Economic Victory

[knowhow2]

I thought I should kick off this thread by telling you all another example of an economic vitory of mine.


I can't remember which level, but it's either librarian or thinker. Standard size map, oh, it was SMAC and not SMACX (pre-). I was playing Morgan, and 100 or so turn passed, in communication with all factions, and treaty with all factions. 4504 energy cred to corner global energy market, all the other factions were busy beating eachother up to notice me (well, all those, "friendship is a two way ..blabla"). But I didn't get a good rating (118%). Easy, but boring.

[Fitz]

Assuming we're talking Single Player:

I disagree. Diplomatic is the easiest. Here's my reasoning. 3/4 turns before you take the last enemy base (usually more), you typically have enough votes between yourself and your submissives to take the 3/4 vote margin. And as long as you have committed 0 atrocities (I never commit any), everyone will submit to your decision. Therefore, Diplomatic is easier because you can always get it before you can conquer.

Ascent is harder, typically, than conquest, because by the time you get there, you're so far ahead of the AI that you could have easily wiped them off the face of planet. In fact, I usually only win by trancendance when I am taking it very easy on the AI.

Economic is also easier than conquest, in a way. You can almost always pay to corner before you can conquer, since there are so few AI bases left on the conquer trail. BUT, it takes twenty years to go into affect. I usually corner the market routinely once I can get it for a few turns ec, then continue my conquering run. Wichever comes first is the way I win. Usually this is conquer, but if I left the AI alone for a long long time, I may win economic instead. Sometimes that's even before I could have done diplomatic.

I consider the order of dificulty to be:
Diplomatic (easiest)
Economic
Conquer
Transcend (hardest)

[RedFred]

I agree with Fitz on the Diplomatic victory being the easiest and quickest. Personally, I always play with random events on. That pesky energy market crash has thwarted me more than once. I have only rarely won by cornering the energy market. So for me at least, this method of winning is harder and more time consuming than transcending.

[knowhow2]

I still thinks diplomatic victory is harder to win with following arguments:

1. Conquest is easier to learn (childsplay)
2. Some factions will always defy you even if you haven't commit any atrocity against them (happened to me a few times, Sparta when I were UoP, Morgan when I were Hive and a few more)
3. If only one faction defy you, diplomatic victory is unsuccesful. Once that happens, you won't get another shot at it.
4. Submissive factions is considered as part of a conquest. Submissive factions doesn't necessary means cleared path to diplomatic victory (submissive factions can still defy you, also happened to me more than once)

I still would consider Economic victory harder to win than conquest, because you still have to wait 20 turns AFTER you cornered tha global energy market. Usually at this point your military power are so much greater than your opponent conquest would be a matter of turns (4-10).

And yes I meant SP, but I would also like to know (from you experienced people out there) if economic victory ever appears in MP.
[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 16, 2001).]

[RedFred]

Knowhow2, different people's lists may legitimately be different. Some will be natural conquerers, others will be natural builders.

I have had excellent luck with diplomatic victory as a means for a quick end to an unsatisfying game. This is in part due to typically staying with a noble rep. Nevertheless, I have won this way only about a dozen times as I find transcending the most enjoyable way of winning.

[knowhow2]

You play this game for the first time and you win it on conquest. Why? Because conquest usually is the easiest way to win the game. At least when you just got it and doesn't know all the details. Just build some ground and then conquer or build and conquer, you always need to fend off a few attackers anyway so keep at it and make some more rovers and kick some ***.
After awhile (or quicker if you are good at it), you learn that AtT is the best victory, the one with most prestige and most points(!), so you teach yourself to win a AtT as easy as you can. Well now you probably are GOOD at this game, you need more challenge or a different kind of challenge, aha Diplomatic victory, how can I be friend with every faction and get their votes, especially if you don't want them to defy you as supreme leader. Conquest doesn't stand a chance against diplomatic when it comes to level of difficulty (so why would both victory give you the same amount of points???)
Diplomatic victory is harder than conquest and perhaps easier than AtT (and by its right since you get less points). So what about economic victory? I would say it's harder than both conquest and diplomatic, a lot more harder (still you get the same amount of points minus the cost to corner global energy market) actually.

For example, I am playing a game right now with the intension of going for a eco vic. I am on the verge of finishing it off. The year is 2355 and I just cornered the global energy market. It cost me 24567 cred. So what is it I am paying for? There are a total of 5 factions including mine (peacekeeper). Two of them I have submissive to me (pirates and cult), pact with morgan (4 bases) and vendetta on a "almost-totally-wiped-with-nervegas-alien" usuper. So I could probably "clean up" usuper bases (10) and morgan bases (4, he probably will give up) in less than 10 turns (I got many many killalots = nervegas needlejets - I call them that with a new geno for each new weapon) so why would I normally go for a economic victory. It always takes so much energy that it isn't worth it. For less you can go for a conquest or even AtT. So my conclusion is that Ecomnomic Victory has to be the hardest (well, most circumstancial anyway) and most expensive victory there is.

Do any of you out there like Economic Victory, and if so why?

quote: Originally posted by RedFred on 03-16-2001 04:02 PM I agree with Fitz on the Diplomatic victory being the easiest and quickest. .....

Not for me. I tend to get a wicked reputation.

[Muzta]

diplomatic is easier the Conquest, think about.....you just have to conquer enough enemy bases to get a 3/4 majority

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Muzta on 03-17-2001 07:41 AM diplomatic is easier the Conquest, think about.....you just have to conquer enough enemy bases to get a 3/4 majority

Any thoughts on my FOUR arguments?

[Wiglaf]

I agree with knowhow2. A diplomatic victory isn't easy to attain because there's always a large faction that pops up. The only way to weaken that enemy is to use nerve gas (at least, it seems the fastest way) - once you do that, you lose the chance for a dip vic (I like that). Of course, you could just eliminate the faction, but that does take lots and loads of energy, troops, or whatever, and you may not even win (seasoned pros don't like to hear it, but hey). And odds are you'll be at war with that faction anyway because of the rivalry issue, meaning no votes from them. This coupled with the fact that you aren't always in the best situation makes diplomatic victories quite a challange on transcend.

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The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

[Sikander]

Very early in my SMACX career, I was playing the Pirates at Librarian level. I was fortunate to have a good starting position, alone in the Southern Hemisphere with good initial position, and a lot of empty land around. I noticed that with my large number of large bases, that I was in position to get a diplomatic victory (I had the Empath Guild also). I gifted some tech for votes (I was already Governor), and voila, a very easy victory. Now for the truly astounding part. I never saw or was seen (as far as I can tell) by any of the AI factions. Nothing close to this has ever happened again, and I'm sure that the difficulty level had a lot to do with my lack of contact. I guess in a way this game was a builder's dream.

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Sikander on 03-18-2001 07:57 PM Very early in my SMACX career, I was playing the Pirates at Librarian level. I was fortunate to have a good starting position, alone in the Southern Hemisphere with good initial position, and a lot of empty land around. I noticed that with my large number of large bases, that I was in position to get a diplomatic victory (I had the Empath Guild also). I gifted some tech for votes (I was already Governor), and voila, a very easy victory. Now for the truly astounding part. I never saw or was seen (as far as I can tell) by any of the AI factions. Nothing close to this has ever happened again, and I'm sure that the difficulty level had a lot to do with my lack of contact. I guess in a way this game was a builder's dream.

well when you put it this way then I can hardly disagree......

[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 18, 2001).]

[Skanderbeg]

I agree economic victory is the hardest way. I always play with random events on, on huge maps (which means more bases to pay for), I prefer not to run FM and Wealth, and I like to spend my money for rush-buildings. So no way to me to save 24.000 energy. I never have won with economic victory.

I have won one game on transcendent with diplomatic victory, with the Data Angels. I had two pactmates, which loved me very much, because I saved them from the Spartans by giving them bases, and submitted the cult. Believers were eradicated early by the Spartans. So only the Spartans voted against me, but I had more than 3/4 of the votes. Astonishingly, the Spartans didn't resist, perhaps because my hovertanks stood one square away from empty Sparta Command.

With Conquer and Ascendent, it is related to map size. On huge map, Ascendent to Transcendence is much easier than Conquer, because of the vast number of bases. In my last game, playing a conquering Morgan, I had 140 bases when I transcendented, and there were still around 50 AI bases left.
Conquering on huge map is a lot of work.

[Wiglaf]

quote: 3. Diplomatic victory unsuccessful if one faction defies you: no, it doesn't work that way. You need a 3/4 majority of the votes, not of the factions.

I'm not so sure about that. If you get 75% of the votes, it says you win. Sadly, if after you close that window one faction decides not to go along with it, you must then ally with the others and win a conquest victory. Now if the game wrongly calculates that as a diplomatic victory is outside of my knowledge, but if it did it would be a very stupid mistake not corrected in the manual or it's readme.

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The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited March 19, 2001).]

[Sir Hawkeye]

That is Rightly considered a diplomatic victory because you did receive the 3/4 of the votes. It is not conquest because your goal is one specific faction's destruction, no total occupation of Planet. It's not so much an invasion of enemy territory as putting down a rebellion in what is then rightly your own territory. It's not quite pure diplomatic victory, but it's more diplomatic than conquest

[Fitz]

knowhow (& SMACed) are correct. If only one faction defies you, after you win the vote with 3/4, then you fail a diplo victory and are foced to go for a conquer. However, I have only had this happen to me once, and it was because I committed an atrocity against the faction (after lifting the UN sanctions), and failed to eliminate that faction. Other than that, no matter how bitter an enemy seems, I've never had one defy my will.

Given that I'm usually dealing with 3-4 enemy factions with 5-6 bases left each when I call for the vote, they don't exactly have much of a chance of successfully defying me of course. And it probably helps that I'm almost always noble.

Edit: SH, you are wrong. The game consideres it a conquer victory if you fail to get the vote. That doesn't me you have to, of course.
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited March 19, 2001).]

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Walt on 03-19-2001 12:03 PM 1. Conquest is easy to learn: well, yeah, I guess. Some of us are Builders at heart, though, and it's not as easy to do in the early game as you seem to think it is. Especially on a huge map. For me, anyway, the game isn't fun when played that way, so I don't. 2. Some factions will always defy you: doesn't matter, you don't need their votes, just get 75% of the total votes on your own. You don't even need allies. 3. Diplomatic victory unsuccessful if one faction defies you: no, it doesn't work that way. You need a 3/4 majority of the votes, not of the factions. 4. Submissive factions: as pointed out, you can do it without 'em, so they're irrelevant. Walt

If you (well not you Walt, but someone) never played a game of SMAC before I bet that conquest would be the first thing that comes into mind (since most computer games works that way). But I agree that people will have different style of play and if you're a builder then conquest won't come as easy as diplomatic. But bear in mind that making other factions submissive is enough for a conquest victory which means that you DON'T have to conquer EVERY base, just enough to make your enemy submit to you (rather easy I would say).

I am not sure you understand what "defy" means. You can read about it in SMAC manual page 113. Anyway, if one faction "defy" you, the voting for supreme leader fails no matter how many votes you get.



Edt Not submissive, swear a pact to serve I meant
[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 19, 2001).]

[Walt]

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 on 03-19-2001 08:33 PM If you (well not you Walt, but someone) never played a game of SMAC before I bet that conquest would be the first thing that comes into mind (since most computer games works that way). But I agree that people will have different style of play and if you're a builder then conquest won't come as easy as diplomatic. But bear in mind that making other factions submissive is enough for a conquest victory which means that you DON'T have to conquer EVERY base, just enough to make your enemy submit to you (rather easy I would say). I am not sure you understand what "defy" means. You can read about it in SMAC manual page 113. Anyway, if one faction "defy" you, the voting for supreme leader fails no matter how many votes you get. [This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 19, 2001).]

You're right, I had forgotten that behavior. It only happened to me twice that I recall, both times very early in my SMAC career. I stand corrected.

Defiance, though, actually makes it easier to win a conquest victory. All the other factions essentially become submissive Pact-bounds. As long as you don't then commit further atrocities, they stay that way, and you have less conquering to do to win your victory. Sometimes it limits your targets to the point where conquest again becomes possible on a huge map. If you nuke the defiant faction, though, without lifting UN Sanctions, you have a problem. Everyone's back at Vendetta with you. Doh!

Walt

[Walt]

Transcendence really is one of the easiest ways to go in an SP game on a huge map. But the diplomatic option is just as easy. You have to be clear from the early mid-game that that's what your goal is, though, or try and fail at a conquest victory.

I'll address knowhow2's four points:

1. Conquest is easy to learn: well, yeah, I guess. Some of us are Builders at heart, though, and it's not as easy to do in the early game as you seem to think it is. Especially on a huge map. For me, anyway, the game isn't fun when played that way, so I don't.

2. Some factions will always defy you: doesn't matter, you don't need their votes, just get 75% of the total votes on your own. You don't even need allies.

3. Diplomatic victory unsuccessful if one faction defies you: no, it doesn't work that way. You need a 3/4 majority of the votes, not of the factions.

4. Submissive factions: as pointed out, you can do it without 'em, so they're irrelevant.

Most diplomatic victories on a huge map arise out of failed bids to conquer. There's just too much space to get around to conquering every base most of the time. But you can conquer enough of them to get a diplomatic victory.

If you're shooting for a diplo victory from the beginning, though, then you want the two vote-enhancing SP's, and the Cloning Vats don't hurt either. Contrary to the sage advice in Vel's guide, I've often found the Telepathic Matrix to be a handy late game tool for allowing rapid booms in new or conquered bases. They're not happy, but they'll vote for you anyway. :-)

The diplo mid to late game can be as much a Builder game as the Transcend victory. Instead of energy, though, what you're hunting for is population, so you'll make your SE and SP choices accordingly. You don't really care whether additional bases contribute to your economy. The main thing is, they contribute votes. So they get creches, maybe tree farms, and the cheapest drone control your SE settings will allow. They don't really need anything else. You'll still want high energy to pay for fast-builds of the above. But once the basics are in place, boom your base to 16 and start building pods.

Diplomatic victory should follow rather quickly.

Note, I'm only thinking about the topic as outlined above just now for the first time, so if someone can poke holes in the above, by all means, do so. If for example, votes are derived from more than population, the two SP's, and Lal's bonus, please say so. I think it's just those factors, though.

My two cents.

Walt

[Basil]

quote: Originally posted by Fitz on 03-19-2001 08:31 PM knowhow (& SMACed) are correct. If only one faction defies you, after you win the vote with 3/4, then you fail a diplo victory and are foced to go for a conquer. However, I have only had this happen to me once, and it was because I committed an atrocity against the faction (after lifting the UN sanctions), and failed to eliminate that faction. Other than that, no matter how bitter an enemy seems, I've never had one defy my will. Given that I'm usually dealing with 3-4 enemy factions with 5-6 bases left each when I call for the vote, they don't exactly have much of a chance of successfully defying me of course. And it probably helps that I'm almost always noble. Edit: SH, you are wrong. The game consideres it a conquer victory if you fail to get the vote. That doesn't me you have to, of course.

You can win a Diplomatic victory after a faction defies your election as Supreme Leader; I've done it. I was playing Morgan; the other factions remaining were Lal, Santiago, and Yang. When I had over 75% of the votes I called an election and elected myself Supreme Leader over the votes of Lal, Santiago, and Yang. Yang defied me, so Santiago (happily) and Lal (presumably less happily) set about conquering Yang (who was on the opposite end of the world from me), but before they finished the job I Transcended... and the game awarded me a Diplomatic Victory. Go figure!

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Basil on 03-20-2001 05:44 AM You can win a Diplomatic victory after a faction defies your election as Supreme Leader; I've done it. I was playing Morgan; the other factions remaining were Lal, Santiago, and Yang. When I had over 75% of the votes I called an election and elected myself Supreme Leader over the votes of Lal, Santiago, and Yang. Yang defied me, so Santiago (happily) and Lal (presumably less happily) set about conquering Yang (who was on the opposite end of the world from me), but before they finished the job I Transcended... and the game awarded me a Diplomatic Victory. Go figure!

Now when you mentioned it, this actually happened to me once also. But you have to agree that this isn't your regular diplomatic victory, right? It should have been a AtT victory and not a diplomatic. Maybe it's bug or something.


edt to sloppy


[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 20, 2001).]

[RedFred]

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 on 03-19-2001 08:33 PM If you (well not you Walt, but someone) never played a game of SMAC before I bet that conquest would be the first thing that comes into mind (since most computer games works that way

Although I have transcended hundreds of times I have only won by conquest once. And it was an accident!

It was a hilarious game. While playing Morgan I was able to secure Pacts with the two most powerful AI factions. They obliged me to go to war against their enemies. With a single attacking unit in two different foriegn territories I was able to wait until Deirdre or Zac cleaned all the units out of Miriam's or Yang's cities. Then I moved in and picked up a couple of free cities. Both Miriam and Yang elected to surrender to me, somehow. By this point Lal was out of the game. Deirdre asked me to go to war against Santiago and I obliged. I had no units near her territory. Nevertheless, when I contacted her and elected to stay at war with her she suddenly surrendered.

My suggestion is that many of the longtime Civ players would not necessarily play a conquest game. Many SMAC players played Civ first. In Civ it was relatively easy to play the whole game without firing a single shot against any of the other nations. (Barbarians were a different matter!). Civ II was more violent. By the time you got to work on your spaceship you could be assured that wars would happen. SMAC was more warlike and SMACX more warlike still.

[bondetamp]

Right. Nothing quite beats the frustration of waiting for MMI in a double-blind tech stag game.

But once you get it, though, conquest is fun and easy.

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-bondetamp
--
When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him.
-- R. A. Lafferty

[knowhow2]

Conquest: infiltrate, and then move and shoot and move and shoot till all the other factions are down.

AtT: build the right base fascilities, research the right tech, stay out of trouble or conquer one or two faction for research purposes. Don't forget to have a great balance for both energy input and mineral input.

Diplomatic: stay in noble and build and colonize, build and colonize till you have 3/4 of all the votes on the planet. And try to keep battles and conflict low.

Economic Victory: Get enough money so that you could buy all the bases in game (except for your own). Two ways to do that, 1st: keep rolling the creds in and 2nd destroy enough bases to make it cheaper to buy.

[Fitz]

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 on 03-20-2001 05:16 PM Conquest: infiltrate, and then move and shoot and move and shoot till all the other factions are down.

Conquest: Build up your industrial might, crank out units and facilities, and move & shoot, move & shoot.

quote: AtT: build the right base fascilities, research the right tech, stay out of trouble or conquer one or two faction for research purposes. Don't forget to have a great balance for both energy input and mineral input.

AtT: Build up your industrial might, crank out facilities then military units in between facilities, move & shoot until you get bored, then sit back & wait wait wait.

quote: Diplomatic: stay in noble and build and colonize, build and colonize till you have 3/4 of all the votes on the planet. And try to keep battles and conflict low.

Diplomatic: Build up your industrial might, crank out units and facilities, and move & shoot, move & shoot. Call an election once you have 3/4 of votes between yourself and submissives.

quote: Economic Victory: Get enough money so that you could buy all the bases in game (except for your own). Two ways to do that, 1st: keep rolling the creds in and 2nd destroy enough bases to make it cheaper to buy.

AtT: Build up your industrial might, crank out facilities then military units in between facilities, move & shoot until you can buy what's left with 3 turns worth of cash, then corner the market and sit back and wait wait wait.

[knowhow2]

Fitz,

you sound like a builder to me. And yes this game actually allows you to build yourself to victory, all kinds of victories, even conquest.

[Fitz]

How'd you figure that out. Yes, I'm a builder, but my point holds true, regardless of strat. You can always call for a dip victory a couple of turns before the final kill, and guess what, you probably have 3/4 of the votes. economic, try cornering right before you take the last base. You can probably afford it, but then you get to sit back for 20 turns and do nothing. Transcend, well against the AI you can usually win the game before you get to Hab-Domes, so you have to wait around for those last techs to get Ascent. The trick with transcend is to shoot straight for it as fast as possible without harrassing (and killing) the AI. Then it gets challenging. I just happen to think conquer isn't the easiest (although, after diplomatic, probably the fastest in game time).

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Fitz on 03-22-2001 01:41 PM How'd you figure that out. Yes, I'm a builder, but my point holds true, regardless of strat. You can always call for a dip victory a couple of turns before the final kill, and guess what, you probably have 3/4 of the votes. economic, try cornering right before you take the last base. You can probably afford it, but then you get to sit back for 20 turns and do nothing. Transcend, well against the AI you can usually win the game before you get to Hab-Domes, so you have to wait around for those last techs to get Ascent. The trick with transcend is to shoot straight for it as fast as possible without harrassing (and killing) the AI. Then it gets challenging. I just happen to think conquer isn't the easiest (although, after diplomatic, probably the fastest in game time).

Okey lets summon the situation you describe (well A situation): you are in superior position towards all the rest (one, two factions?). Okey what choices do you have.

Diplomatic: call a vote (remember that votes can only be call every 20 or 10 years - if you re the governor) and then hope that they don't defy you. If one stayed noble then one probably will succed.

Conquest: Unless you are the REALLY pascifist kinda guy you would have quite a handfull of elite troops sitting around waiting to strike. if you then do it right, I said 4-5 turns tops.

Economic Victory: corner global energy market: wait for 20 turns.

AtT: depdens on where you are on tech.

This was sort of my point, namely that economic victory is the most inconvenient victory of them all. Takes to much energy to win.

AtT at least gives you a challenge, economic victory is just plain dull.

[Blake]

I seem to recall my first actual victory was Economic, I started playing SMAX as Morgan, and using free market. Anyway I didn't know I was meant to *spend* my cash, and being easy difficulty and all I soon had a massive pile of cash, so I cornered the market and won. I was in no position to win any other way either, lacking the skill to conquer and the tech for Diplo (I lacked the skill to realise just how powerfull MMI is, so I didn't head towards it). I was a truly awesome builder, but if the AI's sent some impact squads I would almost roll over and die (then reload a few turns back and build a counterattacker)

Also I *almost* won my first MP game by economic, it was co-op IP with one other player vs AI's. I was Morgan. I builded and my ally tried to figure out how to play (1st time). Near the end I was raking in the cash, my ally was trying to capture enemy bases (they took them back). Eventually we decided to end the game, SUNSPOTS (doh). So I started to corner the market instead, I also built a big volley of planet busters. I researched Singularity mechanics, upgraded my planet busters and planet busted every last AI city on the map (and my Allies HQ, by accident!), a couple of turns later I would have won by economic (but AtT was also only a few techs away by that stage...).

[knowhow2]

I'm gonna re-alive this thread since the victories discussion is up on the board again. And also for having a slight change of mind.

Since posting here last (this thread) I've won many diplomatic vitories and just a few conquest (SPs that is) and I gotta admit that diplomatic comes easier when you play the game right (=an excellent use of crawlers and shooting for the right techs, building the best SPs and so on). But I still don't consider diplomatic victory an "easy" way to win for new players since the staying noble thing is hard if you new at this. If you fight a faction long enough they'll hate you even if you way more powerful and can easily win with 3/4 of the total planetary votes. So they defy you (which still means that the "unite behind me as supreme leader fails), defy doesn't equal "vote against. Defy appears first AFTER you won the election, instead of the message that the planet faction unite behind you as supreme leader you get a message that this and/or that faction defies you and therefor you have to win the game through another way. At this point all diplomacy is out, you can talk to neither you friends or foes and planet busting the foes won't (IIRC) get the others to turn against you since you already in their eyes the supreme leader. The only thing you have to do is killing of (well just conquering them is enough) all the remainder of those enemy bases. And when that happens you 're awarded a conquest victory.