The Berlin Airlift - Page 2

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 21:26

We also have an American Plaza

Plateia Amerikis.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 21:26

paiktis, thanks for the commie take on things.

Say something nice about the US someday...or don't.

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 21:27

Already did.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 21:28

What caused them to name it that? What has the US done for Greece?

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 21:30

Depends on the way you look at this of course: will give you the one side:

"Saved Greece from the Red Menace and Recontructed it after WW2"

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 21:37

So, someday the Iraqis will have a 'George Bush II' street. We'll save them from Saddam, rebuild their country...

How much oil in Greece?

Spiffor · February 17, 2003, 21:38

I do not oppose the war for the same reasons as my despicable government. I oppose the war (like almost all Frenchmen) because I think this war will lead to nearly nothing good, but to the deaths of thousands civilians. I didn't like seeing 3000 innocent civilians slaughtered by an air attack some 11th September. I don't want to see thousands of innocent civilians slaughtererd by air attacks sometime in the future in Iraq.

Now, Chirac opposed the war for France's interests, as much as Bush pushes for the war for the US' interests. It would be blind to think any of these two countries is more moral than the other.

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 21:42

Not likely for Iraq

See, you did "save" us but not for our beautiful eyes nor for our kick ass performance in WW2, nor for our history but because you needed Greece in the west.

That means you did "things" in order to "save" us.

You gave tons of money but you supported fascists in the government to counter the "reds".

You even went as far as to support a dictatorship (all under the real or pretext way to counter the reds - in reality to install a regime that'd do your binding).

So we had to fight long and hard to get rid of you, and now many of us don't like you one bit

Much oil maybe in the Aegean which explains Turkey's hostility. Got some oil weils in the Aegean near err I forgot the name of the island

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 21:47

not that things were so pristine in Greece either. Lots of fascists, lots of commies. but your "contribution" left a very bitter taste, primarily to the left but to all those who value democracy

now unfortunately and with your help to turkey (we're talking about real important issues here) you're the scape goat, some times fairly, some times hugely unfairly.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 21:48

Spiffor, when we take Iraq in a couple of weeks, you'll see how the Iraqis have been dieing on the orders of Saddam.

Did the French cave when the Germans had the whole country under their heel? Hell no, the French fought...for freedom. People died and France is free. Some things are worth putting your life on the line for... yourself and your family...your nation. I don't see the Iraqis being any different. Americans and allies and Iraqis will die. In the end, Iraq will be free, and the world a safer place.

In spite of the actions of the French.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 21:53

paiktis, sorry about that. The Soviets had the force to overrun and enslave much of europe. Put many more people into their international prison system called the Warsaw Pact. In order to hold back the Soviets the US and allies had to do get in bed with some real dogs. Well, woof.

You use what you got.

Spiffor · February 17, 2003, 21:54

Comparing the future civilian casualties in Iraq to French resistors would be equivalent to compare 11th Sept's victims to freedom fighters. Nonsense.

Most of these people will have no control over their deaths or their engagement (unlike freedom fighters), and will just randomly get killed by bombs. Western bombs.
I wonder if Iraqis are ready to pay such a price to oust Saddam. Sadly, we'll never know.

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 21:57

not good enough I'm afraid

I'll just sing a famous for that era slogan: No to NATO, no to Warsaw, national idependence

Plus forgive me for not being wholly conveinced that it was for the reds only...

Just look at Venezuela now

It is also for furthering your interests

(which is totally OK if human lives are not wasted for it)

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 21:59

We don't know because they have no freedom of speech. (They are tortured and killed for even joking about Saddam) We will know when the country is freed and the Iraqis throw flowers at American tanks. Like, ahhh, in France when we freed your parents and grandparents from the same sort of oppression.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:04

paiktis, could Greece have stopped Soviet tanks? Could Germany or France? No, it took all of us together, whether you liked it or not you had to be made to serve the common good. Your ability to complain about it is a sign that it was the right course to take. I don't expext you to agree, you're too close, too...red.

Spiffor · February 17, 2003, 22:06

I hope you're right, but I can't help being in extreme doubt, to say the least.
Maybe because the only (Kurd) Iraqi I know rejects war out of fear for his family ?

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 22:07

The dictatorship killed and tortured sums under your protection

So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that or that this wasn't for the reds but for you instilling a puppet regime when Greece was to turn Socialist. Which it did, after overthrowing the dictatorship. The only thing you really accomplished was to piss a lot of people off.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:15

Sure, but you miss the point. It wasn't done for us here in the US, it was done to help defend what was left of europe as it recovered from its most destructive war ever. I'm not saying it was right, just that it is the kind of thing people do when put up against the wall. The US didn't want to live in a communist world and 3/5ths of the world's population was under communism. Europe didn't want to be crushed by Stalin's militay machine. Remember Kruschev "We will bury you" **** happens, that's why I said 'sorry'. **** happened to you.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:17

Spiffor, that's too bad. Call him after the thing is over...

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 22:18

To defend from the reds with every price, isnt good

To support a brutal regime just to further your interests, not good either

11 Sept = **** happens. It's the same you're saying to me now

Venezuela ring a bell, you tried the same there now and there isn't a "red threat"

Anyway that's old history. Forever remembered

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 22:21

This junta led to the Cyprus tragedy BTW.
And it was the excuse, if not the reason, for terrorist groups to show up and start killing (lots of american officials too - the CIA stationed chief of the US was the first to "pay" as they saw it)

Anyway, that's history

Now it's your support for Turkey that pisses people off (I bet there always will be something

)

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:22

I seem to contradict myself. What happened in Greece wasn't right, what happened in Vietnam wasn't right, but the effort against communism was right, it worked, this conversation is possible.

Paiktis, please start a Venezuela thread, I'm very interested to learn more, from all different viewpoints.

General Ludd · February 17, 2003, 22:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
We don't know because they have no freedom of speech. (They are tortured and killed for even joking about Saddam) We will know when the country is freed and the Iraqis throw flowers at American tanks. Like, ahhh, in France when we freed your parents and grandparents from the same sort of oppression.

And then what? You'll install a new dictator then go home and forget it ever happened, while the place goes to **** all over again. (only this time with more rubble and grief, left over from your bombing campaign)

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:25

Yeah, I'm not happy about having to give away the Kurds because of the Turks, but **** happens.

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:27

Osweld, yeah, like France w/ de Gaulle.

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 22:29

As I said Greece was far from pristine at that time. It's not healthy to scape goat the US all the time. Makes you blind to your own reality. But the US certaintly had much to blame as did many Greek groups.
What dark days these were... Glad to see democracy back with solid footing. But people died fighting for this to happen. The students uprising. Never forgotten, always a compass. *sighs*

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 22:31

There was a thread about Venezuela but the search system of Poly don't work so well anymore

Lancer · February 17, 2003, 22:36

The CIA got it.

Bereta_Eder · February 17, 2003, 22:37

The CIA ain't that bright

Urban Ranger · February 18, 2003, 01:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Zkribbler
It kept 2 million West Berliners free and provided a haven of freedom for so many East Germans that a friggin' wall had to be built to keep them all from leaving.

That is purely incidental.