important post I proof read it. If not, not. And if my spelling is an Atrocity then perhaps you should ask the UN to invoke 'sanctions'! Ha ha ha!

[Solver]

Marr is good, if not starting on a small continent.

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[knowhow2]

vee4473: "Lund, Sweden" what does that tell you, or maybe you re just another average american. "Sweden? Is it in Texas?"

[Solver]

You could still change the alien agenda to Market.

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[Lord Maxwell]

It's not such a huge surprise that the AI is pretty weak, it wasn't exactly revolutionary when it arrived on the market, and now it has a few years on it.

But next time you want to enjoy a civ game for a long time, never visit Apolyton. Before I started reading these forums I occasionally lost a librarian game, these days I don't lose normal transcend games. (And have completed a few, but far from all, of the really hard scenarios that the wicked people here think up.) I figure that I would have become better even without reading Apolyton, but I don't think I would be even close to the level of skill that I have today without it.

The AI doesn't really search for optimal solutions, it has too little time, too bad algorithms, and almost all it does is invoking premade scripts.

The worst part is that it terraforms like a drunken monkey, totally killing it's own production. Then to add insult to injury it builds so many troops that the city has no mineral income any more. And then it doesn't understand the joys of clean reactors...

[Blake]

Give AI's free clean reactors, free Tree Farms (with pre-req), free fusion labs (with pre-req) and on transcend they should almost give a human player a challenge, main problem with AI is they don't build enough infrastructure and they eat up their minerals with support. And the AI wont have too much early game crushing power because they are drip-fed advantages over the game, rather than getting a massive starting advantage.

And seeing AI's don't research the neural amp tech line much, maybe move clean to superconductor, OR, just start the buggers with Bio-engineering. (nightmares about bases with 150 garrisons) OR just share the BE tech freely once you get it.

[vee4473]

Hey "knowhow2"...

I wasn't refering to you that much... I would have thought that it was obvious that I was refering to those who should have a better grasp at how to put together a decent sentence in the english language. I was refering more to "its like that" from san francisco, and also to many, many other posts in other threads...which i'm sure other people have noticed as well if they cruise these forums enough. It was just something I felt like pointing out...sorry. (Although, maybe everybody uses some secret Alpha Centauri code language that I don't fully understand...my codebook hasn't arrived yet.)

And, by the way, why must you insult and put me down? Why?? Do you think the average American is stupid? and doesn't know where Sweden is? I love the way most of the world criticizes and thinks americans are rude and self-centered, yet YOU attacked ME because I dared to post an opinion.
Come on now. Surely we can speak on a more mature level.

Please do not insult me as an American. I apologize if I angered you with my post.
I hope you understand if I ask for an apology for being called a stupid American. And if you choose not to apologize and attack me again instead, that's fine too...your colors are shining bright. I hope you're hostility doesn't represent the average Swedish citizen. I'm sure it doesn't.

[Solver]

LOL at you vee. At least, most people from America & Europe & Australia & wherever don't know where Latvia is.

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[knowhow2]

vee 4473

I have no reason to apologize to you. I wasn't offending you as person more than you are offending your fellow americans. Beside the average american doesn't know where Sweden is, and that is not just a presumption. Many americans have little or no knowledge about the world outside US. Maybe that 's just the way your culture works. Anyway, I just couldn't stand someone waltzing around thinking he is better than others.

Lord Maxwell,

"drunken monkey" - a good one.
[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 11, 2001).]

My english is that bad? Oh.. where'd I go wrong?

[Solver]

Knowhow2,
I am not offending you as a Swedish man, but I don't think you should speak like that about vee. There are many good people about the Americans, all in all, and offending his nation is not the best thing you can do. If you'd apologize, I would, in fact have your point of view here.

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[cbn]

Vee4473

You had to expect someone to push back if you criticize language skills. I have to confess that I do not understand the criticism of "its Like That"'s post in this thread. It is completely comprehensible if you understand the common abbreviations ICS (Infinite City Spread) and IIRC (If I Recall Correctly). If you don't know those,then the fault is yours and I think you should look at a recent thread on common abbreviations. Otherwise you will have a lot of problems understanding posts here.


And now to totally hijack this thread-- You wrap your apology in the assertion that the US has the most knowledge of other cultures of the world as it is made up of people from around the world. Well golly gee, so is Canada where I live. And omigosh Australia, and most of Europe have seen significant immigration leading to significant ethnic populations from all over the world. I'm not up on recent trends on the other continents so the same may or may not be true in a whole bunch of nations. Don't you see the fallacy in asserting a knowledge of the world because it is all within your own borders?

I do not U.S. bash or hold any negative feelings toward the U.S. as it is a powerful and I believe generally well intentioned democratic nation with generally well-intentioned people. But it is a fairly insular nation and this opinion comes from some personal experience. I have visited the U.S. and have had opportunities to meet and talk at reasonable length with people from about 25 different states from all regions. The lack of even basic knowledge about Canada was amazing to me and we are your northern neighbor and largest trading partner. Ignorance about Cuba (I've been there twice) was also astonishing.

In adition, about 70% of our TV channels are from the U.S. so I have a good sense of what the U.S. media reports . It is funny to watch the U.S. version of the "international news" and see that it is mainly made up of American stories such as where your president or secretary of State visited. Contrast that with the CBC or the BBC and you will discover that many major world events get scant notice from US media.

One last point is on your "burger and fries" comment. To think that Americans only eat burgers and fries is just as wrong as your seeming assumption that a Swedish person has never eaten them (I make no assumption either way). Do you not realize the pervasiveness of American business is such that a Big Mac is available in Beijing or Moscow? Do you not realize that places other than the U.S. have broad ethnic diversity?

None of this is meant as an attack on anyone and I hope this came across in the friendly tone that was intended. If you want to continue on this line in any length we should move to the off-topic threads.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

To get back on the thread topic.

I find that all the AI stall compared to a human player in the early mid-game. It seems that the AI does not appreciate the value of crawlers and relevant SE choices to the situation, regardless of faction. It is relatively easy to pull away and it is for thar reason that I rarely play a SP game to completion unless I have set some handicaps to make it interesting.

The title of the thread, though, related to the alien factions being weak. I cannot agree with this. I cannot recall an AI faction ever eradicating an alien faction. Often the aliens manage to get an early game position that, in the hands of a human, would be overwhelming. It just seems that the AI's general inability to plan strategically means that the Aliens cannot push their advantage. Thats why I felt that the problem is less the aliens than the AI.

On the question of alien weakness I would ask this question, Who would want to face the aliens in A MP when the aliens would be played by a competent human?? Right from the start the 3 pods and that battle ogre can be huge.


[This message has been edited by cbn (edited March 11, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by cbn (edited March 11, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

quote: Originally posted by It'sLikeThat on 03-10-2001 11:27 AM wow. are we playing the same game here? cause iirc, most games i've played with aliens, marr always ics across the entire equator, and missile all opposition to death. and that was only in librarian level

Vee4473:

I hate to wade into this, but I think this whole thing may be based on a misunderstanding. First off, nice apology. Shows true spirit. But I think your problem is not with poor writers of english, but with misunderstanding "smaceze"(the language of smac). If you understood It'sLikeThat's quote above, then I have misunderstood. Sorry.

I agree, its not great english, but about par for most of us, using this "reply to post interface", and the extreme lack of sleep from which most of us suffer. Your misunderstanding may be with the abbreviations. (See LoD's site for a great list, discussion thread here).

cause - Because
iirc - if I remember correctly
ics - infinite city sprawl, a stratagy which involves focussing on building lots of bases.

Note: ics could/should be the verb ics's or icses, but that may have been more confusing; missle should have been the verb missles.

When I read this, I skimmed it, understood it perfectly, and did not even notice the english. I guess that says a lot about how sick some of us are with "smacivitis"(smac sickness).

edit:

Crosspost with fellow Canuck, cbn.

Darn, Canadians. Always trying to be world peacekeepers.

[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited March 11, 2001).]

oh, you were referring to abbreviations? i thought i was in trouble, since i'm taking journalism.

[Basil]

quote: Originally posted by cbn on 03-11-2001 01:51 PM Vee4473 On the question of alien weakness I would ask this question, Who would want to face the aliens in A MP when the aliens would be played by a competent human?? Right from the start the 3 pods and that battle ogre can be huge.

Me, actually . I have played a two-player game where I won against the Usurpers playing the Gaians, and am currently playing a two-player game as Morgan against the Usurpers. The thing is that although the Usurpers have a very strong opening position and are perhaps the strongest pure momentum faction, they are terrible as a builder faction. So if you can force them into a game of competitive building... say you are lucky and they start on the opposite side of a huge world... you can beat them. Just about any human faction will be stronger than the Usurpers if both sides are left to build in peace for 100 years. But it does mean that victory in the game boils down to "How far away from each other did the players start?", which isn't very interesting .

[Basil]

quote: Originally posted by Blake on 03-10-2001 03:30 PM I'm also trying to work out how to stop them using fundie, personally I would prefer if they used frontier (Marr) and Demo (H'mniee)

You could force H'minee to run Democracy by giving her an aversion to Fundamentalism... the AI thinks Police State is a bad choice and won't normally run it unless it is the faction's agenda, so by banning Fundamentalism you leave the AI with only Democracy to choose from. Don't know how to get Marr to run frontier though... maybe you could give him an agenda of Frontier, but to do that you'd have to remove his agenda of Planned.

[knowhow2]

Thank you all for posting here and show interest. The topic, which could be misleading, is not that the Alien Faction are weak compared to the human factions but instead the rather disappointing AI performence in both SMAC AND SMACX. I guess my critique against the aliens were based on the fact that the human AI from SMAC eventually proved to be less than Intelligent, so I don't think it's so far fecthed to expect a some what more of a challenge from the expansion set (well maybe not). What I mean is this; the expansion is actually called Alien Crossfire and in the intro the voice saids; bla bla ....the humans are caught in a alien crossfire. The humans, that's us, we're not important. We're caught in their crossfire, I shouldn't be able to just run away from the AI. Especially not both of them at their prime. So please ignore the topic question and consider this instead; Shouldn't the Alien Factions be stronger for the sake of making the game more an Alien Crossfire. You should be able to choose a harder level, with both Alien Faction being at their absolute best and leaving you fighting for your life, at least more than 200 years.
Sadly with the game set ups the AI is just to predictable and doesn't provide with any challenge at all after less than 200 years (turns).

vee,

I don't have anything against you. Just that you hardly gave a good impression of yourself when the first thing you wrote was a complaint. People who visit here alot are mostly I would think adults who like SMAC a great deal. I mean lets face it, if you play a alot of computer games as an adult you're bound (right, wrong expression?) to be a person with humour (I hope). So JOKING is a good way to keep things sane around here. Well you seems to be alright so lets just keep ourselves at the topics from now on and let the differences aside, okey?
I don't know if you are looking for an apologize accepted or what, but I never wanted an apology so I am not gonna give you one. You didn't need to apologize to me. Maybe to those whom you actually did criticize. So there is no hard feelings what so ever from my side. So we should be alright.

[knowhow2]

I posted the same message twice so pay no attention to this one. Please erase this, operator?
[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 11, 2001).]

[cbn]

Basil

Was that a two player game with no AI involvement? I'm curious since I find the major strength of the Usurpers to be the ability to roll a faction or two early gaining a bunch of bases.

Your victory is probably a testament to your abilities and not necessarily a reflection of faction strength. Looking at the relative strengths the Aliens just look stronger. If there are AI factions the Usurpers should be able to subjugate some and run away in the number of bases.

If you are running a pure two faction game then I would favor the Caretakers. Looking at them side by side the Caretakers would have it all over the Gaians. The energy grid is extra energy since there would be no trade for the Gaians. The Gaians would have +2 efficiency, -1 Morale, -1 Police and an inability to go free market compared to the Caretakers -- no aversions, deep radar, space survey, defense bonus, extra techs and an extra pod and battle ogre. With extra techs and that important extra base to start I do not see where the Gaians would have any advantage.

Oh well I guess thats why this game is so much fun. Always stuff to discuss.

[Blake]

I would definetely say that Caretakers are stronger than Ursupers. Marr's lack of demo is painfull, it makes largescale expansion difficult. Altough running Police/FM/Knowledge gives -1 Effic, increased to +1 with CC's. Which is okay for a small empire, and has the bonus of going to war without drone troubles, especially if you get the AV SP.

Second, combat bonus. Marr has +25% attack. Which is nice, but thats it. Usually any faction with decent weapon tech should be able to easily overpower the armour of other factions. Possibly more usful is the fact the +25% cancels the -1 planet in psi combat, and then some. Great for isle battles.

However for H'mniee the +25% defense is really usful, this makes armour truly viable for caretakers. AND it increases Psi defense by 25% also. Combined with sensors this makes Caretaker worms very hard to destroy, if they are in a base forget it. This I consider is the single most unbalancing thing about the caretakers, the weaker faction can't use Psi warfare to nullify technology difference. The other annoying thing is the 3res defense combined with the +25% bonus makes there units almost immune to worm attacks, if you hope to suceed take the sensors out first!

So Marr's advantage's are - +25% attack, which is a minimal advantage for a faction with good tech. +1 Morale, nice n' easy to get elite units.

H'mniee on the other hand has +25% defense, making her units almost immune to native attacks, she also has +1 planet for capturing worms. Free units that are hard to kill. Nasty. She can also pop-boom and achieve +4 Effic.

Now my suggestion for improving the Aliens play and balancing them would be:

H'mniee:
Remove the +25 defense.
Free Tree Farm with tech.

Agenda: Green
Emphasis: EFFIC
Anti-agenda: Free Market (the concept really should make no sense to green progy's)

Marr:
Remove the +25% attack
Free Tree Farm with tech

Agenda: Police State
Emphasis: Economy

The latter should improve his play lots, but doesn't fit in with what the aliens are meant to be. Altough it would mean Yang and Marr should buddy up. Which I think is appropriate, after all neither care about commerce. Marr does well from Wealth, he avoids the horrible 1/2 morale bonus. Knowledge is a better choice, but I can't see how he can be made to use it and FM and Police State. I think Police state is a must:
Compare:
Fundie
+1 Morale -> +2, which is still +1 Morale, +2 on denfense. No advantage!!.
+2 Probe -> Units cost double to bribe, which is an okayish thing.
-2 Research -> Bad Bad Bad.

So the net effect is units cost double to bribe, tech go bad. Goody, I'm so excited.

Police State:
+2 Support -> Four free units per base. Lovely. Go conquer or build.
+2 Police -> Big bases w/o drone control, OR run FM and go to war.
-2 Effic. -> Small empires, early game, no problem at all. Later can be countered with CC's and building up interior bases.

So net effect is 2 more units supported per base, much less drone worries, no disadvantage in early game. Reasonable disadvantage later, but Marr can't do anything about it anyway, seeing Demo is out and green cuts growth rate too much. The Effic hit would be no worse than the -2 research from fundie.

So I'm sure you can see that if Marr had half a brain he would use PS in favour of fundie.

Now onto economics:
Free Market -> +2 Econ, all good. No drone worries thanks to PS. Planet already hates Marr so no loss. Already halfway to adaptive eco, so excellent chance to get PEG. Then roll in cash.
Planned: can't run with PS, Planned + Fundie is little better, you end up with bad effic and bad research.
Green: -> +2 Effic. Cancels the PS negative, but without demo you can forget about growth under green. Planet boost is so-so, Marr ain't there to make planet love him. I say crippled growth is bad for Marr, seeing he can't pop-boom. Steer clear from Green.

So that leaves FM.

Values:
Power: Same problem as fundie, +1 Morale -> +3 morale results in 1 more morale. Marr doesn't need that. He can already get elite units easily enough. +2 Support: This is nice, unlimited support combined with PS. -2 Industry: Countered in part by improved support. But AI's are usually low on minerals...
Knowledge: That +1 Effic is nice. +2 research is nice. -2 probe is blah.
Wealth: +2 - +3 Econ, slight advantage, no trade bonus though. +1 industry, never hurts to have better industry. +1 -> -1 Morale, this hurts much less than 0 -> -2 Morale. You still get maximum benefit from the morale boosting infrastructure.

So no value choice will make or break the game for Marr. Leaving the optimum SE choices:
Police State
Free Market
Any Value

And this can be got from either:
Agenda: Police State, emphasis Economy

Or, more flexible:
Agenda: Free market, emphasis Police
Which leaves any value open, but it just doesn't seem right for Marr to be ranting about people not running free market Ofcourse Marr will just find something else to rant about anyway.

H'mniee is much more flexible. She should use Demo, and any economics/values.

[vee4473]

Oh well,

Sorry for everything. I just took offense to your response to my post, and I think I was a little self-righteous. Yes, maybe I was,and i apologize, but..

If you ask me, americans have the most knowledge of other cultures throughout the world, simply because the United States is made up of people from the entire world. You cannot travel throughout the US without running into culture after culture from around the world. I work with a man who is from China and he has taught me alot about their culture. He showed me true Chinese food. Another guy I work with is from Poland. He talks to me all the time about polish food and the Christmas party he invited me to 3 months ago was a great introduction to polish celebrations. And he is my superior by the way, just to dispell any notion that only white american-born men hold positions of power in the United States.

I really do not enjoy this battle of words.

For some reason you harbor a resentment to the US. I apologize for whatever the US may have done to you or your family to make you so hostile.
And I apologize for my post, however perhaps an equal part of ignorance lies with the rest of the world. Many assupmtions are made of the US that aren't true.

But, I am here to educate any who buy into the falacy that Americans are nothing but ignorant boobs who eat burgers and fries all the time...(which I love..try it some time).

As i said earlier, I apologize if you thought that I was focusing my post on you. I obviously do not expect someone posting from Scandinavia to have a full knowledge of english. I was talking to Americans actually (they are the culprits, mostly, of incoherent posts...and it embarrasses me)..I should have made that clear.

I'm sorry. I'm done with this post.


And I must say that I think that your country produces some of the best vodka I have ever had the pleasure to drink. I wish to be your friend knowhow...I love Alpha centauri and it looks like you have alot of knowledge to share about the game. (and I am not that good at the game) Please say we are friends.

I don't want this to mean that if we ever cross paths in this forum again that we will be hostile to each other.

I'm sorry. I guess I am wrong.

What do you say knowhow2. Friends?
please?

I'm sorry if patriotism got the best of me.

And to "its like that",
You were not that bad dude. It just gets under my skin when I have to read a post 3 or 4 times to understand what someone is trying to say.

I come here looking for gameplay insight, which I know ALL of you have, but when sentences are jumbled, I get annoyed.

I'm sorry.

And if my confusion has to do with me not understanding the Alpha Centauri code language, I apologize.

[Horus]

One does get a bit aroused by the reading this thread. Anyone who have played a MP game with the two human (contradiction in terms, ehh ) aliens in team, against 3 or more (what would a decent balance be?) human opponents? Anyway, I would be in for such a game.