Looking for emperor strategies vs Germany

planetfall · February 14, 2003, 16:15

Started playing my first emperor game and need advise on how to play emperor.

Basic situation-- std game, 12 civs, 4 civs on my continent, leading civ-germany, is on my continent.

Score about the middle of the pack.

Problems:
-- Germany way ahead in culture
-- Germany at least 6 techs ahead
-- no other strong civs to align with vs germany.

What I have been trying:
-- research at 40 t
-- buying most techs
-- one war gained 8 techs

Civs left on continent are only about 2 techs ahead. No navigation so can't trade for techs unless trade with Germany. Don't think that would be a good idea.

Currently in start of middle ages, just got 3rd tech in era.

other than hoping for a miracle in the industrial age and expecting Germany to pull even further ahead by then, what would suggest trying between now and navigation?

Thanks for your ideas. Boy does emperor sure make monarch look like a cake walk.

== PF

notyoueither · February 14, 2003, 20:30

It sounds like you sacrificed too much to the military without using the military to deal with the largest threat, Germany.

Sometimes it is better to idle while you develop your cities, then go to war.

Theseus · February 14, 2003, 21:55

pf, c'mon man, we need much more info (if not a save).

With the little info you've given, I'd say:

KKNNIIGGHHTTSS!!!!

planetfall · February 15, 2003, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
pf, c'mon man, we need much more info (if not a save).

With the little info you've given, I'd say:

KKNNIIGGHHTTSS!!!!

What, more info? You got a lot. Mini map included.

More info:
land aread #2
MFG #2
avg shields/city 4-8, one at 16
happiness: 80%

Knights are expensive and will probably take about 10 turns, just got tech.

Techs needed for cav's, 6. Guess about 36-44 turns.

Have about 32 cities.

I can think of 3 different ways of playing this but don't have a clue as to which would be more effective.

Strategy #1-- knight war now
Delay even further building of lib/temples/aquaducts/markets and only build knights, then go on a massive land grab.

Strategy #2 -- cav war a bit later
Plant temporary cities for military units, could drop 11 more cities. In current cities build lib/temp/aqua/market/courthouse until get close to cavs and then prepare to build cavs.

Strategy #3 -- 1/2 knights and 1/2 builder
Put 1/2 of cities on building knights and 1/2 on other improvements. When have 15..25 knights begin war again.

Strategy 1:
Pluses-- active now, keeps Japan small
Minus-- Japan has samarai and will be harder big risk is they might ally with Germany and then really in trouble. I would have no one to ally with.

Strategy 2
Pluses: would have ability to carry out longer war, would have more cash for buying techs
Minus-- Japan will get stronger, I might find riflemen instead of samarai

Strategy 3
Pluses-- able to join in war if AI starts one, ability to upgrade knights
minus--- development could take longer than think. Knights might be ineffective by time get to war

{notyoueither}
Yes I missed how strong Germany was getting. I had never had to play vs a strong Germany before and they caught me by surprise. I was distracted by a strong and close annoyed Japan to pay any attention to a distant Germany.

Ok, is this better? Again looking for an approach to emperor level games more than what to do in this case. Is it buy techs and war every 10 techs, or what is your play style for playing emperor level games?

Thanks

== PF

planetfall · February 15, 2003, 12:24

Oh, a productivity aside. Alt-Tab

For those having trouble Alt-Tab 'ing between civ3 and paint, the secret is First to start paint and then start civ. If you start civ first, you can't Alt-tab, but if start paint first alt-tab works.

== PF

Dominae · February 15, 2003, 12:49

Just glancing at your minimap, I would say you've got this game won. Sure, a tech deficit is important, but not when you're dwarfing your opponents in production capacity 3 to 1 (at least).

My suggestion: crank out the Knights. You'll find you're in a far better position than you think.

Dominae

planetfall · February 15, 2003, 13:52

Thanks. I usually go for a production win type of game, but is not 3:1 yet, it is more like .9 to 1.1, with Rome having the .9. Remember there is a lot of the continent still unviewable with cities under the fog.

Thanks again for the advice.

== PF

Dominae · February 15, 2003, 13:55

I assume you mean 0.9 for Rome versus 1.1 against the rest of the world. This is a huge advantage. You really should be comparing your production power to one or two other civs, not all of them. As is, you're well set to dominate your own continent. You can begin comparing your civ to the rest of the world once you're master of your own domain.

Dominae

Datajack Franit · February 15, 2003, 19:25

I can't believe you're having troubles, after all your size is DOUBLE Germany's

Theseus · February 16, 2003, 01:48

PF, I think I know what you fear... that as a distant power, Germany could become a meaningful threat.

BELIEVE me, been there and done that.

In this specific case, it looks like you are just fine.

In terms of the general 'emperor' question, when such happens it can be a *****, but also quite fun. Good geo-political negotiations, and taking advantage of periodic military advantage... you'll be fine.

Master Zen · February 16, 2003, 02:17

Quote:

Originally posted by planetfall
Oh, a productivity aside. Alt-Tab

For those having trouble Alt-Tab 'ing between civ3 and paint, the secret is First to start paint and then start civ. If you start civ first, you can't Alt-tab, but if start paint first alt-tab works.

== PF

You can't Alt-tab but you can use the "Start" key (the one between the left Ctrl and Alt) to bring up the Start menu and open up Paint.

planetfall · February 16, 2003, 13:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen

You can't Alt-tab but you can use the "Start" key (the one between the left Ctrl and Alt) to bring up the Start menu and open up Paint.

Zen,

I understand and that is what I was doing for several months. Finally someone told me Alt-Tab will work if start some other program before starting civ. Menu+icon/menu item is much slower than Alt-Tab to get to paint. I was using paint each turn so was really getting to be a nuisance.

Anyway, thanks for the hint for those who can't get Alt-tab to work and don't want to stop civ3.

== PF

planetfall · February 16, 2003, 13:47

Opps, I didn't know FP would flip. This really sucks, lost one luxury and full corruption is back.

I thought FP with 5 culture /turn would be safe. Guess I have to reexamine the flip formula. Is it that corruption uses either FP or Palace while flips only use distance from Palace?

Back to game, why having trouble. Germany has more cities under the fog and is much stronger culturally, tech lead, and militarily vs me.

Worst happened, just before wanting to start war vs Japan, Germany declared war. I am battling cavs and riflemen with a few knights and legionairres. Finally I have 12 knights, but I can see at least 6 German cavs. I am 2 techs, about 12-15 turns from cavs.

Also most of German cities I can see are about size 12. WW has knocked happiness down to 65% at 30% entertainment. Finally stopped losing cities. {Lost 2: one to flip and one to germany}.

I got Iroquois to declare and next turn Germany wanted to sue for peace. Couldn't do it and keep reputation. About 8 turns til end of military alliance.

Current plan, {If you see something better, let me know}

1. treaten German city way to south,
2. Germany is starting a two prong attack so just slowly building up resources and fighting defensive war
3. sue for peace when military alliance is up
4. wait 10 turns and then attack Japan. Hopefully by then I will be able to get cavs. I really need those guys.

Now is 1100ad so only a few turns left.

Even with all this score has changed from middle of pack to number 4. With lost of luxury, FP and WW production in world has dropped to #3.

Why having trouble? I don't know, because the German's declared war. But what lead them to declare? It seems like they suddenly boosted their military and I was weak. Wny left America and Japan alone and go thru both of them to hit me, I don't know. I thought about getting Japan to go vs Germany but Germany had more money and has a trade embargo with Japan vs me.

So far, in terms of emperor, it is harded but not as impossible as I feared it might be. Going to plug away some today and see what I can do.

Thanks for the encouragement.

== PF

Dominae · February 16, 2003, 14:05

planetfall, if you posted a savegame you would get a lot more constructive comments. But there is definitely something to be said for going through with it alone...

Dominae

planetfall · February 16, 2003, 19:20

Ok, finally paid for world map. What a rip since AI values too much. But now know why having so much trouble with Germany.

I think I"m dead. Germany has RR, ironclads, cheap techs, huge tech lead, no one to combine with to attach. Ugh. To do or die, well it looks like I just got off to too slow of a start. But for those interested here is the minimap.

-- PF

planetfall · February 16, 2003, 19:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
planetfall, if you posted a savegame you would get a lot more constructive comments. But there is definitely something to be said for going through with it alone...
Dominae

Yeh, not trying to go it alone, but also trying NOT to have direct tactical advise. This is my first emperor game and naturally it plays a bit differently. I was hoping for ideas on strategies to use vs AI at emperor level rather than just tactics. This is civfan's GOTM, and didn't want to appear to be cheating by going to poly and getting tactical advice. Although now think about it it might be fun sometime to have a democracy type game with the GOTM. Note for thie GOTH you either need the special graphics or the bypass for the special barbarian graphics. They are really cool. Especially if you lose a galley to one!!! If you add units to any of your games you might want to consider getting this month's GOTM just to see if you want to use the graphcs in one of your games. Full directions are with the GOTM, buit be careful when you unzip that you select keep directories of you might keep the wrong ini file.

Here is save from current game. Besides graphis there are speical geographical changes from default civ3 settings.

So, then back to original questions. If don't want to give up and know strategies at lower levels don't work with tech price advantage at this level, how do you deal with a strong Germany who is cruising along looking for panzers? I don't have confidence other AI powers can handle an succesful invasion. I thought I could have Japan by now, but with lost of FP and no luxury, really hurting. I even thought of trading with Japan to get production up, but they want 2x what luxury is worth and with old embargos and no navigaiont, I am stuck here slowly lowing ground.

For tactics on dealing with Germany there should be something on civfan, but too much of their discussion is of the type "Look what I did, rather than "faced with this problem, my strategy was to ... and here is how it worked, or didn't work."

So much much production should go to culture? how much to military? Can you win at this level without going 100% military units? Just wondering and wondering..

== PF

Th0mas · February 17, 2003, 05:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen

You can't Alt-tab but you can use the "Start" key (the one between the left Ctrl and Alt) to bring up the Start menu and open up Paint.

Ctrl-esc definately works... even if CIV 3 has already been started. Especially useful if you have a keyboard without a windows key.

TacticalGrace · February 17, 2003, 11:32

Planetfall,

You should go for all out war with Japan immediately. Build nothing but nothing but military (90% knights, 10% pike).

Knock Japan down to one or two tactically useless cities and get peace. Make sure they give all their Techs. Now switch back to peace time.

Your next aim is to consolidate your winnings : build some pikes and catapults for defence. Get friendly with the buffer nation (america?) You need to get a ROP with them. Don't be afraid of giving up ex-japanese cities to America, especially if they were originally American cities. Aim for military tradition if you haven't got it already by this point.

two possibilities from here:
(1) get cavalry before germany gets infantry. Go back to total war against Germany. You will need America as allies (America will bear the brunt of any German counter attack). You shouldn't bother trying to take cities intact: raze any you take. Your culture is too low.

(2) Germany gets infantry too early: a cavalry charge is too costly. Wait for tanks and hope with the AI at the helm Germany will be unable to capitalise on the tactical advantage of panzers. Total war with mobilization. Don't be afraid of giving America all the tech they need to be effective allies.

planetfall · February 17, 2003, 12:00

Tactical,

Great advice. I definitely waited too long with Japan. Germany took out America in 2 turns. I have about 30 knights now but waited too long and Japan is now average. If get Germany to ally, then they will roll thru Japan and Rome. I see very limited options.

1. Bide time, build defense and slowly build up culture. Switch from offensive military to defensive military. Get silks on thin continent.

2. All out on Japan, fear it is too late for that. Will take 20-40 turns even if Germany stays out. My happiness is low at 66 % with no WW.

3. Redo. This is what I think I will do. Yes I will have a slight advantage in knowing the map, but I think it is more important to get some more expenience in the ancient/middle eras of the game than just slugging away for the sake of slugging away. I have been too fearful of AI early power and not taking reasonable chances. I think I"ll try to find a sav from before I lost the FP and see if I can replay better.

Again, thank you for your advice. I just realized I was blinded and was thinking I had to take out Japan in one war and forgot I could just as well use a series of smaller wars.

== PF