Q: Efficiency warnings?

optimus2861 · March 12, 2001, 18:19

I have played several games of SMAC now and have yet to see the "efficiency warnings" that users here frequently speak of when dealing with early-game expansion and the extra drones that result from going past your efficiency limit. I have been playing on Librarian level, mostly, though I plan to move up after I'm done my current Hive game. I read through the entire manual, and it does mention that "your advisors" are supposed to give the warning. Is there something in the options I'm not seeing, that I have to enable to see these warnings? Or do I just have to suck it up and get off Librarian?

-Ian Merrithew

Lefty Scaevola · March 12, 2001, 19:03

The main effect of the eeficiancy warning levels is to increase drones. It may be hard to for a plauer to observe the increase drone when a number of base is exceeded, or the player may be in the happy situation of having excess psych benefits available through projects, facilities, & specialists, and thus not get any uncorrected drones.
[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited March 12, 2001).]

Sikander · March 12, 2001, 23:39

Ian,

You should see a popup window when you attempt to build a base which will put you over the limit. The window will explain what the bureacracy limit means to some extent, and offer you a choice of whether you want to continue placing the base. I believe the official name of the window is "Bureacracy Warning".

There are a few situations where you will not get the warning though you are over the limit. (Actually there is no one limit, there are several multiples ie trouble at 9, 18, 27 bases etc.). For instance you could be right at the limit, and then change your SE settings to a configuration which lowers your Efficiency rating. This would put you over the bureacracy limitation but you will receive no warning.

Skanderbeg · March 13, 2001, 05:43

Ian!

Additionally to Sikanders arguments, there is another way You randomly could pass the Bureaucracy Warnings.
You only get this warning when You try to build a base above the number
of 9, 18, 27 and so on. But there is a way getting bases withouth building them: Conquering them. If You have 9 bases and conquer number 10, You wouldn't get the bureaucracy warning, but You get increased inefficiency, and perhaps get drone riots. Have You ever get drone riots in more than one base the turn after conquering a base? Then this just had happend.

"You can go a long way with a prayer. You can get a lot farther with a prayer and an impact rover"
Sister Miriam Godwinson

Fitz · March 13, 2001, 15:52

Skand, you won't get riots in more than one base after conquering a single base. The extra drone(s) only appear in bases that exceed the limit, as determined by foundation date. So, if you have ten bases, and eleven is the 'over the limit' base, only the eleventh base gets an extra drone. Since the conquered base may have been founded earlier than your last base, your last base founded may be the 'eleventh base'. Your 'twenty first' base (in this example) would have 2 extra drones, thirty first three extra, etc.

Incidentally, if you want to see foundation order (also the order things are processed during upkeep), hit f4. The base screen shows bases in foundation date order. That's why a conquered HQ is usually right after your HQ (assuming you haven't relocated it).

Garth Vader · March 13, 2001, 16:11

AFAIK the extra drone is in a random base. Sometimes when I found a new base over the effeciency limit I don't get a drone in that base, but one appears somewhere else in the empire.

March 14, 2001, 14:18

quote:

Originally posted by Garth Vader on 03-13-2001 03:11 PM
AFAIK the extra .....

What's AFAIK?

Garth Vader · March 14, 2001, 14:44

As Far As I Know.

Fitz · March 14, 2001, 17:46

I think you're wrong Garth. I've never seen extra drones out of order. I haven't looked that hard to double check it's working, but I'd say I check it at least once every other SP game I play. The placement of the drones has always been determined by foundation date order in my games. I can't vouch for SMAC, but my MP Smac games seem to work the same way.

Garth Vader · March 14, 2001, 18:20

Well the reason I said that is that I just noticed it the other day in a MP SMAC game. I was past the effeciency point and so most of my new bases started with a drone. One base didn't but another base in the empire suddenly had one that it didn't before.

It's possible that I am wrong, some of my new bases didn't have a drone cause I had a scout at the base site already, I thought I had a few that were without drone and police unit, but I wasn't paying that much attention I was just glad I could build a former first in that base

mark13 · March 15, 2001, 14:59

I think Garth is right - I think it is a random base. If it wasn't, the base just founded would always start with a drone (at size 1) and most of the time, it does not. It is usually just a random base somewhere down the list - there is a chance that it is the new base, of course, but AFAIK it is an entirely random thing.

Fitz · March 15, 2001, 18:46

quote:

Originally posted by mark13 on 03-15-2001 01:59 PM
If it wasn't, the base just founded would always start with a drone (at size 1) ...

That's exactly what I am saying. When I am past my base limit, I expect to see the first worker be a drone. I haven't ever noticed it not being one.

big_canuk · March 15, 2001, 19:31

I am not sure, but I think the drone appears in the least efficient bases. That would tend to be your last established bases, but would in fact be those furthest from your HQ. I don't know if creches affect this, but I suspect so. It would explain the "moving" of the "random" drone.

Fitz · March 15, 2001, 20:56

If that were the case, you'd typically see the extra drones appear in conquered bases (typically the furthest from home), even if they were founded long before conquering. This is exactly the opposite of what I "think" I've observed.

Looks like some testing is in order. any volunteers?

Blake · March 15, 2001, 22:13

My (SMAX) experience is that drones can appear in almost any base, but not the HQ.

Several times I've placed one base over the limit and had several existing bases go into riot. I've placed bases over the limit and had the first worker a drone, then I'll place another and it wont be a drone.

In my version anyway it doesn't work out all nicely.

MariOne · March 18, 2001, 06:28

My (not conclusive, offhand) experience:
- after the 1st warning, I am SURE that the extra drone appears in a RANDOM base. That is, in ANY one of the bases you already have (except HQ, that might be true). I even reloaded the turn before the exceeding base foundation, for testing purposes, and got the extra drone in *different* bases each time.
- only when I have a big lot of bases, I begin to see new bases starting "almost" regularly with a drone (but NOT always).
- of course conquered bases tend to begin with more drones exactly because they're "conquered", it's even written in the Psych base display

Optimus, the Bureacracy Formula is something like
(8-Difficulty)*(4+Efficiency)*SizeMod/2

So, at Librarian, which is difficulty 3, and with normal Efficiency, you'll have 5*4/2*SizeMod, that is 10*SizeMod.
Consider that for Standard Planetsize SizeMod is =1, while for Huge is 1.6

[This message has been edited by MariOne (edited March 18, 2001).]

optimus2861 · March 19, 2001, 08:46

quote:

Originally posted by MariOne on 03-18-2001 05:28 AM
So, at Librarian, which is difficulty 3, and with normal Efficiency, you'll have 5*4/2*SizeMod, that is 10*SizeMod.
Consider that for Standard Planetsize SizeMod is =1, while for Huge is 1.6

That explains why I was never seeing the warnings, all right. I wasn't building past that limit. Last night, on a Spartan/Thinker/Standard game, I went to plonk down base #9, and up pops the bureacracy warning. So I called off the build and smashed a Believer base instead

. Miriam was nice enough to submit, too, since it had been her headquarters and I had her penned in (she didn't have lasers, rovers, or synthmetal yet! I couldn't resist). Gave the base back to get rid of the drone riot that happened in a nearby Spartan base due to the extra drone from passing the limit, and am now eyeing Deidre's 5-city empire across the seas to my west...

Ned · March 19, 2001, 14:31

I believe I have observed "random" drones, even in my home base, which normally has no inefficiency. Does anyone really know what happens when one passes an inefficieny barrier? Do you get one extra drone per base over the first barrier, two for each over the second, and so on? Or do you simply drop by -1 efficieny at each barrier. The latter can cause drones all by its lonesome.

Fitz · March 19, 2001, 18:47

quote:

Originally posted by MariOne on 03-18-2001 05:28 AM
My (not conclusive, offhand) experience:
- after the 1st warning, I am SURE that the extra drone appears in a RANDOM base. That is, in ANY one of the bases you already have (except HQ, that might be true). I even reloaded the turn before the exceeding base foundation, for testing purposes, and got the extra drone in *different* bases each time.

I'll take that as a test. Thanks Mario. Interesting that I never noticed this directly, but I'll take your word for it.

Edit: Do you know if the psych screen for a base with a beuracracy drone has a line that says 'beauracracy'? That would be the biggest confirmation.

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited March 19, 2001).]

mark13 · March 20, 2001, 20:35

Unfortunately not, although it would have been nice - it simply appears as a drone in the 'unmodified' section.

Ned · March 24, 2001, 02:22

I'd like to repeat my question, since I really don't know the answer. It is this: If one passes a "second" efficiency warning, does one get "two" extra drones per new base? And so on? "Three" extra after the "third?"

This seems to be my experience.

Ned