ok, as the secrecy is broken ... - Page 2

Cyrion · February 19, 2003, 11:18

Quote:

Originally posted by jim panse
I realised that I would need many more unit slots but the civ2 engine has its limits. So I decided to ask you what do you think about having these multiunit gfx representing the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division. Commentz, please ...

They look great!

PDifolco · February 19, 2003, 11:22

(unit level discussion)
Well, the whole MG affair occupied a dozen of Allied divs (3 Airbornes - 1 Brit and 2 US- and 30th Corps, that has IIRC 7 or 8 brigades/divs).
On the German side it's more like 4 divs (2.SS, Luftwaffe troops plus a host of smaller units...).

Battalion level will results in approx 100 units per side (with many smaller than a real Bn on German side) : anything below will gives too much units, and higher will be too few...
So Bn level looks OK.

There's not much reason to make different units for equivalent Bns of different divs from the same country (such as 43rd and 50th Brits), except for immersion/looks. Anyway Civ doesn't include any support for organization at any level, so isn'it pointless ?

jim panse · February 19, 2003, 11:35

I think i´ll do it this way: Because this scenario is designed for a gigamap one unit represents one company/battalion (depends on the unit). I think that size is quite ok because of the huge map.

Quote:

Battalion level will results in approx 100 units per side (with many smaller than a real Bn on German side) : anything below will gives too much units, and higher will be too few...

This will come out with about 150 units for the germans and about 200-250 for the allies. Now I´m thinking about how much stronger the german units should be. Any ideas ...?

PDifolco · February 19, 2003, 12:09

Not sure to understand your question...
Why should Germans be "stronger" ?? The trick with MG is that Allies have Paras, those guys were toughs but were on foot and couldn't stand arty and armor by sheer willpower when they ran out of ammo at Arnhem !

I suppose the trick is to correctly simulate the arms strengths and weaknesses :
Paras should be "strong infantry" unit
SS inf also, but more mobile due to transports
Other germans should be rather crappy (LW garrisons...)
Arty must be offensively powerful.
Armor should be difficult to kill by infantry, and strong in offense also.

Allies should have air superiority allowing for some tank-hunting and possibility to make 2nd drops.
Civ doesn't allow for "supply drops", I don't know how this can be simulated.

Palaiologos · February 19, 2003, 12:45

Quote:

Originally posted by PDifolco
Not sure to understand your question...
Why should Germans be "stronger" ?? The trick with MG is that Allies have Paras, those guys were toughs but were on foot and couldn't stand arty and armor by sheer willpower when they ran out of ammo at Arnhem !

I suppose the trick is to correctly simulate the arms strengths and weaknesses :
Paras should be "strong infantry" unit
SS inf also, but more mobile due to transports
Other germans should be rather crappy (LW garrisons...)
Arty must be offensively powerful.
Armor should be difficult to kill by infantry, and strong in offense also.

Allies should have air superiority allowing for some tank-hunting and possibility to make 2nd drops.
Civ doesn't allow for "supply drops", I don't know how this can be simulated.

Keep in mind that since the allies will be the ones only playable, the German units must have increased stats to make up for the idiotic way the AI uses them.

Dr. Nick · February 19, 2003, 13:19

Are you going to be making 'village' terrain with high defense values? If so, the survival of infantry on 'mountains (village)' terrain should be guarranteed against Panzers.

Palaiologos · February 19, 2003, 13:28

As for the supply drops, these could function the same way airlifts do. A city in Belgium/France or England could be the base of operations and have an airport. There will be "supplies" units that must be airdropped to the operational zone. There will be a chance of German AAs intercepting them. Those supplies that do pass through can be disbanded by the player to build improvements and stuff. I suppose improvements will not be something like "stock exchange" and "SDI", but more WWII tactical oriented.

Just an early idea.

Gagliaudo · February 19, 2003, 14:01

Jim Panse:
Wonderful idea Market-Garden scenario!

And your graphics really promise very well...

I saw the movie almost 3 times, it' great.
And I read the book (by Cornelius Ryan), also great!

Good work! Don't let us waiting too much...

Gagliaudo · February 19, 2003, 14:09

The BritPara in Arnhem suffered a lot due hostile weather conditions, that didn't permit Sosaboswski and other brave guys to be paradropped there in time to help Frost & co.
Perhaps that bridge wasn't so far...

Dr. Nick · February 19, 2003, 16:57

If they had been encountered by old men on bicycles and Hitler youth the bridge was close enough to wrap up by tea time and enjoy a cup of Earl Grey.

BTW, British paratroopers had red berets.

jim panse · February 19, 2003, 17:16

Ok, let me see ...

(1)

Quote:

Not sure to understand your question...Why should Germans be "stronger" ?? The trick with MG is that Allies have Paras, those guys were toughs but were on foot and couldn't stand arty and armor by sheer will power when they ran out of ammo at Arnhem !

Well, the answer to this is that the Waffen SS units were something like the elite of the 3rd Reich (or supposed to be). Especially in combat they fought like devils (moretheless). And Palaiologos has another version of this:

Quote:

Keep in mind that since the allies will be the ones only playable, the German units must have increased stats to make up for the idiotic way the AI uses them.

(2)

Quote:

Are you going to be making 'village' terrain with high defense values? If so, the survival of infantry on 'mountains (village)' terrain should be guarranteed against Panzers.

Yes. I replaced not the mountains but only a "ordinary" terrain to make the cities larger. This was necessary due to the huge map.

(3)

Quote:

As for the supply drops, these could function the same way airlifts do. A city in Belgium/France or England could be the base of operations and have an airport. There will be "supplies" units that must be airdropped to the operational zone. There will be a chance of German AAs intercepting them. Those supplies that do pass through can be disbanded by the player to build improvements and stuff. I suppose improvements will not be something like "stock exchange" and "SDI", but more WWII tactical oriented.

The city improvements will meet the circumstances. The thing with the supplies will be a harder nut. The map represents only a small frame to make the tactics more important (as far as the civ2 engine makes this possible). It covers parts of the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany with the major rivers and channels.

(4)

Quote:

The BritPara in Arnhem suffered a lot due hostile weather conditions, that didn't permit Sosaboswski and other brave guys to be paradropped there in time to help Frost & co.

Well, you can inform you on various pages on the www, mainly the officials of the US Army and the Royal Army.
Fact is that only one small troop - Frost´s - made its way to the bridge in Arnhem. And one battalion against a SS Panzerkorps is not that much. However, I won´t judge this any longer. Since you all may have seen the brilliant movie that it could have been more than one reason ....

Quote:

It was Nijmegen...

or

Quote:

It was before Nijmegen....

or

Quote:

It was the fog in England....

This you may decide on your own

Dr. Nick · February 19, 2003, 17:32

The single road to Nijmegen!

fairline · February 19, 2003, 17:53

If you haven't already found it, a great site for maps and OOBs is this:

http://www.marketgarden.com/new/frames.html

Boco · February 19, 2003, 18:27

955 Pz Div looks a lot like 9SS Pz Div to optical recognition software.

jim panse · February 19, 2003, 18:41

Quote:

If you haven't already found it, a great site for maps and OOBs is this: http://www.marketgarden.com/new/frames.html

Yes, I found this page but I have to confess that my personal favourite is www.remeberseptember1944.com.

ad 9th SS Panzerdivision: I found an order of battle describing the strenght of this division like this:
32 PzKpfw IV, 49 PzKpfw V Panther, 21 Jagdpanzer IV, 28 StuG III. What do you say?

and for the 10th SS Panzerdivision:
28 PzKpfw IV, 58 PzKpfw V Panther, 20 Jagdpanzer IV, 28 StuG III. And about this?

And some other useful links:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...rzeichnis1.htm
A good page, dedicated to the German Wehrmacht but complete in german but with additional information about anything carrying weapons in Germany after WW1.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/index.htm
Another very good and detailed page where you'll be able to find information on World War II vehicles, their history (with some photos), and their specifications.

and last but not least ...
http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/index.htm
This is a site about the history of the 3rd Reich and its allies.

At the end of February 19th some units from the scenario ...
British 1st Airborne Infantry, US 101st Airborne "Screaming Eagles", US 82nd Airborne "All American", XXX Corps Infantry Platoon/Company, XXX Corps MG Platoon/Company, XXX Corps Field Artillery Battery, XXX Corps PIAT Platoon/AT-Company, XXX Corps MG Platoon/Company

It seems that there are two MG Platoons/Companies. This will not be in the release version

For anybody who doesn´t know what PIAT stands for: Projected Infantry Anti-Tank.

fairline · February 19, 2003, 18:56

Quote:

Originally posted by jim panse

Yes, I found this page but I have to confess that my personal favourite is www.remeberseptember1944.com.

ad 9th SS Panzerdivision: I found an order of battle describing the strenght of this division like this:
32 PzKpfw IV, 49 PzKpfw V Panther, 21 Jagdpanzer IV, 28 StuG III. What do you say?

and for the 10th SS Panzerdivision:
28 PzKpfw IV, 58 PzKpfw V Panther, 20 Jagdpanzer IV, 28 StuG III. And about this?

I have a couple of books by Nafziger giving detailed OOBs and strengths for the German Army. For 12 september 44 it lists:

9SS: 28 JagdPz IVs, all other tanks transferred to 10SS
10SS: 39 Pz IV, 38 StuGs - Panthers and I think Tigers were rapidly transferred once fighting got underway

for 26th september 9SS: 27 StuGs +2 Panthers
for 12 October, 10SS: 10 Panthers + 25 en route, 2 Pz IVs + 34 en route
for 12 October

Quote:

For anybody who doesn´t know what PIAT stands for: Projected Infantry Anti-Tank.

thats Projector - sorry to be a smart arse

jim panse · February 20, 2003, 06:31

Quote:

9SS: 28 JagdPz IVs, all other tanks transferred to 10SS

That´s fine to know.

Quote:

10SS: 39 Pz IV, 38 StuGs

That´s even more better to know.

Quote:

Panthers and I think Tigers were rapidly transferred once fighting got underway

From where and when did they arrive???

Quote:

for 26th september 9SS: 27 StuGs +2 Panthers

Thus were some reinforcements?

Quote:

for 12 October, 10SS: 10 Panthers + 25 en route, 2 Pz IVs + 34 en route

From where and at what time did they arrive?

jim panse · February 20, 2003, 11:31

I have a solution to present!

The supplies of the Paratroopers will arrive event-based (nothing too new in particular).

I´ve included some special terrains I will call "Drop Zones" (Ttese terrains are posted below). This is not only some special terrain but you may also see a Horsa Glider on it. The supplying will work like this: If you control/hold the square with the Horsa Glider you will receive supplies and reinforcements from time to time on this square. If the enemy holds this square ... well, you know that there won´t pop up some units.

Commentz, please ....

o

good idea

o

crap!

The ANZAC · February 20, 2003, 12:05

Intersting. I think it could simulate it well. Just make sure the AI pushes the Allies out of the area and it is hard for them to hold on it, just like in real life. Otherwise good

Dr. Nick · February 20, 2003, 12:48

I once heard that if you gave a sea transport the "paradrop" flag, you could use it as a glider, as sleeping units in the city from which it is paradropped would be transported by air.

I haven't tried it, but it's an idea.

DarthVeda · February 20, 2003, 14:05

The ANZAC · February 20, 2003, 17:05

Actually Nemo does just that in Second Front. But the only problem with that is you want to make sure the paras land in the right spot and their isn't any variation. I can see people dropping the troops in other places to escape event created enemy units.

Dr. Nick · February 20, 2003, 17:40

Hmmmm, good point.

Palaiologos · February 20, 2003, 17:57

The drop zone graphic lacks shadow on the horsa glider.Good idea though!

BTW,El Awrence are you sure the phrase was "the single road to Nijmegen"?

jim panse · February 20, 2003, 22:02

Maybe I´ll post a screenshot of the map but as I told you before: The map only covers a very small frame and there is no channel or something like this ...

Till later ...

jim panse · February 21, 2003, 06:11

The map is a gigamap and due to the cause I haven´t found something else I decided to rotate the whole scenario 90°.

Well, down you should see a screenshot of the map with some numbers. I´ll explain them now:

1 - Arnhem Area
2 - Nijmegen Area
3 - Eindhoven Area
4 - Maastricht
5 - Kerkrade
6 - Essen
7 - Duisburg
8 - Düsseldorf
9 - Köln (Cologne)
10 - Bonn
11 - Oosterbeek
12 - Reichswald (Reichs Wood)
13 - Siegfried Line
14 - Ijssel Sea
15 - Utrecht
16 - Amsterdam
17 - Mönchengladbach

I - Drop Zone of the 101st Airborne
II - Drop Zone of the 82nd Airborne
III - Drop Zone of the 1st Airborne

The allied positions in the morning of September 17 are in the right edge of the map (coloured red).

Sorry to post it as a *.zip file but it is to big.

This map ist still under construction.